Author Topic: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved
metalbikini 
Registered: Dec '08
23526_Leia
Date Posted: 12/16/08 11:10pm Subject: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved - Date Edited: 12/16/08 11:22pm (3 edits total) Edited By: metalbikini
Recently I watched the entire saga, for only the second or maybe third time since it has been all over. Now that everything we know is out there, I have begun wanting to understand them as a whole. There are many contradictions in the movies that have been driving me mad, and I have been trolling forums on the internet looking for answers.

The new dialogue in the Vader/Emperor scene in ESB reaffirms that Vader wants to overthrow the Emperor with Luke. He clearly knows Luke is his son from the beginning of the movie, so "How is this possible?" is certainly a lie. And his intentions are made clear at the end of the movie when he spells it out to Luke a la "We can rule the galaxy as father and son."

This subplot has never really captured my full attention before, although in hindsight it is there in the old versions of the film. I see two contradictions in it, however, so I set out to get to the bottom of it. I think I have a good theory that is plausible and leaves no loose ends.

Three Key Scenes -

Vader and the Emperor Transmission
In this scene, whether the old or the new version, it becomes clear that Vader wants Luke to help him overthrow the emperor. For the past twenty years, there was nothing he could do about Palpatine's dominance over him, but now there is. Even without the new "How is this possible" line, I believe that this motive was always there. So, Vader wants Luke so he can replace the Emperor, and the Emperor wants Luke to replace Vader. The Emperor knows of Vader’s plans, and Vader knows he knows. I don’t, however, believe Vader knows of the Emperor’s plans to get rid of him. Good because it is classic Sith behavior, as we now know.

Luke Surrenders on the Forest Moon
All is well and good so far. The inevitable contradiction for me was the "I MUST obey my master" line. If he wanted to oust his master, why does he appear so loyal? But think about it for a minute. He makes it clear he's not going to turn good and run away and join the rebels with Luke. ("It is too late for me, son.") So his only other choice is to take him to the Emperor. He is saying that he must obey his master, that he has no other choice, not proclaiming loyalty. It's a misinterpreted line. So up they go to the throne room...
(The same thing applies in Empire Strikes Back. Vader tries to get Luke in the Carbon Freeze and take him to Palpatine because he no longer has a choice in the matter- his boss knows what he's up to.)

The Finale
The big contradiction in this scene is the infamous lightsaber block. I've seen a number of threads about it on this forum while doing my research recently. The problem: If Vader wants the Emperor dead, why would he stop Luke from taking a saber to him? This is the tougher one. Some plausible solutions:

1)Fear.
Vader is the Emperor's b****. The Emperor saved him after Mustafar, and could kill him at any time. Vader is having cold feet... he's afraid to actually go through with his plans, afraid of his master. (Remember, fear is the path to the dark side.) So he defends his master. Also, he obviously didn't have time to think the whole thing through before the decision, so his fear of his master makes it for him... it's a reflex. I like this solution because it shows Vader as weak and pitiful, a characterization I have always agreed with. Added bonus: it makes Palpatine stop questioning Vader's loyalty- he is caught off guard as he is thrown into the reactor core.

2)To Protect Luke subconsciously. (or if you're bold, consciously)
Vader knows Luke won't easily take on the Emperor. So this may be the fatherly love, the 'good in him' starting to come through, the 'conflict within him' escalating.

3)Vader fears the Emperor would kill Luke if Luke tried to kill him, and a dead Luke can't help Daddy overthrow the Crazy Old Guy.
I don't really like this one because I think Vader knows the Emperor wants to turn Luke too, not kill him. I put it in here because I did think of it, and it's plausible.
I like to think it is mostly the first solution that causes him to block Luke's saber, with a little bit of the second- I like the emerging 'conflict within him' between loyalty to/fear of his master and love for his son.
(The 'I can feel the conflict within you' gains much more meaning now, too.)

So a few minutes later, Luke uses the dark side to defeat Vader. The Emperor tells him to 'take his father's place, at my side,' and Vader realizes that he has been betrayed by his master. The situation, by the way, exactly parallels Anakin killing Dooku at the beginning of RotS, which I love. There are many other Anakin/Luke parallels, and they are causing the prequels to grow on me, but I digress..

