Author Topic: How Did Luke Know There Was Good In Anakin.
rsterling78  4926 posts
Registered: May '02
7008_Clone Sergeant
Date Posted: 1/17 9:01pm Subject: RE: How Did Luke Know There Was Good In Anakin.
drg4 posted:
In essence, Luke sees good in his rotter of a father because he's an Amidala. Amidalas, you see, possess the uncanny ability to look past nasty little transgressions like child slaughter, cosmocide, and hand-severings.

Amidalas are really obnoxious people.



Funny stuff!

Maybe Vader used the Force to realize that the Rebels were going to win. Vader knew he was going to be blown up with the station. So why not switch sides at the 11th hour? Maybe he hoped he could throw Palpatine into the "rather odd chasm leading to the reactor core without any guard rails" before he sustained too much Sith lightning damage. Then he'd say to Luke, "Let us leave, my son." Then, as reach the ship, Vader Force-pushes Luke into the wall and says, "All too easy."

This sort of thing has been brought up before:


To put it in perspective, let's imagine that the United States and its allies managed to capture Adolf Hitler at the end of the Second World War, putting him on trial for war crimes. The prosecution spends months listing all the horrors done at his behest. Then it is the turn of Hitler's defense attorney, who rises and utters just one sentence:

"But, your honors ... Adolf did save the life of his own son!"

Gasp! The prosecutors blanch in chagrin. "We didn't know that! Of course all charges should be dismissed at once!"

The allies then throw a big parade for Hitler, down the avenues of Nuremberg.

It may sound silly, but that's exactly the lesson taught by "Return of the Jedi," wherein Darth Vader is forgiven all his sins, because he saved the life of his own son.

 

Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
LawJedi  460 posts
Registered: Jan '09
48671_Ziro the Hutt (617091)
Date Posted: 1/18 5:32pm Subject: RE: How Did Luke Know There Was Good In Anakin.
Well, Vader had been acting pretty passive aggressive since finding out that he had a son. It's been pointed out in the past that Vader never seems to choke any rebels in ESB or ROTJ. As the saga progresses, his Force choking seems to be focused on his own servants. It almost suggests that he's choking them out of disgust for the Empire, rather than just punishment for failure. Not so much an act of good, but a sign that he's disgusted with his own role in this whole affair.

There are no instances of Vader mistreating the rebels after ANH. Yes, he tortures Han. Couldn't you argue that this was to tempt Luke?

rsterling78 posted:

It may sound silly, but that's exactly the lesson taught by "Return of the Jedi," wherein Darth Vader is forgiven all his sins, because he saved the life of his own son.


Granted, Luke is the only one who appreciates this gesture. The rest of the galaxy isn't exactly erecting statues to the Big Evil Black Chokey guy. The EU (for what that's worth) suggests that Luke is given credit for the death of the Emperor. It would be a tough situation to explain.

 

-----signature-----
"Retcon is your friend in Star Wars." -Dave Filoni
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Master_Starwalker  17414 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Sep '03
47761_Darth Millenial
Date Posted: 1/18 9:18pm Subject: RE: How Did Luke Know There Was Good In Anakin.
LawJedi posted:
Well, Vader had been acting pretty passive aggressive since finding out that he had a son. It's been pointed out in the past that Vader never seems to choke any rebels in ESB or ROTJ. As the saga progresses, his Force choking seems to be focused on his own servants. It almost suggests that he's choking them out of disgust for the Empire, rather than just punishment for failure. Not so much an act of good, but a sign that he's disgusted with his own role in this whole affair.


He's also never put in a situation where he could choke any Rebel other than Luke, Leia, Han, Lando, or Chewie after A New Hope.

LawJedi posted:
There are no instances of Vader mistreating the rebels after ANH. Yes, he tortures Han. Couldn't you argue that this was to tempt Luke?


It was, but torturing Leia, Chewie, and Han would still qualify as at the very least 'mistreatment' regardless of his motives.

 

-----signature-----
"Imaginary is the future. Always now, even eternity will be." - Yoda
"We can never obtain peace in the outer world until we make peace with ourselves." - The 14th Dalai Lama
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
LawJedi  460 posts
Registered: Jan '09
48671_Ziro the Hutt (617091)
Date Posted: 1/18 11:29pm Subject: RE: How Did Luke Know There Was Good In Anakin.
Well, my post was mostly a joke, but wasn't the torture of Han, Leia and Chewie (if they were all really tortured) just to draw in Luke?

Mistreatment, sure. But he's not treating them like Captain Antilles. He didn't even choke out Leia when Luke arrived. He stopped Boba from shooting Chewie and Threepio. What does he care?

Then there's his foregiveness of Piett. He seems to genuinely like this guy, unlike the other Imperial knuckleheads.

