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Author	Topic: Sith rule of two question...
DarthIktomi Registered: May '09	Date Posted: 5/13 5:53pm Subject: Sith rule of two question...
	In simple terms, they both know of each other's plan to turn have Luke kill the other, but they both plan to do it first. Yes, they're that arrogant. But are you surprised? This is the same Palpatine who told the Alliance right where he was, believing himself invincible. Come to think of it, it's the same Luke who let himself get captured by Vader.
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Darth Dark Helmet Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Dec '99	Date Posted: 5/13 6:00pm Subject: Sith rule of two question...
	Sven_Starcrown posted: D D Helmet posted: They've both been looking for a way to kill each other since about an hour after Vader turned to the dark side, they just don't discuss it outright. Sidious can kill Vader almost anytime. But he didn't have anyone to take his place. Why kill Vader when he's still useful, and the most powerful force user available? He's not about to downgrade his apprentice. But, then Luke comes along. Luke, who can be at least as powerful as Vader is, and has the advantage of not being trapped in a life-support suit. At this point, it becomes the smart move to try and replace Vader with Luke if he can. -----signature----- When dealing with genocide, you must ask yourself, "What would Hitler do?" And then, you know, do the opposite.
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Darthbane2007 Registered: Oct '07	Date Posted: 5/15 4:29am Subject: Sith rule of two question...
	Blade_of_Kenobi posted: Hello all, long time reader first time poster... So my question is, in the hologram chamber on the Executor in ESB, why would Sidious allow Vader to attempt to turn Luke to the darkside and become as he said "a valuable asset." Wouldn't he know that Vader is just setting him up to be overthrown? I know he senses Luke is powerful in the force but wouldn't he know Vader is just using him for his own agenda? Treachery is the way of the sith...
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Darth_Naveu Registered: May '09	Date Posted: 5/18 3:11pm Subject: Sith rule of two question...
	Because although the Emperor is powerful, he didn't sense what Darth Vader was thinking. Darth Vader is very good at blocking his thoughts, you know. And, maybe he wasn't thinking about his plan carefully, because he knew the Emperor woul be searching his thoughts. -----signature----- "What's the difference between an AT-AT and a stormtrooper on foot?" "One's an Imperial walker, and the other's a walking Imperial!" -Jacen Solo
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DarthIktomi Registered: May '09	Date Posted: 5/19 4:14pm Subject: Sith rule of two question...
	Sidious knows Vader is going to try to overthrow him, but Sidious wants to rely on Luke's hatred of Vader so that Luke kills Vader first. Of course, there's nothing to keep Luke from killing both of them and taking a new apprentice. It's what I'd do if I were Luke. (I mean, let's face it, the only thing that lets Sidious control Vader is that Vader himself can't kill Sidious.)
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Darth_Unicorn Registered: May '09	Date Posted: 5/25 9:57am Subject: Sith rule of two question...
	DarthIktomi posted: (I mean, let's face it, the only thing that lets Sidious control Vader is that Vader himself can't kill Sidious.) When in reality, it ends up being Vader that is his undoing.
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ILuvJarJar Registered: Oct '08	Date Posted: 5/25 10:09am Subject: Sith rule of two question...
	Once Vader turned Luke, Palpatine thought that Luke would kill vader and become Palps new apprentice. (since Luke is younger than Vader, therefore capable of doing more things that would support the Empire). -----signature----- ROTJ < ESB < ATOC < ANH < ROTS < TPM < TCW Star Wars Battlefront Elite Squadrons: Fall 2009 Proud President of the Salacious Crumb fanclub Star Wars>>>>>>>>My Social Life It is well worth it.....
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Jedi Merkurian Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 5/25 11:57am Subject: Sith rule of two question...
	According to GL's commentary on the ESB DVD, there can be more than 2 Sith...for a little while... -----signature----- Striking down can result in common side effects including fear, anger, aggresion, nausea, dry mouth, hatred, suffering, headaches, IBS, & in some extreme cases has been linked to lava burns Please consult your doctor before striking anyone down
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DarthBoba Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 5/25 12:11pm Subject: Sith rule of two question...
	Hernalt posted: "Star Wars - From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker" (1976): "Two meters tall, bipedal. Flowing black robes trailing from the figure and a face forever masked by a function if bizarre black metal breath screen - a Dark Lord of the Sith was an awesome, threatening shape as it strode through the corridors of the rebel ship. [PP] Fear followed the footsteps of all the Dark Lords. The cloud of evil which hung about this particular one was intense enough to cause hardened Imperial troops to back away..." This penned by the genius of Lucas in his prime. Unfortunately, Lucas didn't actually write that. Alan Dean Foster did, in 1976, from the fourth draft script, not the shooting script. And as long as we're trying to shove things from the ANH novel into the films, it was actually Blue Squadron that Luke was in at Yavin, Jabba the Hutt can jump in surprise, and the lightsabre duel was actually at lightning speed. -----signature----- Only a Prime can defeat Vader and his Emperor.