So Luke, faced with the same choice his father had so many years ago, decides to spare Palpatine's apprentice, (as opposed to Dad who beheaded Dooku with his own saber) and stay on the good side. The Emperor doesn't care, he still has Vader. "Would've been nice to turn this kid, but whatever, I get to kill a rebel." Luke tosses away his lightsaber, and enters a world of pain.

Vader is at his lowest point now. He realizes his master does not give a damn about him, but he is near death... and Palpatine would be able to once again save him. So Vader pathetically rejoins someone who he knows does not care about him... 'it is the only way.'

But then Vader realizes that after all those years of serving the Emperor, he never got the power to stop people from dying. He realizes the evil that has dominated the galaxy since he joined the dark side. He remembers the values he once fought for. In the words of Wookieepedia's Anakin/Vader article, (I could not have put it better) he "never forgot the pain Count Dooku had once inflicted upon him with the lethal power of Force lightning, and could not bear to see his son in such agony. He had been unable to save his mother, he had let Mace Windu die under Palpatine's powers, he had murdered hundreds of Jedi, he had killed his Master and best friend, he had lost his beloved wife and true love, but he could save his son. Anakin Skywalker would not stand by and let his son fall. From this moment on, Darth Vader was no more, and Anakin Skywalker was reborn."

"You were right Luke, you were right. Tell your sister you were right."

I'm very happy with this and to me it makes the 6 films better as a whole as well as making Vader a lot more interesting.

I am going through a process of solving all my contradictions and after that, I'm going to watch the films again and hopefully see them in a whole new way.

 

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BigBoy29  762 posts
Registered: Dec '04
6883_Chance Cube
Date Posted: 12/16/08 11:17pm Subject: RE: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved
You are very astute to notice the "I must obey my master" line.

I like your assumptions, I liked how you surveyed many possibilties,

I look forward to reading some more of your posts, dude.

 

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Darth_Pevra  105 posts
Registered: May '08
20899_Vader and Palpatine
Date Posted: 12/17/08 4:11am Subject: RE: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved
My theory on the finale is that Luke simply needs to be pushed more to the edge before he takes down the emperor. Luke needn't only be turned, no his anger has to be built up so much that it wouldn't subside easily afterwards. Basically Luke has to remain a Sith after Palpy is dead and Vader had to ensure it somehow.

 

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Lexi  1784 posts
Title: FF Sweden CR
Registered: Oct '02
14559_Princess Leia
Date Posted: 12/17/08 4:33am Subject: RE: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved
This was very interesting and thought through. I've never thought about the "I must obey my master"-line before.

My theory on why Vader doesn't let Luke kill Palpatine is that Vader knows that Luke will fail. If Vader doesn't defend his master, both he and Luke will pay for it. I believe that Palpy is testing Vader's loyalty as much as he is provoking Luke into violence.

 

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jedimasterbac  6237 posts
Title: CT and Fan Design Manager
Registered: Jun '04
24180_Obi-Wan Art
Date Posted: 12/17/08 8:24am Subject: RE: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved
Welcome to TF.N! grin

I've thought about the "how is that possible" and "I must obey my master" lines like that before, but never in such detail. That's a really well thought out assessment, and I think I agree with it completely.

 

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BaronLandoCalrissian  796 posts
Registered: Jun '06
24218_Obi-Wan
Date Posted: 12/17/08 11:18pm Subject: RE: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved
metalbikini posted:

I like this solution because it shows Vader as weak and pitiful, a characterization I have always agreed with.



Me too. Like Luke and Han, Vader goes through a nice evolution in each of the 3 movies, from being a glorified goon, to a man with big ambitions, to seeing those ambitions fail (his son's rejection on Bespin genuinely surprised him). He became more of a beaten man, like a guy who's resigned himself to his lot in life and is just waiting for the gold watch and the pension. (This harks back to the days when the characters' status as mythical figures was less important than showing how mundanely, relatably, like US they are- a continuation of THX1138 and American Graffiti. Which is why I always felt Han Solo doesn't have to die or do anything grandiose, he just has to let his old friend have his car, and get a grown up job! For Han that IS progression!)

