Jedi Council Forums - What is wrong with the Ewoks? What is wrong with ROTJ? Logical arguments, please.

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Author	Topic: What is wrong with the Ewoks? What is wrong with ROTJ? Logical arguments, please.
Hernalt Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 5/13 12:44am Subject: What is wrong with the Ewoks? What is wrong with ROTJ? Logical arguments, please.
	I was watching ROTJ after a drink or two, and got to the Ewok section, and recalled that back in the TPM years of TFN, there were a few who objected to the Ewoks in particular, DSII as well, and ROTJ in general. Everyone is entitled to artistic difference. I do suspect that the "battle" on the Endor moon would suggest that Lucas was trying to reach a younger audience. No fast shootouts, Imperials run away rather than defend their position, etc. So I'm seeking logical arguments that explain \|why\| Ewoks, or Death Star II, or ROTJ, are faulty or ill-conceived products. Thank you in advance.
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MasterMonkey13 Registered: Dec '08	Date Posted: 5/13 6:02am Subject: What is wrong with the Ewoks? What is wrong with ROTJ? Logical arguments, please. - Date Edited: 5/13 6:02am (1 edits total) Edited By: MasterMonkey13
	I know that I can't answer for everyone, but this is why I think that many objected to ROTJ. The Empire Strikes Back was an adult film. It was geared towards adults. I suppose that a lot of people were expecting the same out of ROTJ. Instead, they were treated to fighting teddy bears. Personally, the only reason I have anything against the Ewoks is about how easily they were able to overcome the Empire. I mean, think about it, the greatest force in the galaxy being crushed by small, furry creatures. It just doesn't add up. I know it was supposed to be a way to symbolize how if we have enough determination, we can overcome impossible odds. That's very nice and all, but at least make it a battle. The Ewoks absolutely destroyed the Empire. I actually haven't heard any complaints about the DSII. THat's just my opinion. -----signature----- "There is no charge for awesomeness.....or attractiveness." Former Padawan of MsLanna / now I'm a Jedi Knight! Isaiah 41:10
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TwiLekJedi Title: Classic Trilogy Manager Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 5/13 6:48am Subject: What is wrong with the Ewoks? What is wrong with ROTJ? Logical arguments, please. - Date Edited: 5/13 6:50am (1 edits total) Edited By: TwiLekJedi
	MasterMonkey13 posted: The Ewoks absolutely destroyed the Empire. Ugh, not that again. Wildly spouted claim supported by absolutely nothing. Where is that thread from last month that did away with that silly notion... [edit]ah, here it is[/edit] And generally Ewoks are a brilliant masterstroke of storytelling and filmmaking compared the tedious side-quest at the beginning that might just as well have taken place in another universe. The only thing Jabba's palace was really good for was to provide the basis for a lot of kickass EU material. As a means to get Han Solo back it's a terrible idea and executed even worse. It only really gets a free pass because of that damn bikini. I skip the whole thing right after 3PO is taken away - because the droids are actually the only good thing about it. It feels like it's more of a spin-off right within the movie than the teddy bears who actually got spin-offs later. -----signature----- We do what we must Because we can For the good of all of us Except the ones who are dead
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halibut Title: FF GSA & FF-UK RSA / Saga Mod Registered: Aug '00	Date Posted: 5/13 8:43am Subject: What is wrong with the Ewoks? What is wrong with ROTJ? Logical arguments, please.
	The opening of ROTJ is my favourite part of the saga And yeah, ewoks didn't destroy the empire etc etc. They merely served as a temporary unknown diversion whilst the rebels did their thing. Had it gone on much longer, the ewoks would have been annihilated. They momentarily had the element of surprise. Nothing more, nothing less. -----signature----- They are not "songs", they are "tracks" or "cues" ROTJ - "It has a nice mix of muppets and patricide that you don't see very often" - Darthboba Everybody knows that the bird is the word!
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jedimasterbac Title: CT and Fan Design Manager Registered: Jun '04	Date Posted: 5/13 9:15am Subject: What is wrong with the Ewoks? What is wrong with ROTJ? Logical arguments, please.