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darth-sinister Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 5/28 1:39pm Subject: Sith rule of two question...
	The situation is this. Vader learns about Luke, has a pretty good idea that this is his son. He was planning to turn the boy, so that he could use him to kill Palpatine. The problem is that Palpatine found out about, despite his best efforts to keep it on the down low. So now he has to find a solution to keep Luke alive, while he tries to convert him. The solution is that he has to suggest turning Luke, but he hopes that while he can, he can use the time alone to convince Luke to join him. It doesn't work and so Palpatine takes matters into his own hands and he comes closer, since he has more experience at this sort of thing, but he still fails as well. Treachery is the way of the Sith. Vader isn't stupid. He knows what happened to Tyranus. He knows it will happen again if he isn't careful. Coveting a new apprentice is a form of greed. If neither Sith is greedy, then what's the point? "At this point, Vader’s plan really, now that he knows he’s his son, is to convince him to come with him. Join the Dark Side and together they’re going to overthrow the Emperor, which is the thematic devices used through the whole movies in terms of the Sith, which is Sith Lords are usually no more than two because if there are three, then two of them will gang up on one to try to become the dominate Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn’t been debilitated and now he’s half machine and half man, so he’s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he’s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn’t. Luke is Vader’s hope. His motives at this point are purely evil. He simply wants to continue on what he was doing before which is get rid of the Emperor and make himself Emperor. He only sees his son as a mechanism for the ambition. His mad lust of power." --George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary. "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that." --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005. "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice." --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary. -----signature----- Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge." Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side. Something, something, something complete."
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Hernalt Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 5/28 2:37pm Subject: Sith rule of two question... - Date Edited: 5/28 2:39pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Hernalt
	I beg your pardon, DarthBoba, for forgetting that Alan Dean Foster was the ghostwriter for the ANH novelization. I knew it long ago and did not recall it. Lucas signed off on the novelization, because his name is attached to it. That is sufficient for my salient point, which was merely to echo the absence at the time of a formalized theory on a Rule of Two.
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DarthBoba Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 5/28 3:13pm Subject: Sith rule of two question...
	Yes, because a book based on a script that wasn't used in it's final form clearly indicates Lucas even read it, which is pretty unlikely, given how busy he was in 1975-1976, when the novel was actually published. ppor that Lucas' name being on the cover shows that he read it. -----signature----- Only a Prime can defeat Vader and his Emperor.
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Hernalt Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 5/28 8:56pm Subject: Sith rule of two question...
	I see where my phrase could be interpreted that way. Lucas' name is attached to it, which means he signed off on it, which means he had expectation of monetary return and willingness to not prosecute for infringement. The significance of a signature is legal. I did not assert that Lucas read it. But the fact that he signed off on it, even if he did not read it himself, means there is material similarity between its content and the content of the movie. The material similarity in the novelization does not in specific prove that Lucas had not formulated the Rule of Two at that point. At the time of posting I did not think the material relevance of the ANH quotation would be questioned in detail, as if the argument occurred in a vacuum, considering that both the ESB film and novelization have this dialogue: EMPEROR: We have a new enemy -- Luke Skywalker. VADER: Yes, my master. EMPEROR: He could destroy us. VADER: He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him. EMPEROR: The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi. VADER: If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally. EMPEROR: Yes. Yes. He would be a great asset. Can it be done? VADER: He will join us or die, my master. Had the Rule of Two been formulated by this time and in effect in Lucas' mind, it would have shown up here. What does show up is an organic opportunism by both Vader and the Emperor but no subtle or coded mention between the two of the principle of having a two alone and none more.
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darth-sinister Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 5/30 11:32am Subject: Sith rule of two question...
	Again, this is real simple. In the beginning, Lucas did have the idea of several Sith Lords running around. But as he was refining TESB, he dropped that idea and pared it down to Vader and Palpatine. This is evident in the revisions to ROTJ, where the story ends with the death of both Sith Lords. When he decided to not do VII-IX, he needed a hook and that came in the form of "The Rule Of Two". He based it off of what Vader said to Luke on Bespin and what Palpatine said to Luke aboard the DS II. VADER: "Luke. You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny. Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son." PALPATINE: "Good! Your hate has made you powerful. Now, fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side!" Both Sith Lords want Luke to kill the other. Vader wants Luke to kill Sidious so that they can rule together. Sidious wants to kill Vader and rule with Luke as his Apprentice. This is where the Rule of Two comes from. Note that for 20 years, the Sith work together without betrayal. Lucas used Dooku to re-enforce that in ROTS. Lucas didn't have much time to read the novelizations, but he was aware of them and what was written was based off what was supplied to them in terms of the script drafts. He only line edited ROTS, as far as we know. We do not know for certain if he did with ANH. -----signature----- Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge." Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side. Something, something, something complete."
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black_saber Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 5/30 6:33pm Subject: Sith rule of two question...
	I always thought there would be 3 sith Lords when I was a kid had luke turned to the Darkside. -----signature----- "Just when I thought I was out , they push me back in." I never liked micheal Jackson and he was always a looney.
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