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Author	Topic: The "easy" defeat of Darth Vader is RotJ is more than easy to explain- Theories
Edgeorge Registered: Aug '08	Date Posted: 3/21 9:22am Subject: The "easy" defeat of Darth Vader is RotJ is more than easy to explain- Theories
	After watching RotJ for the trillionth time, some fans (including me) thought that Vader was almost unwilling to defeat Luke in their final duel onboard the Second Death Star. But, as Vader leting Luke win is too...dumb to buy, I present a few theories: Theory 1; The duel was too long. Somebody had to do the mistake! I mean, five minutes of pure saberin' are too much. And if I say, "what? it's not 5 minutes, it's not even two!", then you can always say "did you count the off-screen action"? Well, after they clash their sabers on Palp's face, there's a scene on Endor and then they are already 5 meters away from him, and well battle-heated. Theory 2: Luke used a powerful Force ability known as "Dark Rage", where the user attacks with full force, but also spends all his Force energy (gets exhausted). If you play Jedi Academy (great game), you definitely know the ability I am talking about. This is why Luke was so sweaty while locking Vader with his green blade. This also shows Vader's great power (he lasted for around a minute even after a 5 minutes long fight with the user (Luke), while in the game, a "Reborn" Dark Jedi lasts for...5 seconds. Theory 3: Luke is younger, Vader is half machine blah blah blah... All theories work well, I think....although the best one is Theory 1. I added Theory 2 on Wookieepedia and got blocked, cause I didn't know the speculating on duels is not allowed. That's not gonna happen here! -----signature----- Will Star Wars: The Old Rebublic be worth the waiting? Or, will it relinquish SW? If not, I really quit on Star Wars.
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timmoishere Registered: Jun '07	Date Posted: 3/21 12:11pm Subject: The "easy" defeat of Darth Vader is RotJ is more than easy to explain- Theories
	Luke's anger at Vader's threat to Leia was enough for him to overpower Vader. -----signature----- Will do moose stuff for money. Everything tastes better wrapped in bacon, especially bacon 11/20/2008: The day I married the most wonderful woman in the world.
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woj101 Registered: Feb '00	Date Posted: 3/21 2:56pm Subject: The "easy" defeat of Darth Vader is RotJ is more than easy to explain- Theories
	I'm more in fasvour of the original theory, rather than any of the 3 suggested, but rather than Vader 'letting' Luke win, I think it's more that Vader wasn't ready to kill Luke. You can see from the end of TESB and the scenes in ROTJ that Vader is conflicted ("It is too late for me, my son" - regret; "I must obey my Master" - compulsion rather than desire), and Luke knows it: "You couldn't bring yourself to kill me before, and I don't believe you'll destroy me now", and I don't think there's a time during that scene where it seems Vader is actually trying to kill Luke, the whole time he's leaving the door open for Luke - perhaps because he wants Luke to kill the Emperor because he can't do it himself, or perhaps not, perhaaps it's simply 'the will of the Force', but if Vader went all out to kill Luke, he would have succeeded - fact is, he didn't wanna. I agree the duel went on whilst the scene cuts to Endor, and that Luke would have more stamina than Vader, but that's not why he 'defeated' Vader in my mind. Luke has all but given up hope when he's cowering in the shadows, and the mention of Leia is understandably a sensitive area for Luke, this results in his torrential attack on Vader, and Vader doesn't have the heart or the will to end it. I'm not saying Vader just gives in, and yes, perhaps he is a bit knackered by then when Luke throws his wobbly, but if he'd wanted to defeat Luke he'd have it done it before then. -----signature----- You've failed Your Highness. I am a cider-drinker, like my father before me.
