Jedi Council Forums - "damn fool idealistic crusade"

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Author	Topic: "damn fool idealistic crusade"
Hernalt Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 5/30 7:06pm Subject: "damn fool idealistic crusade" - Date Edited: 5/30 7:11pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Hernalt
	To reduce friction between OT and PT, what is the most economical viewer POV regarding Obi-Wan's reference to a "damn fool idealistic crusade"? As of now, I suppose Obi-Wan (ultimately) made a sophisticated, sardonic, sarcastic, ironical reference to Owen Lars' (eventual) provincial, plebeian, peasant, layman opinion of the Jedi 1) seeking to prevent the separation of the Republic and/or 2) hoping in some prophecy about some "chosen one" or some "balance of the force", whatever that means to a moisture farmer. Fact from ANH: Not everyone knew about or believed in The Force. Fact from ANH: The Force was not perceived to control everyone's destiny. Fact from TPM: Tatooine is outside the Republic. Fact from ROTS: Owen knew of Anakin Skywalker's capacity, since he brought back his mother's body where 30+ Tatooine farmers could not. Fact from ROTS: Owen knew that Obi-Wan brought a male infant to be raised. Inference in ANH in light of ROTS: Owen learned, discovered, or inferred, sooner or later, that the infant "Skywalker" was none other than the son of Anakin Skywalker. (No data how common the name.) Inference in ANH in light of ROTS: Owen inferred, sooner or later, that Obi-Wan had a remaining/ultimate interest in the infant when he settled not far from the Lars homestead.
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darth-sinister Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 5/31 11:29am Subject: "damn fool idealistic crusade"
	The reference is to when Anakin went off to fight in the Clone Wars. Following the death of his mother and the funeral, Anakin and Padme are summoned back to their ship when a message from Obi-wan has been detected. Anakin leaves shortly thereafter and three years later, the Jedi are blamed for trying to overthrow the Republic and Anakin is among the casualties in the Jedi Purge. Owen felt that Anakin shouldn't have left to fight in a war that he was going to lose. This anger is directed towards Obi-wan, after bringing him Luke to raise. This is why he doesn't want Obi-wan around him and doesn't want Luke to know about his Jedi heritage. And why he doesn't want Luke to go to the academy. He's afraid that he will lose his life like Anakin did. -----signature----- Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge." Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side. Something, something, something complete."
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JEDIGUNSHIP Title: C&G Game Host Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 5/31 12:38pm Subject: "damn fool idealistic crusade"
	Nice analysis there. I have nothing more to add. -----signature----- Blue and yellow make a green lightsaber. How do you get red out of blue? Council Member in the New Jedi Trials/ Commander-in-Chief of the Rebel Alliance Addicted to Rock Band 2 and Proud of It! SWC Secret Rebel '09 Band Geek For Life!
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Hernalt Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 6/1 4:25pm Subject: "damn fool idealistic crusade"
	Salient dialogue from DVD: "No, my father didn't fight in the wars. He was a navigator on a spice freighter. ... That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals - Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved. ... Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damn fool idealistic crusade like your father did." Darth-sinister, if I tilt my head sideways and squint I agree that your posted POV mechanically stitches the two films in terms of what the camera blocked and what characters were present at what times. But now that we know what the "Clone Wars" were all about (or, in the case of re-viewing the 1977 film named simply "Star Wars", what the Clone Wars Had Been all about), what I don't get is the two references to idealism. What was idealistic about the Clone Wars? Their purpose, if one can be summed, was to preserve the democratic and representative Republic, even at the Faustian cost of building an army of conscienceless, blindly obedient fodder. The Clone troops deployed to preserve the Republic did not themselves represent or derive from the public at all, and were closer to Hessians than to a National Guard. Owen felt that Anakin shouldn't have left to fight in a war that he was going to lose. I do not see where the camera in AOTC telescopes or foreshadows this. It makes sense that the name "Anakin Skywalker" might show up on a list of dead Jedi, news of which might find its way to the Outer Rim. But in the moment of Anakin's leaving Tatooine, all that Owen could have known was that the Republic, of which Tatooine was no part, was having trouble retaining all its constituency. In terms of the attempted Jedi coup that was promulgated by the Chancellor at the end of ROTS (3+ years after AOTC?), Owen could only at that time have gained enough data to formulate an opinion about Anakin's leaving Tatooine, 3+ years earlier, that had anything to do with the "idealism" component of his being a Jedi, whether that was idealism fighting _Alongside_ Clone troops, whose origin and mechanism contradicted their published purpose, or idealism trying to _Stop_ the Chancellor from handcrafting the Empire. (Here I assume ANH Owen is as dissatisfied with the Empire is every other non-Rebel reference to its oppressiveness, from the likes of Luke, Han, Lando, not to mention Tarkin). Luke's question was about the Clone Wars, not a Jedi coup/purge, and Obi Wan logically would only refer to the Clone Wars, and not a Jedi coup/purge, in his reply. Luke learns about the Jedi purge only after he learns about the 'idealistic crusade'. While re-watching ANH, I'm ok attributing to Owen Lars some additional underlying emotions concerning the dangers Luke might face, and your posted POV maps well for the most part to the scenes with just Owen and Beru concerning him staying on another season (deft). I don't think the 'idealistic crusade' aspect of the Clone Wars is spelled out yet. Heh. I have to mention what certainly not a single of all here has failed to hear about or personally observe, but which bears amusement, being ANH 30:07 to 30:10, where Alec Guinness's eyes go slowly down Luke's legs and linger on his feet, while saying, "Rest easy son - you've had a busy day. You're fortunate to be all in one piece!" Whether by accident or design, this is an example where the old wine is made better by the new.
