Author Topic: Wookiees In ROTJ Could Have Worked
Artoo-Dion  60 posts
Registered: Jun '09
6241_R2-D2
Date Posted: 6/9 7:50pm Subject: Wookiees In ROTJ Could Have Worked
DuracellEnergizer posted:
It would be a whole lot easier to swallow if at least their primitive Stone Age arrows hadn't been able to pierce supposedly advanced stormtrooper armour.


Well, it's not like the Empire's tech hadn't already been established as being technically marvellous but also ridiculously vulnerable. Take the Death Star's exhaust port, for example.

 

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Gary_Buchenara  393 posts
Registered: Apr '09
8068_R5-D4
Date Posted: 6/9 7:57pm Subject: Wookiees In ROTJ Could Have Worked
Good point.

 

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DuracellEnergizer  363 posts
Registered: Apr '09
14798_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 6/9 7:58pm Subject: Wookiees In ROTJ Could Have Worked
Artoo-Dion posted:
Well, it's not like the Empire's tech hadn't already been established as being technically marvellous but also ridiculously vulnerable. Take the Death Star's exhaust port, for example.


Technically the Death Star needed an exhaust port. Otherwise you get a bad case of mechanical indigestion. grin

 

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Dark--Helmet  294 posts
Registered: Apr '03
6456_Yoda - Concentraaaate!
Date Posted: 6/11 3:57pm Subject: Wookiees In ROTJ Could Have Worked
DuracellEnergizer posted:
Most Star Wars fans know that Wookiees were originally going to be in ROTJ, but that Lucas changed them into Ewoks.

His reasoning behind the change? Well, he wanted the Wookiee/Imperial battle to draw parallels between the Viet Cong/US military conflict during the Vietnam War - namingly that a primitive society could defeat a far more technologically advanced enemy. But since Chewie was shown to have mechanical skills in ANH and TESB (and because the Wookiees were shown to have technology in the Holiday Special, I suppose) Lucas decided to replace the Wookiees with a new species - the dwarfish Ewoks.

But Lucas could have still had Wookiees put into ROTJ. Here are two scenarios that could have been used to get around the "Wookiee = advanced" issue:


1. Slave traders visited the Wookiee homeworld and kidnapped Chewbacca, taking him from his home and selling him into slavery. The Wookiees could have been pre-technological primitives, but Chewbacca learned how to operate and fix technology while offworld in service to his owners.

2. A group of Wookiees left their homeworld in the distant past and established a colony on Endor. For one reason or another they lost the ability to operate and create their technology, resulting in them devolving to a pre-technological level. Chewbacca - and his people - would have an understanding of technology, but the Endorian Wookiees wouldn't.


I can't see why Lucas didn't go one of these or a similar route while making ROTJ. Resorting to using Ewoks as a replacement was sort of a drastic move.



The first one is what I had in mind also.




Artoo-Dion posted:
Well, it's not like the Empire's tech hadn't already been established as being technically marvellous but also ridiculously vulnerable. Take the Death Star's exhaust port, for example.



The Rebels are still on the same physical and tech level as the empire.They didn't Flintstone power there fighters and blow up the DS with a huge Rock.



 

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Artoo-Dion  60 posts
Registered: Jun '09
6241_R2-D2
Date Posted: 6/11 4:16pm Subject: Wookiees In ROTJ Could Have Worked
Dark--Helmet posted:
The Rebels are still on the same physical and tech level as the empire.They didn't Flintstone power there fighters and blow up the DS with a huge Rock.


IMHO, you're missing the larger thematic point of overconfidence in technology designed for destruction. It's the ultimate irony that the technologically powerful Empire was defeated by the (literal) "little guys" whom they dismissed out of hand. See also: David and Goliath and HG Wells' War of the Worlds.

But, in any case, look at the AT-ATs in ESB. It wasn't proton torpedoes that brought them down but simple cables, very much along the lines of the Ewok technology.

 

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Dark--Helmet  294 posts
Registered: Apr '03
6456_Yoda - Concentraaaate!
Date Posted: 6/11 4:32pm Subject: Wookiees In ROTJ Could Have Worked - Date Edited: 6/11 4:37pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Dark--Helmet
Artoo-Dion posted:
Dark--Helmet posted:
The Rebels are still on the same physical and tech level as the empire.They didn't Flintstone power there fighters and blow up the DS with a huge Rock.


IMHO, you're missing the larger thematic point of overconfidence in technology designed for destruction. It's the ultimate irony that the technologically powerful Empire was defeated by the (literal) "little guys" whom they dismissed out of hand. See also: David and Goliath and HG Wells' War of the Worlds.