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rsterling78 Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 3/21 3:15pm Subject: The "easy" defeat of Darth Vader is RotJ is more than easy to explain- Theories
	Theory 4: Anakin sucks at swordfighting. Dooku, who was in his 70s or thereabouts at the time, cut off Anakin's arm. In a subsequent battle, Obi-Wan cut off the remaining limbs. Vader beat Luke the first time because Luke was inexperienced. In the rematch, Vader lost a mechanical hand. Anakin started life with four limbs and managed to get five extremities chopped off in lightsaber battles. Hell, give Elan Sleazebaggano a lightsaber and let him fight Vader/Anakin. He might actually kill the poor Sith son of a gun.
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EmeraldBlade Registered: Apr '08	Date Posted: 3/22 4:08pm Subject: The "easy" defeat of Darth Vader is RotJ is more than easy to explain- Theories
	Anakin lost his right arm 5 times (if anyone wants to bother me for a source then fine, but I don't have time right now). I honestly think he does it on purpose. If I was Sidious I would refuse to buy him anymore limbs. -----signature----- I am not Colour Blind, believe it or not. And I can spell, believe it or not.
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-MUSTAFAR- Registered: Mar '09	Date Posted: 3/25 2:30am Subject: The "easy" defeat of Darth Vader is RotJ is more than easy to explain- Theories
	Vader didn't have much left by ROTJ anyway. I believe the suit was weighing his aging, destroyed body down. He no longer had enough hate to harness the dark side in order to sustain himself as well as before. So Luke not only inspired him to break the chains of the dark side, but also to free himself from the physical prison he had earned in his life of evil.
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Eternity85 Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 3/25 4:00am Subject: The "easy" defeat of Darth Vader is RotJ is more than easy to explain- Theories
	The Rotj duel is a mirror of the duel on Mustafar. Anakin/Vader cant fight when he is emotional. He failed against Obi Wan, unfocused rage. When he fought Luke it was different, this time it was love. So i still believe in Anakin/Vaders`s conflict, Vader was shifting between light & dark during the whole movie, before he finally choose the light at the end. -----signature----- " Your eyes can deceive you, do not trust them." - Obi Wan Kenobi
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-MUSTAFAR- Registered: Mar '09	Date Posted: 3/26 2:55am Subject: The "easy" defeat of Darth Vader is RotJ is more than easy to explain- Theories
	This is an interesting topic. Let's delve into it more. In other words: bump.
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Edgeorge Registered: Aug '08	Date Posted: 7/21 3:20am Subject: The "easy" defeat of Darth Vader is RotJ is more than easy to explain- Theories
	Well yeah these are theories I've been developing since....leaves like Vader in ANH after he says "I haven't felt his presence since... That the Luke vs Vader fight in RotJ was actually longer but it was cut and the Endor fight was shown instead. Like, they hit their swords in Palp's face and in the next scene of the duel they are 10 feet away from Palp. Plus the novel describes much more fighting. Does that mean that they actually were fighting? Duh! I just love this kind of fanon that could very very easily be canon but simply not confirmed...yet. Mind boggling and this is what SW is all about- guessing, speculating, having fun- 3 to 1! -----signature----- Will Star Wars: The Old Rebublic be worth the waiting? Or, will it relinquish SW? If not, I really quit on Star Wars.
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Edgeorge Registered: Aug '08	Date Posted: 7/22 4:13am Subject: The "easy" defeat of Darth Vader is RotJ is more than easy to explain- Theories
	rsterling78 posted: Theory 4: Anakin sucks at swordfighting. Dooku, who was in his 70s or thereabouts at the time, cut off Anakin's arm. In a subsequent battle, Obi-Wan cut off the remaining limbs. Vader beat Luke the first time because Luke was inexperienced. In the rematch, Vader lost a mechanical hand. Anakin started life with four limbs and managed to get five extremities chopped off in lightsaber battles. Hell, give Elan Sleazebaggano a lightsaber and let him fight Vader/Anakin. He might actually kill the poor Sith son of a gun. Nah I wouldn't say that he is actually bad at swordfighting. I still like to picture him as immensely powerful in the Force, despite the fact that Lucas and certain authors make him seem WEAK. His P@Wn'Dom in Splinter of the Mind's Eye. -----signature----- Will Star Wars: The Old Rebublic be worth the waiting? Or, will it relinquish SW? If not, I really quit on Star Wars.