	"Logical" is subjective, so I don't really think you can ask for logical arguments on a message board. Everyone is going to have their own opinion about what a logical argument is about this. -----signature----- Star Wars: Episode I - The Chosen One http://swfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Episode_I_-_The_Chosen_One Production blog: http://alternativesaga.wordpress.com/
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MasterMonkey13 Registered: Dec '08	Date Posted: 5/13 9:58am Subject: What is wrong with the Ewoks? What is wrong with ROTJ? Logical arguments, please. - Date Edited: 5/13 10:01am (1 edits total) Edited By: MasterMonkey13
	TwiLekJedi posted: MasterMonkey13 posted: The Ewoks absolutely destroyed the Empire. Ugh, not that again. Wildly spouted claim supported by absolutely nothing. Where is that thread from last month that did away with that silly notion... [edit]ah, here it is[/edit] Point well made. And that is simply my opinion. The Ewoks did not destroy the "entire" Empire, rather, they beat the Stormtroopers on the ground pretty easily. So, while they did not win the war, they won a battle very easily. So, what I was saying is, they destroyed the troopers who were guarding the shield generator and forced a retreat. -----signature----- "There is no charge for awesomeness.....or attractiveness." Former Padawan of MsLanna / now I'm a Jedi Knight! Isaiah 41:10
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halibut Title: FF GSA & FF-UK RSA / Saga Mod Registered: Aug '00	Date Posted: 5/13 3:14pm Subject: What is wrong with the Ewoks? What is wrong with ROTJ? Logical arguments, please.
	Pretty sure it was Chewie getting an AT-ST that beat the soldiers at the bunker. -----signature----- They are not "songs", they are "tracks" or "cues" ROTJ - "It has a nice mix of muppets and patricide that you don't see very often" - Darthboba Everybody knows that the bird is the word!
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Gary_Buchenara Registered: Apr '09	Date Posted: 5/13 4:33pm Subject: What is wrong with the Ewoks? What is wrong with ROTJ? Logical arguments, please.
	I think the main thing that was "wrong" with ROTJ, if we're talking about general negative response, is that it was the film which had the unenviable task of following TESB. How do you follow possibly the greatest moment in cinema history and not fall short to some extent? Most people I know like ROTJ, just not as much as it's predecessor. If we're talking specifics, there are a few things which seem to come up again and again. 1. A second Death Star. Not that original perhaps. 2. Ewoks. A bit "Disney" for many who loved the dark and more adult TESB. 3. The brother and sister thing. A bridge too far on the whole family theme? 4. Han may have been a little redundant. As to whether any of that is logical, I guess that's fairly subjective. If you like Ewoks, criticism of them probably does seem illogical.
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drg4 Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 5/13 8:19pm Subject: What is wrong with the Ewoks? What is wrong with ROTJ? Logical arguments, please.
	Gary_Buchenara posted: I think the main thing that was "wrong" with ROTJ, if we're talking about general negative response, is that it was the film which had the unenviable task of following TESB. How do you follow possibly the greatest moment in cinema history and not fall short to some extent? I've heard this argument before, and I don't buy it. Plenty of follow-ups, however inferior, at least managed to preserve the intelligence and spirit of the source material, while striving to bring something new to the table (e.g., Psycho II, Terminator 2: Judgment Day, Babe: Pig in the City). ROTJ is just warmed-over Star Wars.
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Gary_Buchenara Registered: Apr '09	Date Posted: 5/13 9:46pm Subject: What is wrong with the Ewoks? What is wrong with ROTJ? Logical arguments, please.
	How do you think something in the tone of ROTJ would've been received as Star Wars II?
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drg4 Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 5/13 11:11pm Subject: What is wrong with the Ewoks? What is wrong with ROTJ? Logical arguments, please. - Date Edited: 5/13 11:33pm (1 edits total) Edited By: drg4
	Because ROTJ marks Lucas's retreat back to the style of the original film. The characters have largely reverted back to cardboard cutouts, spectacle eclipses substance, and two of the major setpieces are either lazy replications (Death Star II) or meandering extensions (Cantina sequence balloons into Jabba's 30 minute muppet show). This isn't a knock against ANH, by the way. That film had sincere performances, a finely-tuned whimsy, and a transporting beauty. On edit: Apologies. I misread your "how" as "why?" If Star Wars II carried the tone of ROTJ, I think it would have performed as well, if not better, than TESB, but the series wouldn't have lasting value amongst many adult fans. It would be more of a fixture of nostalgia than an ever-resonant myth to which one clings.
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timmoishere Registered: Jun '07	Date Posted: 5/13 11:15pm Subject: What is wrong with the Ewoks? What is wrong with ROTJ? Logical arguments, please.