But, in any case, look at the AT-ATs in ESB. It wasn't proton torpedoes that brought them down but simple cables, very much along the lines of the Ewok technology.



It's not rocket science,just about everybody gets the thematic point,it just that the execution is bad.Wookies would worked and so would better executed ewoks.


David and Goliath where still on the same level.

Weren't the aliens beaten buy a virus?

In ESB it's the Snowspeeders that take the Walkers down.How they where wrapped up(the cable was prob a hi-tech steel) and got into position could only have been done with Snowspeeders.


 

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Artoo-Dion  60 posts
Registered: Jun '09
6241_R2-D2
Date Posted: 6/11 5:51pm Subject: Wookiees In ROTJ Could Have Worked
Dark--Helmet posted:
It's not rocket science,just about everybody gets the thematic point,it just that the execution is bad.Wookies would worked and so would better executed ewoks.


As I said upthread, the physical strength of Wookiees undermines that very same thematic point. In that case, it'd be a simple battle scene, which we got in ROTS anyway.

Dark--Helmet posted:
David and Goliath where still on the same level.

Weren't the aliens beaten buy a virus?


David and Goliath were certainly not on the same level, this being the entire point of the story. Goliath was about nine foot tall and equipped with a shield, a sword and a spear, whereas David was a youth armed with only a slingshot, and yet he still managed to kill Goliath. "Size matters not", as Yoda would say, but "size" is a metaphor for scale, strength, technological might, etc.

Same with War of the Worlds -- the strongest of foes can be brought down by the smallest of things (in this case a virus).

In all these stories, the moral is "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall." The Empire's faith in their "technological terror" was exactly their weakness, and having physically strong Wookiees bring them down would have served a different theme: (technological) might vs. (physical) might. ROTJ would be a totally different movie lacking the thematic weight it currently has.

Dark--Helmet posted:
In ESB it's the Snowspeeders that take the Walkers down.How they where wrapped up(the cable was prob a hi-tech steel) and got into position could only have been done with Snowspeeders.


A strong fibre rope projected with a primitive harpoon would have done just as well. Again the point of the scene is that conventional technology could not defeat the Walkers because it was merely might vs. might. It was only by using the unexpected, low-tech option that they could defeat the Walkers.

 

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Arden_Kingslayer 
Registered: Jun '09
22187_Jango Fett
Date Posted: 6/11 7:55pm Subject: Wookiees In ROTJ Could Have Worked
Wookiees in ROJ was have resulted in a much better film, probably the best in the classic trilogy. Even when I was ten, I didn't buy the concept of the Ewoks "distracting" (to use Lucas's words) the Empire, but to have the Wookies have done it might have been a little less far fetched. It could have always been explained that just because Chewy was more advanced in technology, didn't mean all the Wookies had to be. Having the Ewoks in the film make its hard to watch for me, especially because I think the parts with out them work quite well. But alteast we got to see Wookies fight (some what) in ROTS.

 

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Dark--Helmet  294 posts
Registered: Apr '03
6456_Yoda - Concentraaaate!
Date Posted: 6/11 8:34pm Subject: Wookiees In ROTJ Could Have Worked
Artoo-Dion posted:
Dark--Helmet posted:
It's not rocket science,just about everybody gets the thematic point,it just that the execution is bad.Wookies would worked and so would better executed ewoks.


As I said upthread, the physical strength of Wookiees undermines that very same thematic point. In that case, it'd be a simple battle scene, which we got in ROTS anyway.

Dark--Helmet posted:
David and Goliath where still on the same level.

Weren't the aliens beaten buy a virus?


David and Goliath were certainly not on the same level, this being the entire point of the story. Goliath was about nine foot tall and equipped with a shield, a sword and a spear, whereas David was a youth armed with only a slingshot, and yet he still managed to kill Goliath. "Size matters not", as Yoda would say, but "size" is a metaphor for scale, strength, technological might, etc.

Same with War of the Worlds -- the strongest of foes can be brought down by the smallest of things (in this case a virus).

In all these stories, the moral is "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall." The Empire's faith in their "technological terror" was exactly their weakness, and having physically strong Wookiees bring them down would have served a different theme: (technological) might vs. (physical) might. ROTJ would be a totally different movie lacking the thematic weight it currently has.

Dark--Helmet posted:
In ESB it's the Snowspeeders that take the Walkers down.How they where wrapped up(the cable was prob a hi-tech steel) and got into position could only have been done with Snowspeeders.


A strong fibre rope projected with a primitive harpoon would have done just as well. Again the point of the scene is that conventional technology could not defeat the Walkers because it was merely might vs. might. It was only by using the unexpected, low-tech option that they could defeat the Walkers.