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VadersLaMent Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 7/23 5:38pm Subject: The "easy" defeat of Darth Vader is RotJ is more than easy to explain- Theories
	Why does no one give Luke any credit? Maybe Vader wasn't trying so hard, maybe he was at the end of a rope. Or how about Luke is a badass by the time of ROTJ? -----signature----- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic-Arthur C. Clarke Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God-Michael Shermer I'm a sexy shoeless GOD OF WAR! #347 on SLG's List Of Sexy Men
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Edgeorge Registered: Aug '08	Date Posted: 7/24 3:24am Subject: The "easy" defeat of Darth Vader is RotJ is more than easy to explain- Theories
	VadersLaMent posted: Why does no one give Luke any credit? Maybe Vader wasn't trying so hard, maybe he was at the end of a rope. Or how about Luke is a badass by the time of ROTJ? Because how badass can one become in a year? Luke could not have become so insanely strong! One of the many mistakes done in SW: One who seems either incredibly powerful or weak becomes the exact opossite in a few months. -----signature----- Will Star Wars: The Old Rebublic be worth the waiting? Or, will it relinquish SW? If not, I really quit on Star Wars.
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DarthBoba Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 7/24 5:23am Subject: The "easy" defeat of Darth Vader is RotJ is more than easy to explain- Theories
	My own favorite theory is that Vader (as opposed to Anakin) was so dedicated in turning Luke to the Dark Side that he was even willing to risk dying to accomplish it. He knows that Luke probably wouldn't kill him, and he was probably expecting Luke to go after Palpatine next. That plan went out the window when Luke threw his sabre away and Palpatine started blasting him with lightning-which also destroyed Palpatine's claim that the Jedi would kill him just because he was a Sith Lord. -----signature----- Only a Prime can defeat Vader and his Emperor.
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darth-sinister Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 7/25 1:56pm Subject: The "easy" defeat of Darth Vader is RotJ is more than easy to explain- Theories
	It's simple really, there are two answers here. 1. In universe, Luke had improved over the course of a year and when he fought this time, he was much better. The duel ends as it does, because Vader doesn't want to kill Luke, which is mentioned throughout. So when Luke loses it, it is more than Vader can handle. Luke may lack the experience, but he has the raw power that Anakin had at that age. 2. Lucas said that the ROTJ was not going to be just like TESB, when it was written and blocked out. TESB was about Luke trying to defeat his father's killer and Vader trying to turn him. ROTJ is about a son trying to save his father and his father struggling between him and his master. It was an emotional duel. -----signature----- Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge." Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side. Something, something, something complete."
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 7/25 4:20pm Subject: The "easy" defeat of Darth Vader is RotJ is more than easy to explain- Theories
	darth-sinister posted: because Vader doesn't want to kill Luke, which is mentioned throughout. Thank you!!! -----signature----- His legions, angel forms, who lay entranced. Thick as autumnal leaves that strow the brooks. <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> "Why don't you take your simplistic good/evil dualism and found Zoroastrianism?" - zweebex
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jc1138 Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 7/30 8:38pm Subject: The "easy" defeat of Darth Vader is RotJ is more than easy to explain- Theories
	I fall firmly in the camp that says Vader did not want to kill his son. He possessed far greater power and ability but deliberately chose not to tap that against his boy. I imagine myself having a sword fight with my child--I would let them kill me before trying to do them in. I realize that Vader savagely disfigured this same son in ESB. The thing is, this is a profoundly different Vader than the one at the end of the previous film. Much more melancholy and even a bit mournful. Sure Luke changed a lot between the films, but I believe that Vader/Anakin changed more. His redemption is really leading up throughout RotJ, although you have to read between the lines a bit.
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