	The Ewoks were getting their cute furry asses handed to them until Chewbacca hijacked an AT-ST. The Ewoks' knowledge of the terrain gave them a slight advantage in a few circumstances (log traps, strategically placed swinging vines, supplies of big heavy rocks), but there is no way an Ewok could beat a stormtrooper one on one. -----signature----- Will do moose stuff for money. Everything tastes better wrapped in bacon, especially bacon 11/20/2008: The day I married the most wonderful woman in the world.
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Eternity85 Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 5/14 1:57am Subject: What is wrong with the Ewoks? What is wrong with ROTJ? Logical arguments, please.
	Discussing this topic always makes me sad. The only thing i really like in ROTJ is what truly matters. Its the Luke,Vader & Emperor scenes. I dont know what Lucas was thinking, but its like he was running out of ides, so he just choose to put something random into the movie. Why? Its the final chapter of the most epic tale ever told in movie history. Because of the Endor & Tatooine scenes, Rotj is one of my least favorite SW films. Thats all im going to say regarding this. People have to stop posting new topics on this subject, its a never ending story. -----signature----- " Your eyes can deceive you, do not trust them." - Obi Wan Kenobi
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Go-Mer-Tonic Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 5/14 8:21am Subject: What is wrong with the Ewoks? What is wrong with ROTJ? Logical arguments, please.
	Nothing is wrong with the Ewoks. They didn't defeat the Empire (in fact the Empire was decimating them). I think some people just inherently have problems with anything that is light hearted. These movies simply can't be fully enjoyed by cynical or mean people. It's a movie series geared towards the optimistic and good natured members of the audience. -----signature----- "...that’s not my job, to make people like my movies. They either like them or they don’t. That’s completely out of my hands.” -Lucas "At least I will have finished what I set out to do, and at least they will have been good to me." -Lucas
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TwiLekJedi Title: Classic Trilogy Manager Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 5/14 9:21am Subject: What is wrong with the Ewoks? What is wrong with ROTJ? Logical arguments, please.
	Usually I'm very cynical, but I could never get rid of that "Star Wars, ** Yeah!" feeling - and the Endor battle just enhances that. Especially that one cut from a tree getting splintered to the space battle. Yeah! Actually, I think my feeling is only "John Williams, ** Yeah!" Battle of Endor I is the best piece ever and Ewok Battle kicks ass, too. The concert suite Forest Battle kicks more ass, though. Incidentally, most of the Jabba's palace music sucks. -----signature----- We do what we must Because we can For the good of all of us Except the ones who are dead
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Hernalt Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 5/14 1:46pm Subject: What is wrong with the Ewoks? What is wrong with ROTJ? Logical arguments, please.
	1) ESB (running time 2:04) set a trajectory of complex adult emotional terrain, including betrayal (Lando), forgiveness (Leia, Chewy), kinship with evil (Luke), revision of exterior (Leia “my hands are dirty”, metaphoric of multipartisanship/alliance), revision of interior (Han “General Reikan, I gotta go, there’s a price on my head), dismemberment (Luke and maybe 3PO), and the fluid nature of space worms (3PO). 2) ROTJ (running time 2:14) dealt only with a handful of complex issues, kinship with evil (Luke), redemption (Vader), and revision of interior (Han; Leia’s attachment to Han was largely conditional upon him being in the ‘new religion’ of the Rebel Alliance, but Han gets no scene where he demonstrates loyalty without incentive to the principles of the Rebel Alliance, and we cannot know he is ‘on board’.) 3) The remainder of emotional terrain from ESB is leveled out to a constant or an assumed solution. Lando gets no scene where suspicion of his motives is considered and then put to rest. Running time could have guided these choices. 4) I wouldn’t dare defend the “damn bikini” against crusaders of the “male gaze” (Laura Mulvey), except to point out that it served as a ‘code clearance’ to a female agency of strangling Jabba with his own chain. Also, if there was a way to contrast beauty and beast (principle and expedience), it does that. 5) From my position of artistic difference (no credentials), it appears to me that the arguments pro/con re Jabba, Ewoks, and DSII are, from the logical perspectives radiating from their individual positions of artistic difference, a net sum of artistic difference. (The vectors point everywhere.) 6) IMO, It appears the argument “ESB was dark and more adult” is the only argument that is logical and free of artistic difference. I.e., solely logical. (The vectors are largely parallel.) Thank you all for your perspectives, warnings, and lamentations on this question.
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