The empire losing to the little guys is still there with Wookies,it's been there since SW.The rebels are the little guys ,the poorly done ewoks aren't needed.Alot of the thematic weight of the ewoks isn't there because how poorly done it is.That's why years later it's still a sore spot for many.


.David and Goliath where both humans so they have the same movement,both where armed with modern weapons of there era.A sling was a very powerful and deadly weapon.The sling was a prominent weapon of war for a couple of thousand years.David had quickness and long range while Goliath had close combat but was weighed down by his armor and size.It's the same level just different load outs.

War of the Worlds isn't the same type of thing.Nobody's cheering on the virus,or feeling emotions of a Noble sacrifice.That's a twist ending to me,everybody knows how powerful nature or viruses are.I don't remember the movie or book all that well but I don't think there was an over confident in there technology scene with the aliens.


No,the Snow speeder's speed and maneuverability is what brought the walker down,a guy running around with a giant harpoon gun wouldn't have worked.They didn't even beat the walkers,they destroyed 1,the empire pushed threw and blew the shield generator.

 

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Artoo-Dion  60 posts
Registered: Jun '09
6241_R2-D2
Date Posted: 6/11 9:50pm Subject: Wookiees In ROTJ Could Have Worked
Dark--Helmet posted:
.David and Goliath where both humans so they have the same movement,both where armed with modern weapons of there era.A sling was a very powerful and deadly weapon.The sling was a prominent weapon of war for a couple of thousand years.David had quickness and long range while Goliath had close combat but was weighed down by his armor and size.It's the same level just different load outs.


There's a reason that "David and Goliath" has entered our cultural lexicon to mean "a seemingly unequalled matched battle". This is the family business competing with the multinational conglomerate, or the lone individual calling-out the unethical practices of a large organisation. "David and Goliath" is synonymous with a smaller entity with little hope taking on a much greater opponent.

Yes, in hindsight, David had the advantage, but this is not the expectation. This point is emphasised when Saul offers David armour, which David refuses. He beat Goliath not because their stats were balanced RPG-style but because David's wit outmatched Goliath's scale.

Dark--Helmet posted:
War of the Worlds isn't the same type of thing.Nobody's cheering on the virus,or feeling emotions of a Noble sacrifice.That's a twist ending to me,everybody knows how powerful nature or viruses are.I don't remember the movie or book all that well but I don't think there was an over confident in there technology scene with the aliens.


The Martians were arrogant insofar as they were unprepared for something as simple as a virus. Their technology only provided an illusion of security.

Anyway, the point is simply that their defeat subverts ordinary expectations, as does David and Goliath, as does the Ewoks vs. the Empire. Why do you think people get so wound up about the Ewoks defeating the Empire? Because it's "unrealistic" -- because they can't get their heads around how primitive teddy bears using low-tech solutions could defeat the mighty Empire. But if it were, in fact, "realistic", all irony would be lost in the process.

With Wookiees, seriously, who doubts a society full of them couldn't physically overwhelm a group of Stormtroopers? There's no dramatic tension because the battle is over before it's begun.

 

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Sven_Starcrown  1684 posts
Registered: Mar '09
48649_Ganner Rhysode (613092)
Date Posted: 6/11 11:00pm Subject: Wookiees In ROTJ Could Have Worked
Anything is better than Ewoks.

 

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DarthIktomi  1380 posts
Registered: May '09
19073_Luke and Mara Family
Date Posted: 6/12 8:19am Subject: Wookiees In ROTJ Could Have Worked
Sven_Starcrown posted:
Anything is better than Ewoks.


Gungans?

 

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Sven_Starcrown  1684 posts
Registered: Mar '09
48649_Ganner Rhysode (613092)
Date Posted: 6/12 8:27am Subject: Wookiees In ROTJ Could Have Worked
I would have loved that.

 

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DuracellEnergizer  363 posts
Registered: Apr '09
14798_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 6/12 12:37pm Subject: Wookiees In ROTJ Could Have Worked
Artoo-Dion posted:
With Wookiees, seriously, who doubts a society full of them couldn't physically overwhelm a group of Stormtroopers? There's no dramatic tension because the battle is over before it's begun.


Wookiees have superhuman strength, but stormtroopers have advanced energy weapons. Done right the whole "David vs. Goliath" theme could have worked just as well for the Wookiees as it did with the Ewoks.

 

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Sven_Starcrown  1684 posts
Registered: Mar '09
48649_Ganner Rhysode (613092)
Date Posted: 6/12 12:39pm Subject: Wookiees In ROTJ Could Have Worked
It was Teddy Bear VS Goliath.

 

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