Face it, he's gone soft. Anyone could see it.

 

-----signature-----
"Retcon is your friend in Star Wars." -Dave Filoni
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Master_Starwalker  17414 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Sep '03
47761_Darth Millenial
Date Posted: 1/19 11:57am Subject: RE: How Did Luke Know There Was Good In Anakin. - Date Edited: 1/19 11:57am (1 edits total) Edited By: Master_Starwalker
LawJedi posted:
Mistreatment, sure. But he's not treating them like Captain Antilles. He didn't even choke out Leia when Luke arrived. He stopped Boba from shooting Chewie and Threepio. What does he care?


He doesn't want an unnecessary firefight which could risk damaging the equipment. Han's willingly consigning himself to being frozen in carbonite and so there's no need for a battle.

LawJedi posted:
Then there's his foregiveness of Piett. He seems to genuinely like this guy, unlike the other Imperial knuckleheads.
Face it, he's gone soft. Anyone could see it.


Right, but that's primarily the fact that on the whole Piett is competent. Vader presumably knows that Cloud City's technicians didn't fix the hyperdrive and would thus assume that someone on board had repaired it. Needa and Ozzel on the other hand both failed and thus were executed.

 

-----signature-----
"Imaginary is the future. Always now, even eternity will be." - Yoda
"We can never obtain peace in the outer world until we make peace with ourselves." - The 14th Dalai Lama
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
celera  407 posts
Registered: May '02
24190_Owen and Beru
Date Posted: 4/3 8:28pm Subject: How Did Luke Know There Was Good In Anakin.
drg4 posted:
In essence, Luke sees good in his rotter of a father because he's an Amidala. Amidalas, you see, possess the uncanny ability to look past nasty little transgressions like child slaughter, cosmocide, and hand-severings.

Amidalas are really obnoxious people.



LMAO!!! But you forgot to include attempted murder. Padme was able to forgive Anakin despite the fact that he choked her. It's easy to see why Luke was able forgive Mara for trying to kill him. I just read Dark Force Rising again, when Han is thinking about Luke saving Mara's life after the Katana battle, he speculated that it must have been a Jedi thing he didn't understand. No Han, that was an Amidala thing.

 

Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Eternity85  336 posts
Registered: Jan '08
19354_Tusken Raider
Date Posted: 4/4 1:26am Subject: How Did Luke Know There Was Good In Anakin.
Lucas himself said that Anakin/Vader isnt forgiven for all the evil he has done, but when he saves Luke he does stop the horror, and then he redeem himself in the eyes of his son. Thats it, he will never be forgiven, but he did put an end to evil.

 

-----signature-----
" Your eyes can deceive you, do not trust them."
- Obi Wan Kenobi
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
jedibri  4109 posts
Registered: Jul '00
24124_Indiana Jones
Date Posted: 4/4 3:52am Subject: How Did Luke Know There Was Good In Anakin.
"He could feel it" is a cop-out of sorts.

I think it's more complicated than that. How about the fact that Vader didn't kill him. Say what you will but that speaks volumes to me.

Some will say Vaer had to obey his Master. Ok, fine. But, you can't tell me that if Vader knew Luke was to be his sucesser he wouldn't have axed him off. Why would Vader willingly hand over his sucesser knowing it would mean he was done? That makes no since at all.

 

-----signature-----
Isaiah 41:13
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
xx_Anakin_xx  1824 posts
Registered: Jan '08
45272_Cade Skywalker
Date Posted: 4/4 6:23am Subject: How Did Luke Know There Was Good In Anakin. - Date Edited: 4/4 6:35am (3 edits total) Edited By: xx_Anakin_xx
Luke knew Vader still had good in him because he sensed it through the Force. Obi-Wan wasn't bothering to try and sense anything; Yoda was too distant to sense anything; Palpatine knew also; Qui-Gon knew in Novel land; Padme knew *somehow* and Leia didn't know Force from trees so she had no clue. And of course, Vader knew also, it was the bane to his existence. (And of course one of my biggest beefs with the EU, where every single solitary Force sensitive that comes into contact with Vader somehow senses it also - generally immediately silly )

Eternity85 posted:
Lucas himself said that Anakin/Vader isnt forgiven for all the evil he has done, but when he saves Luke he does stop the horror, and then he redeem himself in the eyes of his son. Thats it, he will never be forgiven, but he did put an end to evil.


Yeah, but the thing is, Lucas only says what's on his mind on any given day. The fact is, most of the GFFA didn't know who Vader was. They hated and never forgave him (except some imperials who loved him), but at the same time, most still revered and loved Anakin Skywalker, the great Jedi hero. So the dude was being lauded and damned in minds of the GFFA folk at the same time. In essence, it didn't matter at all because Anakin never had to face the music as Vader within the GFFA. He became one with the Force - the best of great possible outcomes for the Jedi.

