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Author	Topic: Do you remember your real mother? - A new theory
obi-arin-kenobi Registered: Jun '05	Date Posted: 3/25 12:46am Subject: Do you remember your real mother? - A new theory
	Eh, the clone plot is all there. The jedi stuff is tied up pretty well. It makes sense that they couldn't find the dark side. It's in multiple places throughout the trilogy. One of the strong points of the pt, imo.
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Nordom Registered: Jun '04	Date Posted: 3/25 8:00am Subject: Do you remember your real mother? - A new theory
	obi-arin-kenobi posted: Eh, the clone plot is all there. The jedi stuff is tied up pretty well. It makes sense that they couldn't find the dark side. It's in multiple places throughout the trilogy. One of the strong points of the pt, imo There are things missing in the clone army plot, among them WHO actually ordered the army. We get a name, a jedi named Sifo-Dyas. But we are also told that he is dead and seemed to have been killed BEFORE the order was placed and so he could not have done it. Jango also does not know the name Sifo-Dyas. At films end the most likely suspect is Dooku or Palpatine but we do not know for sure. Then in RotS the matter is never talked abvout so the matter is unresolved. This plot was actually changed quite late. In the shooting script there was no Sifo-Dyas, it was Sido-Dyas, in other words Sidious. The jedi were well aware that there was no such jedi and they talk a great deal more about who this could be and the motive behind it all. This was changed during pick ups and they reshoot Ewan saying Sifo-Dyas instead of Sido-Dyas. A bigger problem to me is that the jedi seem not to notice or care about the stagering amount co-incidents and mysteries around the clone army and just use them, no questions asked. Jango, the clone army template is working for Dooku, who the clone army is designed to fight. The jedi seem not to notice or care. An army was ordered without the knowledge or consent of either senate or jedicouncil. The person said to have ordered the army is dead and was apparently killed before the order was placed. The army just happens to fall into the jedi's hands just as the republic is about to get attacked. And so on. The jedi have leads to investigate. They could question the Kamino people and try and find out who actually ordered the army and who paid for it. They could try and find out who tampered with their files. They have enough evidence to suspect that the whole war is fake and that they are being manipulated. But the jedi hardly ever comment or speculate about what all this means. Regards Nordom -----signature----- "I think, therefore I am.. I think" "Morte, how do you stay afloat?" "Flatulence, you stupid polygon"
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 3/25 2:08pm Subject: Do you remember your real mother? - A new theory - Date Edited: 3/25 2:13pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
	Nordom posted: Case in point, Obi-Wan when faced with the planet Kamino not being in the jedi arrchives when he is sure it is there seems totally unable to consider the possibility that the file was deleted. This conversation shows that they know the file was erased: OBI-WAN: But Master Yoda, who could have erased information from the archives? That's impossible, isn't it? YODA:(frowning) Dangerous and disturbing this puzzle is. Only a Jedi could have erased those files. Nordom posted: Part of the problem I belive is that the clone army plot was changed quite late, as far as I can tell in post-production. Sido-Dyas became Sifo-Dyas. In the third draft, dated sept 2001, after shooting was complete, Sido-Dyas is still in the script. It's not a problem given that it was changed prior to release. Nordom posted: Also anyone with close to normal intelligence would do far more than the jedi apparently do, question far more They did question, but it wasn't needed to move the plot of the film. You have no proof that they did not engage in sufficient questioning, and as I have said it is implied by dialogue in the film. Nordom posted: But we are also told that he is dead and seemed to have been killed BEFORE the order was placed and so he could not have done it. But he did do it in EU which does not contradict the film, so actually we know that he could have done it. Character impressions are not automatically correct. -----signature----- "You're both from strange little backwater planets. You both have odd powers. You're male and she's female. What more do you need? Believe me, buddy, if I were you, I'd go right up there and ask her if she wants to ride on my rancor." - Han Solo
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Palp_Faction Registered: Feb '02	Date Posted: 3/25 3:02pm Subject: Do you remember your real mother? - A new theory
	All the Jedi know is that a dude called Tyranus hired Jango Fett as a template for their army. Jango Fett was also hired by Dooku to kill Padme. The fact that a gun for hire is working for both sides of a war is called an opportunist - nothing suspicious about that at all. Unfortunately, had Mace not lopped Jango's head off and taken him into custody instead, they would have discovered that Tyranus and Dooku were one and the same and only then they would have had a lot more to go on. I think they were highly suspicious of how events were unfolding, but with a huge droid army about to attack the republic you tend to ask questions later about the clones' legitimacy. I'm sure in between Ep2 and 3 questions were asked, not just by the Jedi, but by the entire galaxy, but it wasn't essential to the plot. By Ep 3 the Jedi probably came to regard the Clones as a blessing as, let's face it, they did a damn good job! -----signature----- ROTS, ESB, ANH, AOTC, TPM, ROTJ
