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Author	Topic: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved
metalbikini Registered: Dec '08	Date Posted: 12/22/08 9:58pm Subject: RE: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved - Date Edited: 12/22/08 10:01pm (3 edits total) Edited By: metalbikini
	Hey, thanks to all who replied... I think that clearly there are many ways to look at all of this. It is George Lucas' gift and curse to his fans I suppose. One part I didn't really think of until reading this was that Anakin did want to learn Palpatine's power and immediately kill him all along. It's a very interesting debate. DBrennan3333 posted: So, when Vader finally does kill the Emperor, he's at last overcoming his single greatest flaw: greedy attachment to the past. "One more thing he couldn't let go of..." basically another testament to his weakness. that is something I never really thought of. A whole other element. I may slightly edit my original post to include some of the things discussed above.
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 12/22/08 10:09pm Subject: RE: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved
	"I am more powerful than the Chancellor. I can overthrow him." "With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy." -----signature----- "You're both from strange little backwater planets. You both have odd powers. You're male and she's female. What more do you need? Believe me, buddy, if I were you, I'd go right up there and ask her if she wants to ride on my rancor." - Han Solo
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BigBoy29 Registered: Dec '04	Date Posted: 12/22/08 11:28pm Subject: RE: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved
	Arawn_Fenn posted: "I am more powerful than the Chancellor. I can overthrow him." "With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy." "I must obey my master ..." <puts head down in dejected manner> Hence, THE CONTRADICTION as eloquently summed up by Metalbikini. -----signature----- Lando: "She saved me at the Battle of Tannabe". Han: "Hey remember, I won her fair and square." Lando: "She was mine before she was yours, she was mine before she was yours ..."
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Alpha-Red Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 3/25 9:08pm Subject: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved
	Vader wants to overthrow the Emperor, but after failing to turn Luke in ESB he realizes he has lost his one chance. However, the other piece of the puzzle comes from Dark Lord. Anakin wanted to rule the galaxy with Padme, rule-of-two be damned. Padme died and Anakin nearly burned to death on Mustafar....so he resigns himself to serving Palpatine. This is clearly not something he wanted. At the end of Dark Lord Anakin has nothing left for himself other than to find an apprentice and overthrow Palpatine. However once he finds out about Luke, what better way is there for him to fulfill this and rectify the past than to rule the galaxy with his son? This is why Vader is so adamant about turning Luke to the dark side. He believed it was his own destiny to turn to the dark side and rule the galaxy, and he also believes this is the same for Luke. Now, turning one more page....Vader has failed to turn Luke in ESB. Now he's on Plan C. Vader plans to fight Luke and enrage him to the point where he would be killed by his own son. Luke would turn to the dark side and become Palpatine's apprentice. Luke would not have been limited by injuries like Vader had. Luke would have the chance to rule the galaxy that Anakin did not. At the end of it all however, Anakin realizes he's still a Jedi at heart. He saves Luke, turns back to the light side, and decides that Luke had been right all along.
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Etgreat Registered: Mar '09	Date Posted: 3/28 1:32am Subject: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved
	Great, great post!!! This is the kind of insight that demonstrates why this story will grow even more into timeless epic classics over-time, they have such depth of themes and intrigue. I agree with your rationale for Vader blocking Luke's lightsaber strike on Sidious. The fear of an abrupt change to his current 'comfort' of master/apprentice and carrying out his plot to overthrow the Emperor combined with the unconscious desire to protect what he perceives as Luke's underestimation of the powers of the Emperor are certainly the motivating factors at the beginning of this duel. I have thought alot about the significance of this event, but have never given it a thorough look of the course of this duel and the 'conflict' within Vader from start to finish. This was a wonderful post and it relates to my post under the 'Star Wars Saga' section on the "Chose One Prophecy re-interpreted" concerning my interpretation of the meaning of the 'balance' brought to the force by Vader in ROTJ. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on that matter. Thanks again for your wonderful contribution!
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Eternity85 Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 3/28 4:39am Subject: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved
	Great topic, and many insightful posts! So, its like Vader has finally given up on his plan to overthrow his master when he meet up with Luke on Endor before they leave to meet the Emperor.? Alpha-Red Now, turning one more page....Vader has failed to turn Luke in ESB. Now he's on Plan C. Vader plans to fight Luke and enrage him to the point where he would be killed by his own son. Luke would turn to the dark side and become Palpatine's apprentice. Luke would not have been limited by injuries like Vader had. Luke would have the chance to rule the galaxy that Anakin did not. This goes deep, and is very interesting. The conflict, it is Vader vs Anakin, that has always been his battle, i believe he is fighting himself, more so than he fights his son in the final duel. Its almost like you can see that Vader gives up at the end, and knows that he has failed yet again. Then Luke did something that Vader nor the Emperor had prepared for. Im still wondering what went through Vaders mind the last moments, when Luke was zapped by his Sith Master. He waited a long time before he made a move, why? What does Vader have left to lose anyway anymore, nothing but his son, who he cant seem to decide if he should save or not. If he doesnt, then he is back in the eternal darkness again, in the shadow of his master, a pointless existence, and now with the knowledge that he couldnt save his son either. -----signature----- " Your eyes can deceive you, do not trust them." - Obi Wan Kenobi
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oo-tee-dee Registered: Mar '09	Date Posted: 4/3 2:55pm Subject: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved - Date Edited: 4/3 3:03pm (2 edits total) Edited By: oo-tee-dee
	Hey great points all around. I agree with mostly everything. Although, I think that Darth Vader was being pretty bi-polar during that scene. Most of us think that he gradually let go of the bad and embraced the good. But I think that he might have cycled between intense good and bad, rather than gradually going from one to the other. In other words, he would think of Luke's well-being for a while, and then all of a sudden rush back to intense loyalty to the Emperor. Man I wish I still had the time and energy to type out these types of long, drawn out Star Wars essays. BTW, lol @ your Bio, OP!