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anakin_girl Title: Founding Member & Retired FF CR Charlotte , NC Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 6/1 5:19pm Subject: "damn fool idealistic crusade"
	Am I missing something? I always assumed that Obi-Wan flat-out told Owen and Beru who Luke's parents were, although I figured that he also told them that Anakin and Padme were both dead and that's why he was bringing Luke to Owen and Beru. I didn't think Obi-Wan brought them "an infant boy" without telling them who Luke was. -----signature----- "A person should not believe in an -ism, a person should believe in himself." Ferris Bueller
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celera Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/1 8:12pm Subject: "damn fool idealistic crusade"
	The Clone Wars didn't happen yet when Anakin met Owen. I think what Owen meant by "damn fool idealistic crusade" was being a Jedi in general. I can also picture him having a negative attitude towards the Naboo practice of letting kids be politicians because it's such a dangerous job.
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 6/1 8:23pm Subject: "damn fool idealistic crusade" - Date Edited: 6/1 8:26pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
	celera posted: I think what Owen meant by "damn fool idealistic crusade" was being a Jedi in general. Anakin became a Jedi padawan long before meeting Owen, and he was following Qui-Gon when he left Tatooine, not Obi-Wan. -----signature----- His legions, angel forms, who lay entranced. Thick as autumnal leaves that strow the brooks. <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> "Why don't you take your simplistic good/evil dualism and found Zoroastrianism?" - zweebex
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Obironsolo Registered: Feb '05	Date Posted: 6/1 10:16pm Subject: "damn fool idealistic crusade"
	anakin_girl posted: Am I missing something? I always assumed that Obi-Wan flat-out told Owen and Beru who Luke's parents were, although I figured that he also told them that Anakin and Padme were both dead and that's why he was bringing Luke to Owen and Beru. I didn't think Obi-Wan brought them "an infant boy" without telling them who Luke was. Of course he told them who Luke's parents were. What possible sense would it make to bring them an "infant baby" if it wasn't Anakin's? Luke called them aunt and uncle. This should not be debated. As stated above, the deception may have been to say that Anakin was dead, and to leave out the dark side part. Although we don't really know if Obi-Wan even knew Anakin was alive at that point. As a kid, I always assumed Owen DID know about Anakin's dark turn, which was why when Beru says Luke has too much of his father in him, Owen says that's what scares him. After the prequels, that became questionable.
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voodoopuuduu Title: Classic Trilogy Trivia Host Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 6/2 8:54am Subject: "damn fool idealistic crusade" - Date Edited: 6/2 9:01am (1 edits total) Edited By: voodoopuuduu
	As of now, I suppose Obi-Wan (ultimately) made a sophisticated, sardonic, sarcastic, ironical reference to Owen Lars' (eventual) provincial, plebeian, peasant, layman opinion of the Jedi Ive kind of looked at that statement as Obi-Wans pragmatic assessment of himself. "Idealistic" is a term I feel Owen wouldnt have used, it doesnt seem in his character. -----signature----- Winner CT Trivia Challenge 44, 54 Winner PT Trivia Challenge 10 , 13, 14, 17 Joint-Winner CT Challenge 49 and 50, PT Challange 18
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darth-sinister Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 6/2 1:57pm Subject: "damn fool idealistic crusade"
	Hernalt posted: Owen felt that Anakin shouldn't have left to fight in a war that he was going to lose. I do not see where the camera in AOTC telescopes or foreshadows this. It makes sense that the name "Anakin Skywalker" might show up on a list of dead Jedi, news of which might find its way to the Outer Rim. But in the moment of Anakin's leaving Tatooine, all that Owen could have known was that the Republic, of which Tatooine was no part, was having trouble retaining all its constituency. Owen, like most of the people in the Outer Rim worlds like Tatooine, save the Republic for what it was. An arcahic institution whose time has passed. News travels fast via the Holonet and hearing how corrupt the Republic had become and the growing Separatist movement, resulted in many people losing faith in the Republic. They ignored the Outer Rim and worlds like Tatooine, where slavery is still in effect. The Republic has never done anything of importance for them. They are very much like a third world country. When Anakin left, Owen didn't understand why. Not until he found out about Geonosis and the start of the Clone Wars as the Holonet Media called it. Owen felt that Anakin shouldn't have gotten involved. Hernalt posted: In terms of the attempted Jedi coup that was promulgated by the Chancellor at the end of ROTS (3+ years after AOTC?), Owen could only at that time have gained enough data to formulate an opinion about Anakin's leaving Tatooine, 3+ years earlier, that had anything to do with the "idealism" component of his being a Jedi, whether that was idealism fighting _Alongside_ Clone troops, whose origin and mechanism contradicted their published purpose, or idealism trying to _Stop_ the Chancellor from handcrafting the Empire. (Here I assume ANH Owen is as dissatisfied with the Empire is every other non-Rebel reference to its oppressiveness, from the likes of Luke, Han, Lando, not to mention Tarkin). The Jedi believed in the Republic and how it had been once upon a time. The Jedi wanted to stop the Confederacy, reunite the worlds that joined in and weed out the corruption in the Senate. That was idealistic, but it was foolish to believe that they could really do that. The Jedi were trying to stop change, something that went against their philosophy. Hernalt posted: Luke's question was about the Clone Wars, not a Jedi coup/purge, and Obi Wan logically would only refer to the Clone Wars, and not a Jedi coup/purge, in his reply. Luke learns about the Jedi purge only after he learns about the 'idealistic crusade'. That's not what happens. Luke asks about his father when they arrive at Obi-wan's hovel and Obi-wan tells him about his involvement in the Clone Wars. BEN: "That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals. Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved." The ideals represent the Jedi Order's, which was to help everyone selflessly. Without a thought of reward. A life in service to the Republic. Luke asks about what it is that Anakin wanted him to have that Owen didn't. The Jedi Purge had nothing to do with what Luke asks. He knows the public record about the Jedi fighting in the Clone Wars and being wiped out. He just wanted to know about his father, which Obi-wan tells him the truth about. Luke doesn't ask about the Clone Wars or the Jedi Purge. -----signature----- Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge." Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side. Something, something, something complete."
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DuracellEnergizer Registered: Apr '09	Date Posted: 6/2 2:57pm Subject: "damn fool idealistic crusade" - Date Edited: 6/2 2:58pm (1 edits total) Edited By: DuracellEnergizer
	darth-sinister posted: Owen felt that Anakin shouldn't have gotten involved. Why exactly would he care what Anakin did or didn't do with his life? They didn't even know each other. -----signature----- Episode I Reimagined : The Beginning http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/30317264/p1/?1 ======================================= If KOTOR was any good, it'd be a book.
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CaptainYossarian Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 6/2 3:55pm Subject: "damn fool idealistic crusade"
	Anakin chose a certain path in life which ended with him dying. Now his son's an orphan and Owen and Beru have to take care of him. Owen's opinion is that if Anakin had chosen a different (less risky) lifestyle then things might have been better. Other people suffered because of his decsion to 'get involved' with things that shouldn't have concerned those from Tatooine. -----signature----- "Orr would be crazy to fly any more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to.
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DuracellEnergizer Registered: Apr '09	Date Posted: 6/2 4:04pm Subject: "damn fool idealistic crusade"
	CaptainYossarian posted: Anakin chose a certain path in life which ended with him dying. Now his son's an orphan and Owen and Beru have to take care of him. Owen's opinion is that if Anakin had chosen a different (less risky) lifestyle then things might have been better. Other people suffered because of his decsion to 'get involved' with things that shouldn't have concerned those from Tatooine. The only problem with that theory is that it was implied in ANH that Owen didn`t want Anakin to get involved with the Jedi prior to leaving Tatooine, and not years after everything went to hell. -----signature----- Episode I Reimagined : The Beginning http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/30317264/p1/?1 ======================================= If KOTOR was any good, it'd be a book.
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KennethMorgan Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 6/2 8:19pm Subject: "damn fool idealistic crusade"
	I think Owen just thought Ani should've stayed home and looked after his mom, rather than going off the save the galaxy. Owen strikes me as the sort of man who'd figure that your family comes first, which is largely the opposite of Jedi teachings. He may have even figured that being committed to the Jedi led to Ani not coming to Shmi's rescue until it was too late (which is actually sort of true). Basically, I believe Ben and Owen just plain didn't understand each other's position. Ben, who's been a Jedi his whole life, can't imagine putting your own family ahead of the needs of others, while Owen doesn't understand how you can turn your back on your own and fight to save people you don't even know. Fortunately, Luke is able to do both and save the day. As for Owen blaming Ben, who else is left to blame? All of the other Jedi are gone, so Ben represents the whole Jedi Order, which Owen blames for Ani's sad fate. -----signature----- -30-
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jedibri Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 6/3 2:45am Subject: "damn fool idealistic crusade"
	I think most of the people on Tatooine thought "old" Ben was a radical. Owen even called him a "crazy old wizard." -----signature----- Isaiah 41:13
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darth-sinister Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 6/3 1:19pm Subject: "damn fool idealistic crusade"
	DuracellEnergizer posted: darth-sinister posted: Owen felt that Anakin shouldn't have gotten involved. Why exactly would he care what Anakin did or didn't do with his life? They didn't even know each other. No, but he knew enough from the five years Shmi lived with him. And the fact that Anakin failed in his endeavors, which got him killed and force Owen to take care of his kid, these are reasons why he feels this way later on. If Anakin hadn't gotten involved, he'd still be alive and taking care of his own kid. Rather than dying in a senseless and futile conflict. -----signature----- Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge." Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side. Something, something, something complete."
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