 

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xx_Anakin_xx  1762 posts
Registered: Jan '08
45272_Cade Skywalker
Date Posted: 12/18/08 2:51am Subject: RE: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved - Date Edited: 12/18/08 3:05am (2 edits total) Edited By: xx_Anakin_xx
Vader pitiful and weak? Not a chance. Lucas was attempting to show us conflict - I kinda thought that was apparent in that Luke said it like 100 times during that last bit they had together. Vader wanted to rule and there was nothing that happened that would make him wish to change his mind. He knew the rule of 2, and he knew that Luke was not coming to the Sith party. His only hope was to fight Luke and defeat (but not kill) him. And in that moment when (and if) Sidious demanded he do so, he'd just rise up and kill Sidious instead and rule with his son. Vader didn't want to be rule as a Jedi with Luke, he wanted them to rule as Sith. So he was all for Luke being turned - however, he was neither all for Luke replacing him nor being killed by Sidious. And as mentioned, Anakin knew darn well what Sidious' plan was - he'd been through it all before with Dooku - Anakin/Vader was many things, but stupid was not one of them.

When Vader told Luke that he had to obey his master and that there was no other way - he was speaking in terms of Luke's turning to the dark side - nothing else. He could have simply let Luke go and faced the consequences. He could have disobeyed Sidious (what else is new) and met up with Luke ahead of time. But he knew better. He could sense Luke's firm resolve. Things had to play out, unfortunately, in the way they did in order for Luke to be turned. Vader didn't make any mega realizations - he already knew the Emperor was a big fat liar; he already knew that Sidious would drop him the moment Luke - or any other stronger force user - came along. He already knew all of those things mentioned. He simply had not allowed his compassion (Anakin) to ever have a fighting chance. But his son being killed before him did the trick - that was not what he wanted at all. If anything, what he realized was that he also didn't want to Rule with Luke only to have the scene play out again between them. That is when Anakin killed Vader - because it was Vader who was the roadblock in the situation. Vader did not allow for compassion or acknowledgement of what Luke might mean to Anakin. Hence the part in the ROTS novel - 'a lone candle can hold the darkness back (Vader's conflict) - but love can ignite the stars' (Anakin's compassion).

It makes no sense that Lucas would feel a need to make Vader feel pitiful and weak, helpless and lost - that would be a prime reason for him to have gotten on with resolving his conflict much sooner. He wasn't recognizing any wrongs at that point. And it also makes entirely no sense in terms of Anakin's character from the beginning or Vader's throughout the series. He simply was not the type to throw in the towel and play poodle. It also renders the final moment too incredulous to believe. One minute the weak, helpless man who gave up and submitted to Sidious and the next this massive avenging returned Jedi guy? I don't buy it.

 

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BaronLandoCalrissian  796 posts
Registered: Jun '06
24218_Obi-Wan
Date Posted: 12/18/08 11:04am Subject: RE: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved
GEORGE LUCAS ON VADER Rolling Stone 2005

"Ultimately, he's just a pathetic guy who's had a very sad life."

"it's even more tragic, because he's not even an all-powerful bad guy, he's kind of a flunky."

 

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Darth_Pevra  105 posts
Registered: May '08
20899_Vader and Palpatine
Date Posted: 12/18/08 3:41pm Subject: RE: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved
xx_Anakin_xx posted:

It makes no sense that Lucas would feel a need to make Vader feel pitiful and weak, helpless and lost - that would be a prime reason for him to have gotten on with resolving his conflict much sooner. He wasn't recognizing any wrongs at that point. And it also makes entirely no sense in terms of Anakin's character from the beginning or Vader's throughout the series. He simply was not the type to throw in the towel and play poodle. It also renders the final moment too incredulous to believe. One minute the weak, helpless man who gave up and submitted to Sidious and the next this massive avenging returned Jedi guy? I don't buy it.



Indeed. One of his strongest character traits is his relentlesness and will to fight.

@Lucas statements
Hmm, but what was Lucas intention back then? I'm betting a different one.
Now he is retconning his old films to fit the PT, how disgusting. sick

 

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jedimasterbac  6237 posts
Title: CT and Fan Design Manager
Registered: Jun '04
24180_Obi-Wan Art
Date Posted: 12/18/08 5:02pm Subject: RE: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved
For all we know, unless there is a source with him saying something, that may very well have been his intention back then. However, it's still a good question to ask, considering we know that he now refers to it as "The Tragedy of Darth Vader".