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Ord-Mantell70 Registered: Mar '09	Date Posted: 3/25 3:04pm Subject: Do you remember your real mother? - A new theory - Date Edited: 3/25 3:05pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Ord-Mantell70
	Does anybody know if Lucas ever made any statement about this specific plot point ("do you remember your real mother"), in books or interviews ? Can't seem to remember one. -----signature----- "They were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Naturally they became heroes."- Leïa Organa, Journal of the Whills. "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them"
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Nordom Registered: Jun '04	Date Posted: 3/26 12:52am Subject: Do you remember your real mother? - A new theory
	Arawn_Fenn posted: This conversation shows that they know the file was erased: OBI-WAN: But Master Yoda, who could have erased information from the archives? That's impossible, isn't it? YODA:(frowning) Dangerous and disturbing this puzzle is. Only a Jedi could have erased those files. I was refering to the earlier part of that scene, when Obi-Wan comes to Yoda, who teaches class. He is convinced that Kamino exists but it is not on the file and he can not understand how this could be. Then a little kid says the file was deleted and Obi-Wan acts like "the file deleted, I would never have thought of that." It makes Obi-Wan look like a retard. That he never once considered that someone had delted the file as a possibility before a little kid told him. Arawn_Fenn posted: It's not a problem given that it was changed prior to release. I think it is a problem because other scenes were cut and the plot thread is not given much room. Then plot thread was left hanging at films end. Then RotS simply ignores it so the entire issue is unresolved. Arawn_Fenn posted: They did question, but it wasn't needed to move the plot of the film. You have no proof that they did not engage in sufficient questioning, and as I have said it is implied by dialogue in the film. No the dialogue does not imply much in the way of questioning or investigating because they never talk about making further investigations, we never see them doing any investigations and they never talk about any results of any investgations. Also I do think that some questions and investigations were needed for the film. One to show who actually did order the army, two to show that the jedi are of at least normal intelligence. Arawn_Fenn posted: But he did do it in EU which does not contradict the film, so actually we know that he could have done it. Character impressions are not automatically correct. Again you bring in the EU to explain away the movies flaws. A movie should not have to realy on some book to explain the plot or why characters do what they do. Also the EU does contradict the film in that Obi-Wan statement is now made incorrect. Also there is ZERO evidence in the movie that Obi-Wan is wrong and the jedi accept what he says so we the audience have NO reason to doubt him. Palp_Faction posted: All the Jedi know is that a dude called Tyranus hired Jango Fett as a template for their army. Jango Fett was also hired by Dooku to kill Padme. The fact that a gun for hire is working for both sides of a war is called an opportunist - nothing suspicious about that at all. Nothing suspicious? The same guy is deeply involved with both sides in a comming war. An army has been ordered in secret, without the senate or jedicouncil knowing anything about it. The army just happens to be ready just as the republic is about to be attacked. The planet where this army is made has been deleted from the jedi files, something only a jedi could do. The person that is said to have ordered the army is dead and seemed to have been killed before the army was ordered. Jango, the clone army template has no idea who this dead jedi is and was hired by someone else, throwing furhter doubt on this dead jedis involvement. Jango is also trying to kill one of the most vocal opponents of the republic army, that he involved in making. Jango also happens to work for the very person that his clone army will fight, namely Dooku. Dooku is also a former jedi, who left the jedi order around the time the army was ordered. Nothing suspicious? This is HUGELY suspicious. The odds for Jango just getting hired for these two jobs by mere chance are astronomical. Yes it is a possibility but the jedi should have considered the other possibility as well. They did not as so they look stupid. Regards Nordom -----signature----- "I think, therefore I am.. I think" "Morte, how do you stay afloat?" "Flatulence, you stupid polygon"
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voodoopuuduu Title: Classic Trilogy Trivia Host Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 3/26 9:00am Subject: Do you remember your real mother? - A new theory
