Jedi Council Forums - Would it have been better writing if Kenobi just admitted to Luke that he lied?

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Author	Topic: Would it have been better writing if Kenobi just admitted to Luke that he lied?
DarthSeether Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 4/24 2:29pm Subject: Would it have been better writing if Kenobi just admitted to Luke that he lied?
	"Ben why didn't you tell me?" was a huge cliff-hanger question. It almost seemed to turn the whole saga upside down and even had some of us questioning if Kenobi was some kind of secretly manipulative evil character. But the answer we got in ROTJ was a bit...weak. "From a certain point of view..." --that just never felt satisfying. I do realize what he was saying: That Vader killed the good man who was his true self in a kind of metaphorical way. But honestly, if some mentor sent me off to kill my own father by telling me that he was actually my father's KILLER, I would expect a better explanation than "Oh...well...see I was just speaking metaphorically. Get it?" Couldn't it have been better writing to just have an explanation more like this: "Luke, I am truly sorry. I lied to you. I feared that if you knew the truth you would have immediately sought your father out and in so doing, you would have fallen into the hands of the Emperor. I did plan to tell you eventually--when you were fully trained as a Jedi. But things didn't work out as I had hoped." If Kenobi had said something along those lines, I could have accepted it better. A mentor admitting that he did something wrong, but that his heart was in the right place and he meant to do the right thing eventually is pretty understandable. But a mentor giving you really WRONG information just because you thought he was speaking literally but actually he was talking about your father's "spiritual death" is flat out deceptive. anyone else think that instead of the explanation we got, it might have been better if Kenobi just admitted that he lied for a good reason? -----signature----- The misconceptions you had about Star Wars, when you were a kid: "As if millions of oysters had cried out in terror...and were suddenly silenced."
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 4/24 2:40pm Subject: Would it have been better writing if Kenobi just admitted to Luke that he lied? - Date Edited: 4/24 2:41pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
	DarthSeether posted: "Ben why didn't you tell me?" was a huge cliff-hanger question. It almost seemed to turn the whole saga upside down and even had some of us questioning if Kenobi was some kind of secretly manipulative evil character. But the answer we got in ROTJ was a bit...weak. The real answer came from Yoda. Having Ben simply repeat Yoda's words would have seemed off. I for one am glad Obi-Wan didn't turn out to be some kind of secretly manipulative evil character. -----signature----- His legions, angel forms, who lay entranced. Thick as autumnal leaves that strow the brooks. <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> "Why don't you take your simplistic good/evil dualism and found Zoroastrianism?" - zweebex
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DarthSeether Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 4/24 3:07pm Subject: Would it have been better writing if Kenobi just admitted to Luke that he lied? - Date Edited: 4/24 3:08pm (1 edits total) Edited By: DarthSeether
	when you say the real answer came from Yoda, are you meaning the whole "unfortunate that you rush to face him, that incomplete was your training, that not ready for the burden were you." lines? that does link up well with the dialog I would have had Kenobi say. But it hardly seems like any answer--more like a lament about the state of things. And luke didn't seem to find it to be an explanation either, since immediately following it he demands to know why Kenobi didn't tell about Anakin's true fate. I'm not at all saying that I wanted a Palpatine-esq Kenobi who was secretly manipulating Luke. Just that it seemed like such a major betrayal at the end of ESB that many of us were actually contemplating that possibility. All I'm saying is that Kenobi's answer seemed very weak. Almost like Lucas was struggling to find a way to keep the character pure good, lily-white, and never having told a lie---so he just told the truth in a confusing way. I would have preferred it if Lucas had just conceded that although a good mentor, Kenobi was flawed and had lied in this instance. As long as he gave us a good reason for his lying, it would have been acceptable and believable. -----signature----- The misconceptions you had about Star Wars, when you were a kid: "As if millions of oysters had cried out in terror...and were suddenly silenced."
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 4/24 3:26pm Subject: Would it have been better writing if Kenobi just admitted to Luke that he lied?