So taking all of that into consideration, independent of what kind of mood Lucas is in, he gave Anakin a traditional fairy tale, hero's ending.

 

-----signature-----
I say we put together a 'kill squad' and assassinate
Darth Krayt. Who's with me?
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
snelson  945 posts
Registered: Aug '05
47733_Vrook
Date Posted: 4/4 8:26am Subject: How Did Luke Know There Was Good In Anakin.
vader was forgiven when he went to the netherworld i believe. nd yes many good people refused to forgive anakin even leia... untill she found shmi's diary.

 

-----signature-----
I Love 1930'S 1940'S 1950'S Movies
Hermione Granger Is A Beautiful Witch
Dreaming Of Jeannie
Olivia DeHavilland Still Kicking At 93
Daniel Radcliffe Is So Sweet Like Harry
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
drg4  822 posts
Registered: Jul '05
24121_Padme
Date Posted: 4/4 1:25pm Subject: How Did Luke Know There Was Good In Anakin.
celera posted:
drg4 posted:
In essence, Luke sees good in his rotter of a father because he's an Amidala. Amidalas, you see, possess the uncanny ability to look past nasty little transgressions like child slaughter, cosmocide, and hand-severings.

Amidalas are really obnoxious people.



LMAO!!! But you forgot to include attempted murder. Padme was able to forgive Anakin despite the fact that he choked her. It's easy to see why Luke was able forgive Mara for trying to kill him. I just read Dark Force Rising again, when Han is thinking about Luke saving Mara's life after the Katana battle, he speculated that it must have been a Jedi thing he didn't understand. No Han, that was an Amidala thing.


Instead of spouting all that "Give into your hate" malarkey, the Emperor should have just listed all the lousy things Vader did.

E: "You know, he killed a lot of kids."

L: "I feel the good in him."

E: "Choked your mother, too. While she was carrying you, no less. Don't you love your mother?"

L: "I...feel the good in him."

E: "Your aunt and uncle...who do you think sent down the detachment?"

L: "I (coughs)..."

E: "Obi-Wan was a really good mentor, wasn't he? How long were you two together...three days?"

L: "Two! No, wait!! I feel the good in him!"

E: "Think you'll ever have another friend like Biggs?"

L: "Feel the goodnhmmm..."

E: "And how many times did he torture your sister? And what exactly did he do to her? Do you think she's still a virgin?"




Luke snaps. Vader's toast. Emperor wins. Movie's over.

 

Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
snelson  945 posts
Registered: Aug '05
47733_Vrook
Date Posted: 4/4 4:27pm Subject: How Did Luke Know There Was Good In Anakin.
here are some good things vader did

he killed the stormtroopers before they killed galen.
he let galen live after being too distracted.
he mourned galen's death.
he would not kill luke even if he wanted to.
he wept in private over padme (refer to that picture of him in his meditation room).
he let piett lived after he erred twice.
he mourned tao's death and buried him bet palpatine was furious

padme was right about him same as luke.

 

-----signature-----
I Love 1930'S 1940'S 1950'S Movies
Hermione Granger Is A Beautiful Witch
Dreaming Of Jeannie
Olivia DeHavilland Still Kicking At 93
Daniel Radcliffe Is So Sweet Like Harry
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
RedSeven  83 posts
Registered: Jun '07
43407_Luke Skywalker - Endor
Date Posted: 4/11 1:07pm Subject: How Did Luke Know There Was Good In Anakin.
The Force, most likely.

 

-----signature-----
May the Force be With You!
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
KissMeImARebel  3772 posts
Registered: Nov '03
48516_Tycho Celchu (524092)
Date Posted: 4/19 12:57pm Subject: How Did Luke Know There Was Good In Anakin.
I think the safe answer is to go with The Force.

But...that's always seemed a little off to me. When did Luke supposedly sense this goodness in Vader? Last time they met in ESB Vader brutally attacked Luke, then tried to lure him towards the Empire/Dark Side. I'm willing to buy Luke sensing some "good" and "conflict" in Vader after Luke is captured on Endor, but not so much before this.

I think that Luke believed there was good in Vader because he chose to. Because if there was no hope for Vader, then that meant Luke would have to follow Yoda and Obi-Wan's counsel and kill Vader. And that wasn't something that Luke was willing to do; it wasn't the type of Jedi he wanted to be.

 

-----signature-----
Waru's Sword of Truth
RebelMollom of The Kind
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
DarkLiberator 
Registered: Jul '09
24210_Darth Sidious
Date Posted: 7/5 10:43pm Subject: How Did Luke Know There Was Good In Anakin.
When vader didnt kill luke in tesb he felt and due to vaders actions sensed he had good in him.

 

Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History