	Then a little kid says the file was deleted and Obi-Wan acts like "the file deleted, I would never have thought of that." It makes Obi-Wan look like a retard. That he never once considered that someone had delted the file as a possibility before a little kid told him. Yeah, it does in a way. Interesting that Yoda would trust him on ANY decisions after that, heh. So I guess we have to question Yoda's judgement too. YODA: Most interesting. Gravity's silhouette remains, but the star and all its planets have disappeared. How can this be? Now, younglings, in your mind, what is the first thing you see? An answer? A thought? Anyone? There is a brief pause. Then a CHILD puts his hand up. YODA nods. JEDI CHILD JACK: Master? Because someone erased it from the archive memory. -----signature----- Winner CT Trivia Challenge 44, 54 Winner PT Trivia Challenge 10 , 13, 14, 17 Joint-Winner CT Challenge 49 and 50, PT Challange 18
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Palp_Faction Registered: Feb '02	Date Posted: 3/26 12:21pm Subject: Do you remember your real mother? - A new theory
	Nothing suspicious? This is HUGELY suspicious. The odds for Jango just getting hired for these two jobs by mere chance are astronomical. Yes it is a possibility but the jedi should have considered the other possibility as well. They did not as so they look stupid. Regards Nordom[/quote] I don't think the odds are astronomical at all. The conclusion that the Jedi would have come to is that Jango was playing both sides - not working for someone else who is playing both sides. Besides, the order to assassinate Padme had nothing to do with the clones or her opposition to the army. It was revenge by Nute Gunray for the Naboo debacle - so the events aren't linked anyway, apart from the fact that Jango was in Dooku's address book and he hired him on Gunray's behalf. They may have looked for a common link between Jango and Dooku and the only one they would have come up with is Kamino i.e. it was deleted from the Jedi archives and Dooku was once a Jedi - rather a tenuous link, considering that the clone army was designed to go up against the CIS. Someone may even have suggested that Dooku was playing both sides in the war - but they would have been at a loss to find a motivation. Unfortunately without Jango or Sifo available for interview, the Jedi really are in the dark. -----signature----- ROTS, ESB, ANH, AOTC, TPM, ROTJ
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Nordom Registered: Jun '04	Date Posted: 3/26 12:58pm Subject: Do you remember your real mother? - A new theory
	Palp_Faction posted: I don't think the odds are astronomical at all. You are dealing with an entire GALAXY here. Even here on earth the odds of the same assasing getting hired for two jobs just by mere chance is rather low. In a galaxy with millions of worlds the odds are indeed astronomical. Palp_Faction posted: The conclusion that the Jedi would have come to is that Jango was playing both sides - not working for someone else who is playing both sides. Besides, the order to assassinate Padme had nothing to do with the clones or her opposition to the army. It was revenge by Nute Gunray for the Naboo debacle - so the events aren't linked anyway, apart from the fact that Jango was in Dooku's address book and he hired him on Gunray's behalf. Several things. 1) The Naboo incident was 10 years ago and it has taken Nute this long to try and kill Padme? What's wrong, he can't find an assassin by himself? 2) Just how would Jango be in Dooku's address book? Jedi do not normally hang around with assassins. Unless of course Dooku had hired Jango before, like being the clone army template. Alarm bells are ringing here. 3) The timing of the attempt on Padme is more than a little strange. She is getting back to Coruscant to vote against the republic army but before she has a chance, someone tries to kill her. You need not be a Holmes to see the connection. Indeed in the deleted scenes, Padme speaks to the senate and she points the finger at those that want the bill to pass. This made much more sense than her accusing Dooku, who from what she knows, would have no reason to kill her. Palp_Faction posted: They may have looked for a common link between Jango and Dooku and the only one they would have come up with is Kamino i.e. it was deleted from the Jedi archives and Dooku was once a Jedi - rather a tenuous link, considering that the clone army was designed to go up against the CIS. Someone may even have suggested that Dooku was playing both sides in the war - but they would have been at a loss to find a motivation. The very fact that the template for the clone army is working for the very person whom the army would be used against is VERY suspicious. It would like a top American military man, working on some secret project, was revealed as a Russian agent. This would lead to all sorts of questions. The jedi know that Jango was not hired by Sifo-Dyas, they even have evidence that speaks against Sifo-Dyas even ordering the army in the first place. So if Sifo-Dyas did not order it then who did? Dooku would be a likely suspect, he was a jedi so he would know Sifo-Dyas name and could present himself as a jedi. He also has a connection with Jango. He also left the order around the time the army was ordered. The EU also suggest that Dooku is very rich so he might have the money needed to pay for this army. But why would Dooku order a clone army and then build up a droid army? This very question is what should make the jedi SUSPECT that the war might be fake. The jedi have more than enough evidence to suspect foul play and smell a rat. But they do not. They never even comment on the Jango-Dooku connection, as if it was unimportant. This makes the jedi look like clueless dimwits and weakens the story in my view. Regards Nordom -----signature----- "I think, therefore I am.. I think" "Morte, how do you stay afloat?" "Flatulence, you stupid polygon"
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 3/26 1:53pm Subject: Do you remember your real mother? - A new theory - Date Edited: 3/26 2:00pm (4 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