	DarthSeether posted: when you say the real answer came from Yoda, are you meaning the whole "unfortunate that you rush to face him, that incomplete was your training, that not ready for the burden were you." lines? that does link up well with the dialog I would have had Kenobi say. But it hardly seems like any answer--more like a lament about the state of things. It's not about the present ( of that scene ), it's about the past. It's an explanation of why they did what they did, also expressed by Qui-Gon in Dark Lord. -----signature----- His legions, angel forms, who lay entranced. Thick as autumnal leaves that strow the brooks. <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> "Why don't you take your simplistic good/evil dualism and found Zoroastrianism?" - zweebex
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DarthSeether Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 4/24 3:38pm Subject: Would it have been better writing if Kenobi just admitted to Luke that he lied?
	I'm not understanding what you are referring to in regards to Yoda. -----signature----- The misconceptions you had about Star Wars, when you were a kid: "As if millions of oysters had cried out in terror...and were suddenly silenced."
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 4/24 3:44pm Subject: Would it have been better writing if Kenobi just admitted to Luke that he lied?
	Yoda agreed with Obi-Wan's plan to not tell Luke the truth until he had completed his training. -----signature----- His legions, angel forms, who lay entranced. Thick as autumnal leaves that strow the brooks. <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> "Why don't you take your simplistic good/evil dualism and found Zoroastrianism?" - zweebex
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DarthSeether Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 4/24 4:04pm Subject: Would it have been better writing if Kenobi just admitted to Luke that he lied?
	Is there EU that states that Yoda and Obi-Wan planned to tell Luke the truth once he was fully trained? Because from ROTJ alone, Yoda is being evasive right up to the end "rest I need...yes, rest." Luke practically had to demand the truth from him. Based on the movies alone, I'm not sure they EVER planned to tell the poor guy. Maybe after he killed his dad, lol. -----signature----- The misconceptions you had about Star Wars, when you were a kid: "As if millions of oysters had cried out in terror...and were suddenly silenced."
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 4/24 7:41pm Subject: Would it have been better writing if Kenobi just admitted to Luke that he lied?
	Yes. -----signature----- His legions, angel forms, who lay entranced. Thick as autumnal leaves that strow the brooks. <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> "Why don't you take your simplistic good/evil dualism and found Zoroastrianism?" - zweebex
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drg4 Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 4/24 8:19pm Subject: Would it have been better writing if Kenobi just admitted to Luke that he lied?
	Yoda's is the preferable answer, and Lucas should have given it to Obi-Wan, since the latter was the one associated with deception in Luke's eyes. It could've offered much in the way of pathos. Something along the lines of... Luke: "You lied to me!" OB: "What was I to say? That the butcher of the galaxy was your father? You were just a boy. And I loved you too much to give you that burden."
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 4/25 8:01am Subject: Would it have been better writing if Kenobi just admitted to Luke that he lied?
	It reminds me of the Jabba scene in ANH. Why have Jabba basically repeat Greedo's dialogue? -----signature----- His legions, angel forms, who lay entranced. Thick as autumnal leaves that strow the brooks. <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> "Why don't you take your simplistic good/evil dualism and found Zoroastrianism?" - zweebex
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DuracellEnergizer Registered: Apr '09	Date Posted: 4/25 1:27pm Subject: Would it have been better writing if Kenobi just admitted to Luke that he lied?
	Old Ben doesn't want to come right out and say he was lying because he doesn't want to admit to himself that he isn't the perfect Jedi -----signature----- Episode I Reimagined : The Beginning http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/30317264/p1/?1 ======================================= If KOTOR was any good, it'd be a book.
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snelson Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 4/27 6:12pm Subject: Would it have been better writing if Kenobi just admitted to Luke that he lied?
	i sometimes wish that obi-wan told luke that he lied. i know now it was qui-gon who told him not to tell luke. what he should have said luke--how did my father die ben--now is not the time to tell you wait untill you are ready. -----signature----- I Love 1930'S 1940'S 1950'S Movies Hermione Granger Is A Beautiful Witch Dreaming Of Jeannie Olivia DeHavilland Still Kicking At 93 Daniel Radcliffe Is So Sweet Like Harry
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DarthBoba Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 4/27 10:48pm Subject: Would it have been better writing if Kenobi just admitted to Luke that he lied?