 

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Darth_Pevra  105 posts
Registered: May '08
20899_Vader and Palpatine
Date Posted: 12/19/08 6:37am Subject: RE: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved - Date Edited: 12/19/08 6:41am (3 edits total) Edited By: Darth_Pevra
jedimasterbac posted:
For all we know, unless there is a source with him saying something, that may very well have been his intention back then. However, it's still a good question to ask, considering we know that he now refers to it as "The Tragedy of Darth Vader".

Maybe, but I doubt it.
He needed a badass archenemy for Luke to defeat, so he sort of needed a cunning powerful and domineering villain. Otherwise were would be the epic struggle?

But now that view doesn't fit as well with the PT and to soothe anyone who points the huge character differences between PT Anakin and OT Vader he sought an in-universe explanation. Also he wants to make Vader more human, easier to relate. And found it in painting Vader as a whiney slave not even couragous enough to commit suicide pathetic crybaby.

At least that's how I interpret the whole thing. A change of objectives that caused a portrayal-change of Vader's character (which doesn't make much sense but anyway...).

 

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BigBoy29  762 posts
Registered: Dec '04
6883_Chance Cube
Date Posted: 12/19/08 6:45pm Subject: RE: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved - Date Edited: 12/19/08 6:47pm (1 edits total) Edited By: BigBoy29
Good thread ... hope it don't devolve into the "Vader was crybaby/PT changed OT" stuff.

Edit: I wanna hear more Palps/Vader "what they're angling for" talk.

 

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xx_Anakin_xx  1762 posts
Registered: Jan '08
45272_Cade Skywalker
Date Posted: 12/19/08 9:30pm Subject: RE: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved
BaronLandoCalrissian posted:
GEORGE LUCAS ON VADER Rolling Stone 2005

"Ultimately, he's just a pathetic guy who's had a very sad life."

"it's even more tragic, because he's not even an all-powerful bad guy, he's kind of a flunky."


I don't see how that changes a thing I said. He was pathetic and he did have a sad life. He was also Sidious' flunky. But that has nothing to do with weakness. Just ask all those dude's he force choked - or better yet, ask Han.

 

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drg4  808 posts
Registered: Jul '05
24121_Padme
Date Posted: 12/19/08 9:40pm Subject: RE: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved
metalbikini: I'm from the "That redemption story was a sentimentalist crock of @#$%!" school--one boasting such malcontents as David Brin and John Byrne--but kudos for the best interpretation I've heard yet.

That's not to say I think any better of the story's execution...but good job.

 

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Go-Mer-Tonic  19592 posts
Registered: Aug '99
8199_Han Solo
Date Posted: 12/20/08 8:06am Subject: RE: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved - Date Edited: 12/20/08 8:08am (1 edits total) Edited By: Go-Mer-Tonic
The reason he doesn't just abandon the Emperor to side with Luke at that point is because he wants the ultimate power still.

Until he's ready to destroy Palpatine, he has to do his bidding.

All along Anakin's plan was to side with Palpatine long enough to learn his powers, then he was going to kill him and take his place as supreme ruler.

The big change in Vader's heart at the very end was he abandoned his greed for power to do the right thing.

 

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DBrennan3333  836 posts
Registered: Nov '04
23038_George Lucas
Date Posted: 12/20/08 2:36pm Subject: RE: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved
Admittedly, I glazed over a paragraph or two in the OP, but I don't think that there was any definitive cause for Vader not letting Luke simply kill the Emperor (or at least not an explanation that also explained the contradiction that this had with ESB).

My explanation is probably more of a retcon rationalization: I tell myself that the reason Vader couldn't allow Luke to kill the Emperor (despite the fact that he'd apparently been plotting for this regicide all throughout ESB) was because his allegiance to the Emperor was just one more thing that, when push came to shove, he simply "couldn't let go of".

Vader told himself that he wanted to oust Sidious and "rule the galaxy as father and son!" just as he told himself, way back when he was a boy on Tattooine, that he wanted to go off and become a Jedi. But when the time came to make the change real, he couldn't follow through on it. As a boy, he needed his mother to push him along and as a man he simply didn't have the fortitude. Anakin/Vader can't "embrace the new".

So, when Vader finally does kill the Emperor, he's at last overcoming his single greatest flaw: greedy attachment to the past.

 

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