	Nordom posted: No the dialogue does not imply much in the way of questioning or investigating The Jedi speak of questioning and investigating. It's that simple. Nordom posted: I think it is a problem So there's no point in filmmakers making changes during production, because you'll criticize the first draft of the script instead of the finished film? Nordom posted: Also the EU does contradict the film in that Obi-Wan statement is now made incorrect. That's not what we call "contradicting the film". James_Luceno posted: George was involved to the extent that he provided answers to the many questions I had about Master Sifo-Dyas, General Grievous, Dooku’s allegiance to Sidious, the Prophecy of the Chosen One, the Battle of Coruscant, and more. The Sifo-Dyas background came straight from Lucas, as did Sidious’s words to Dooku before the duel aboard Grievous’s starship. -----signature----- "You're both from strange little backwater planets. You both have odd powers. You're male and she's female. What more do you need? Believe me, buddy, if I were you, I'd go right up there and ask her if she wants to ride on my rancor." - Han Solo
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voodoopuuduu Title: Classic Trilogy Trivia Host Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 3/26 9:16pm Subject: Do you remember your real mother? - A new theory - Date Edited: 3/26 9:18pm (1 edits total) Edited By: voodoopuuduu
	Several things. 1) The Naboo incident was 10 years ago and it has taken Nute this long to try and kill Padme? What's wrong, he can't find an assassin by himself? Ive always questioned that too. As Viceroy of the Trade Federation, and as the Trade Federation's Senator in the Galactic Senate before that, surely he knew plenty of assassins. And he probably knew which ones work for the least money, heh. -----signature----- Winner CT Trivia Challenge 44, 54 Winner PT Trivia Challenge 10 , 13, 14, 17 Joint-Winner CT Challenge 49 and 50, PT Challange 18
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Nordom Registered: Jun '04	Date Posted: 3/27 8:17am Subject: Do you remember your real mother? - A new theory
	Arawn_Fenn posted: So there's no point in filmmakers making changes during production, because you'll criticize the first draft of the script instead of the finished film? If you had read what I actually wrote instead of making things up you'll find I wrote: Nordom posted: I think it is a problem because other scenes were cut and the plot thread is not given much room. Then plot thread was left hanging at films end. Then RotS simply ignores it so the entire issue is unresolved. So HERE it is a problem because other scenes were cut and this plot thread was not given enough room. Then it was left unresolved at films end but the next film ignored it. Filmmakers can certainly make changes as much as they want but the issue is how well these changes are made. Here I do think that certain things were glossed over and the new plot thread was not as well thought out as the older one. There were some issues with the old one as well, ex Jango says he was hired by a Darth Tyrannus and the jedi know that he is a Sith. So the jedi know that the Sith are involved in the clone army. As to the rest, we've been over this before and this is off-topic so I suggest we'll leave it. There is a thread in the PT forum that talks about this so it might be better suited there. Regards Nordom -----signature----- "I think, therefore I am.. I think" "Morte, how do you stay afloat?" "Flatulence, you stupid polygon"
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 3/27 9:19am Subject: Do you remember your real mother? - A new theory
	Nordom posted: If you had read what I actually wrote instead of making things up Sido-Dyas has no relevance because it was changed before release. So you're bringing up a plot point that was not a part of the finished film as though it constitutes a problem. At that point one of us is critiquing the film while the other is critiquing the first draft of the script. Lucas' involvement with LOE shows that Sifo-Dyas did contact the Kaminoans. -----signature----- "You're both from strange little backwater planets. You both have odd powers. You're male and she's female. What more do you need? Believe me, buddy, if I were you, I'd go right up there and ask her if she wants to ride on my rancor." - Han Solo
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woj101 Registered: Feb '00	Date Posted: 3/27 4:15pm Subject: Do you remember your real mother? - A new theory
	Pardon me, but is this not a CT thread, and is there not at least one other thread actively discussing the Sifo-Dyas plot on one of the other boards (not sure if it's saga or PT, but it's there cos I've just posted in it). It's here: Sorry to interrupt, but I was enjoying the original subject of the thread... -----signature----- You've failed Your Highness. I am a cider-drinker, like my father before me.
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voodoopuuduu Title: Classic Trilogy Trivia Host Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 3/27 11:46pm Subject: Do you remember your real mother? - A new theory
	I am a cider-drinker, like my father before me. Hmm, since the thread is off topic anyway, got a link to a good cider recipe, heh ? -----signature----- Winner CT Trivia Challenge 44, 54 Winner PT Trivia Challenge 10 , 13, 14, 17 Joint-Winner CT Challenge 49 and 50, PT Challange 18
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