	I think TESB shows greatly that Ben and Yoda weren't keeping the truth from Luke so that he'd off Vader and never know Vader was his father; it shows that they're keeping the truth from him to protect him. If they genuinely wanted Luke to kill Vader and never find out, why would they have any reason to keep Luke from going to Bespin? If anything, they should've been urging him to go if that was what they wanted. Instead, they repeatedly implore Luke not to leave until his training is ready-because they know full well that he's going to find out and that he's not remotely prepared for it. And they were right, too: Look at Luke in TESB after his suicide attempt fails. He's broken and can hardly function. Telling him beforehand-he's simply not ready to handle the knowledge of what Vader really is-it's clear from the scene where Luke and Obi-Wan talk about Anakin in ANH that Luke has an idealistic view of, and longing for, his father, and he's still impulsive and thinking with his emotions in TESB. By ROTJ, he's no longer doing so and was ready for the knowledge. -----signature----- Only a Prime can defeat Vader and his Emperor.
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DarthSeether Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 4/29 1:51pm Subject: Would it have been better writing if Kenobi just admitted to Luke that he lied? - Date Edited: 4/29 1:59pm (2 edits total) Edited By: DarthSeether
	that's a great point really. that the whole "you must complete the training" was more about getting him to a point that he was mentally prepared for the truth rather than just stronger in the force. honestly, so much of this could have been solved by just having kenobi's ghost say "We planned to tell you once your training was complete." instead of that ho-hum "from a certain point of view..." nonsense he gives luke. Much of ROTJ leaves me feeling unsatisfied like this to be honest. I would have liked it far better if han got leia because luke has chosen a more monk-like path to enlightenment far better than the whole "surprise they are twins!" angle. The ewoks winning the ground war was weak. The explanation for kenobi's deception was very weak. Darth Vader's unmasked face was disappointing. Even having a forest planet for the main action setting was mundane compared to ice planets, space stations, and cloud cities. overall, I think the writing of ROTJ could stand some improvement. -----signature----- The misconceptions you had about Star Wars, when you were a kid: "As if millions of oysters had cried out in terror...and were suddenly silenced."
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d_arblay Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 4/30 4:35am Subject: Would it have been better writing if Kenobi just admitted to Luke that he lied?
	"not ready for the burden were you" - remember yoda's line. its more than probable that qui-gon communicated with yoda and obi-wan and decided that luke should NOT be told until he was ready. but kenobi would not want to be a liar either, so he found a rather brilliant way of telling luke what was effectively the truth, just not the WHOLE truth. i like it a lot, i must say. i think the "you're going to find many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view" is an excellent justification. there are very few scenarios within our own life we cannot apply this line to. i often (sadly, i admit) use this to explain some of the day to day issues that consume us in our world; politics/crime/friendship etc. its one of the philosophies i really love. there is no black and white. i suppose you also have to consider that obi-wan felt there was no turning back. he felt that anakin could not be saved. he knew by telling luke that vader and the sith killed his father that luke would be more open to the idea of destroying vader and the emperor. and that was what obi-wan felt needed to happen. im not sure he cared about massaging the truth for the greater mission at hand. if he told luke a sith was his father, i'm sure he feared luke would eventually go down the same path - it is why he wanted luke to stay on dagobah so badly. i dont think it would work better if kenobi came out and said "well, i lied". when you watch it 1-6 your first reaction will of course be "he's lying! whats he doing?!" but episode 6 has to be the big pay off, and it is doubly so when we see the spirit of the young anakin at the end - which actually goes to show that what obi-wan told luke was in fact true all along. -----signature----- My own "Complete Saga" trailers: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=CDF92B3798BD4675 Hope you enjoy!
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prj1 Registered: Apr '05	Date Posted: 5/1 12:33pm Subject: Would it have been better writing if Kenobi just admitted to Luke that he lied?
	IMO, I believe that Ben lied to Luke, and if there was a plan to wait until Luke's Jedi training was completed, then, Ben should have politely told Luke in ANH, "The answer to that question is not for you to know right now," or something like that. I must admit that I was disappointed in Ben when he gave Luke that certain point of view stuff. Again, this is just my opinion. -----signature----- The Light Side of the Force Padawan YJCC Templars of Twilight Initiate: EUC President of the Count Dooku Fanclub 2.0: SWC President and Founder of the Chewbacca and Han Solo Fanclub: SWC My forum http://forces.forum-motion.com
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