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jc1138 Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 7/30 10:16pm Subject: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved
	[quote=oo-tee-dee] Most of us think that he gradually let go of the bad and embraced the good. But I think that he might have cycled between intense good and bad, rather than gradually going from one to the other. In other words, he would think of Luke's well-being for a while, and then all of a sudden rush back to intense loyalty to the Emperor. quote] I think there is something to this. The intense good is when he doesn't slaughter luke, the intense evil when he rides him about his sister.
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Darth_Nub Registered: Apr '09	Date Posted: 7/31 12:34am Subject: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved
	All very, very interesting points, although to be perfectly honest, I've never seen too many contradictions, I think they only become apparent if you look for them. Nevertheless, it all definitely highlights some of the internal workings of Anakin/Vader, which are necessarily contradictory by the nature of the character. One thing that hasn't been brought up is the self-loathing Vader clearly feels, & how that drives some of his behaviour. I've always felt (long before the PT came out) that part of the reason Vader wants to turn Luke to the Dark Side is out of some sort of desperate need to validate his own turn to evil. He wants order, he wants peace, he thinks what he's doing is right - if another Jedi can turn to the Dark Side, it means that he wasn't so out of the ordinary, that it could happen to anyone. The Dark Side was always too powerful, there was nothing he could do. It was his destiny. It goes back to that perverse desire of bad people to drag others down to their own level. Not for some sick pleasure, it sometimes seems like it's the only way of feeling better about themselves. -----signature----- "First you must fill your head with wisdom. Then you can hit ice with it."
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TaradosGon Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 9/8 11:11am Subject: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved
	At Starwars.com, back when the "Ask the Jedi Council" feature was up and running, there was a question along the lines of "Who are the Sith, and why do they want Revenge?" in relation to Episode III and the answer summed up had to do with the Sith having had ruled the Galaxy before being beaten by the Jedi and that now they are seeking to regain control of the Galaxy, defeat the Jedi, and have no more need for the Rule of Two. I think that was kind of the idea with Luke. Both Palpatine and Vader openly discussed turning Luke and acted as though they were going to cooperate in both ESB and ROTJ. Otherwise in ESB when Palpatine orders Vader to kill Luke, Vader should have just said "OK, will do" and then secretly turned Luke. Instead they openly establish that they are going to cooperate. My understanding is that according to the EU, Dooku was similarly promised that if he assisted with helping Palpatine turn Anakin, that no harm would come to Dooku, but that Palpatine tricked Dooku. The films to me - in contrast to the EU - suggest that the Rule of Two is not some official code the Sith follow, but just a general trend. In theory the Sith are in control and there's no need for adhering to the Rule of Two since there is no need for secrecy, but in practice the overthrown master or the replaced apprentice are simply a liability who might form a coalition to kill the master. If that's the case, then Vader might not have felt rushed to turn on Palpatine. First they'd convert Luke, then Palpatine would train Luke, and then Vader would use Luke to kill Palpatine down the road. Both sought to replace the other, but they never openly revealed their plans to one another and instead implied that both would cooperate and would have a role in turning Luke. E.G. Vader: If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally. (Why would Vader propose this. If the Rule of Two was Sith law, then he's openly declaring his intention to betray Palpatine) Palpatine: Yes, he would be a great asset. Can it be done? (If Vader just openly threatened Palpatine, why would Palpatine trust Vader with turning Luke?) Palpatine (In ROTJ): He will come to you, and you will bring him before me. Even though they both had their secret plans, I think they both thought that they had fooled the other. I don't think Vader expected to be betrayed, and Palpatine didn't expect Vader to turn on him. Both thought that they would catch the other off guard. Vader had no reason to let Luke kill Palpatine as of ROTJ. Palpatine was more powerful than Vader and had greater knowledge, and Luke had greater potential than Vader. Why not protect Palpatine, turn Luke, have Luke learn as much as he can from Palpatine, THEN kill Palpatine? If Vader didn't expect to be betrayed, this might have been his thought process. As for the contradiction between the plot to overthrow Palpatine in ESB and the line "I MUST obey my master." In the prior case Vader was trying to tempt Luke into joining him by blaming Palpatine for the continuing instability and suggesting to Luke that if they work together they can end the war and create order. In the latter case, Vader is saying to Luke - who is trying to redeem him - why he cannot go back to the light side. The Dark Side he felt was stronger, and those that opposed it were doomed to die. Vader felt that he MUST obey Palpatine over Luke, because if he tried to leave with Luke at that point they'd both be killed. But if Luke could be turned, learn the Dark Side himself then they would have the strength to challenge Palpatine.
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xx_Anakin_xx Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 9/8 11:54pm Subject: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved
	That is how I saw it too. Vader also told Luke that Sidious 'was his master now' and would show him the true nature of the Force. But Vader knew that at that point Luke wasn't buying it at all, so his words make no sense in the context of handing Luke over to Sidious as a true apprentice, unless Vader planned to die. There wasn't going to be a Rule of 3. I took it to mean Vader wasn't going to go to the light side no matter what, so Luke's choice was to jump sides or die and Vader had already told him the plan, together they would destroy Sidious and rule. All the rest was traumatizing Luke with his only other real choice; kill off Vader and rule with Sidious - which Vader knew Luke did not want above all things. There is a part of me though, that believes that Lucas' primary purpose was to have the audience believe that Vader was pledged to Sidious and would never move against him to heighten the moment at the end where he returns to a Jedi, tosses Sidious, and saves Luke. I got the feeling that the Lucas didn't consider the words so much in terms of the actual storyline and merely used those that would best forward this plot twist. -----signature----- I say we put together a 'kill squad' and assassinate Darth Krayt. Who's with me?
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TaradosGon Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 9/9 1:30pm Subject: Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved - Date Edited: 9/9 1:41pm (2 edits total) Edited By: TaradosGon
	Prior to the release of the prequels, more specifically ROTS, I did think that Vader had pretty much accepted that he was going to die as of ROTJ. On Bespin, far away from the Emperor's ears, he tries to turn Luke and says that he, himself, will complete Luke's training. By ROTJ he turns Luke over to the Emperor, tells Luke the Emperor will be his master, and protects Palpatine when Luke tries to kill him. It was Luke's destiny to destroy the Emperor according to Vader in ESB, and since Luke rejected Vader's proposal in ROTJ preferring to jump away from Vader which for all Luke had known could have been to his death, I thought Vader had lost hope. He failed to turn Luke, so one of two things would have happened, Palpatine would use his power and influence to turn Luke and succeed where Vader had failed, or Luke would die. Vader himself had said on at least three occasions that if Luke did not turn he would die, once to Palpatine in ESB, once to Luke in ESB ("Don't make me destroy you") and again to Luke in ROTJ ("If that is your destiny"). Vader had no intention of redeeming himself, and I didn't think he had faith in Luke's abilities at that point to think that Luke could destroy the Emperor. I thought that Vader had pretty much come to terms with the idea that his plot had failed, and now either he would be killed and replaced by his son, or he would be forced to kill his son. He was choosing between his son's life or his own. I thought his aspirations to replace Palpatine with Luke were pretty much shot down and he knew it. And this theory has resurfaced a bit in my mind given how Palpatine talks in the Dark Side ending of TFU, making his intentions blatant. If Vader received a similar speech, then he probably followed Palpatine out of fear for himself, and with Luke still resisting on Endor, before being taken to the Emperor, Vader probably thought there was little chance of coming out alive. In ROTJ we hear Palpatine refer to Vader as property ("You, like your father are now... MINE!") and even after telling Luke to finish Vader off, Vader still gets up and returns to Palpatine's side. Vader fears powerless without Luke and must obey Palpatine out of fear. I still kind of think there might be validity to the Vader accepted he was going to die theory, due to the contrast between his attitude in ESB and ROTJ. Also it's possible that Vader stepped in to block Luke's saber, since it's possible that had he not, then Palpatine might have sensed it ahead of time and been able to defend himself. Now, given how we see Anakin turned in ROTS, my view has changed a bit since I see a parallel between Anakin stepping in to save Sidious from Mace, and how Vader stepped in to save Sidious from Luke. Lucas has also established that Vader had become a disappointment to Sidious since Vader's potential was severely cut down due to his injuries. In ROTS Anakin steps in to keep Sidious alive because he wants Sidious' knowledge. And as Lucas says on the commentary, Anakin's initial plan is to have Sidious arrested so that he can later interrogate him and learn his secrets. Since Vader's potential was limited while Luke's was not, and because Luke's destiny, according to Vader, was to destroy the Emperor, it's possible that Vader stepped in to save Palpatine because he didn't want Palpatine dead yet. He may have stepped in to protect Palpatine because his plan may have been to turn Luke, then overpower (but not kill) Palpatine, and coerce him into sharing his knowledge before killing him. Also if it is the case that there was no more reason to restrict the number of Sith to two (as apparently Dooku was told and is implied in how Vader and Palpatine cooperate), then Vader might have stepped in to protect Palpatine, because why not? Luke wasn't ready to turn yet and had previously resisted Vader, maybe Palpatine would have more success twisting Luke's mind, and then Vader could step in.
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