Jedi Council Forums - Internal Conflict in Palpatine?

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Author	Topic: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
Boba-Phat Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 6/15 2:42pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
	In ROTJ, I sensed in emperor palps an internal conflict. I felt there was still good left in him and, with the help of maybe Luke, he could be turned from the dark side. Evidence: 1) he had a warm laugh - at the end of the scene showing the emperor's arrival, his laughter resonated in the hangar of the death star. Also, if memory serves me correct, I recall Luke telling a joke to Palpy about a rebel fleet, and he got a kick out of what his apprentice-to-be said. Palps also started cracking up when Luke tried to slice his face off with a lightsaber - but, as we know, Vader stopped his son from committing the crime. 2) I just remember the scene where Palps says to Luke, "there is no escape, my young apprentice"...the emperor had such a sad face, such a look of pity on him. His good side was coming through in that scene. Thoughts???
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timmoishere Registered: Jun '07	Date Posted: 6/15 2:57pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
	Palpatine was evil through and through. No hint of the light side in him. -----signature----- Will do moose stuff for money. Everything tastes better wrapped in bacon, especially bacon 11/20/2008: The day I married the most wonderful woman in the world.
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jedimasterbac Title: CT and Fan Design Manager Registered: Jun '04	Date Posted: 6/15 3:33pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
	Boba-Phat posted: 1) he had a warm laugh - at the end of the scene showing the emperor's arrival, his laughter resonated in the hangar of the death star. That wasn't a warm laugh. That was ego-maniacal. Boba-Phat posted: Also, if memory serves me correct, I recall Luke telling a joke to Palpy about a rebel fleet, and he got a kick out of what his apprentice-to-be said. What joke was that? Not quite sure what you're referring to. Boba-Phat posted: Palps also started cracking up when Luke tried to slice his face off with a lightsaber - but, as we know, Vader stopped his son from committing the crime. He was cracking up because the duel to the death, which was what Palpatine wanted, had finally started. Boba-Phat posted: 2) I just remember the scene where Palps says to Luke, "there is no escape, my young apprentice"...the emperor had such a sad face, such a look of pity on him. His good side was coming through in that scene. There was no sadness nor pity in his voice. He was just speaking slowly for emphasis, and probably to mock Luke. -----signature----- Star Wars: Episode I - The Chosen One http://swfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Episode_I_-_The_Chosen_One Production blog: http://alternativesaga.wordpress.com/
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JEDIGUNSHIP Title: C&G Game Host Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 6/15 3:34pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
	Palpatine had no good in him whatsoever. -----signature----- Blue and yellow make a green lightsaber. How do you get red out of blue? Council Member in the New Jedi Trials/ Commander-in-Chief of the Rebel Alliance Addicted to Rock Band 2 and Proud of It! SWC Secret Rebel '09 Band Geek For Life!
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Hernalt Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 6/15 4:47pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine? - Date Edited: 6/15 5:07pm (4 edits total) Edited By: Hernalt
	Your faith in human nature serves you well, but it could lead you to misinterpret the archtype of an absolute. The Absolute must exist as an external reference frame against which the motion of the character under investigation can be measured. Without the frame, all is relative, and ordinary humans flock to Homer and his descendants (during times of trouble, as Binx would say) because he can give a fleeting sense of location in the moral order, a place to stand ground, a principled hero's corpse to defend. In Christianity the absolute frame is between God and Satan. In Lucas' Buddhist-incorporation, there is no valuable or useful absolute 'good', as far as I have ever heard in the GFFA, but there certainly is an absolute evil. It is incorrect to say that Lucas' GFFA is 'all relative', as Einstein might object to an extra-universal Archimedes fulcrum. Google "etymology evil" and check out its origins. It did not begin life with spiritual or religious freight; it started as 'uppity' or 'consciously out of context'. In Lucas' Eastern-informed GFFA, the ultimate in 'out of context' is the ultimate in evil. Context is best exampled by Obi-Wan's words to the Gungans that they formed a symbian circle, Qui-Gon and Yoda's admissions to mortality, Shmi's words that Anakin could not (should not try) to stop the suns from setting, and in Padme's (deleted) words that adaptation is a demand from nature, and failure to adapt is Not grounds for complaint or acting out. I tend to think of Palpatine's 'wider view' as being what the singularity sees from the center of the event horizon - it sees everything, both sides of the event horizon, because it places itself at the center of all local things. The rub therein is that the space-time there does not operate with finite mathematics - for all intents and purposes, the singularity is 'out of context' to the space-time locally surrounding the event horizon. Same with Chancellor Palpatine's boast of having access to unlimited power - If he is to be taken at his word, as if he had cracked the Enigma machine on how to tap into essentially limitless ground state / zero point energy, then the axiom could be profitably applied, 'power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely'. Anakin's retention of good, and retrieval from the brink, is cast in, I would content, a kind of miracle. He was gravitationally attracted to the singularity of contextless power in ROTS. His internal motivations began to detach from logic as he was pulled across the event horizon separating the (otherwise essentially Newtonian infinity-balanced) light side from the dark side/black hole. This can be retconned to the narrative haste with which Lucas marches his trust with Windu to killing younglings, but whatever. Yoda has said that 'once you give in' the dark side will forever dominate your destiny, a fairly strong argument of finality. So Anakin exists in a regime that still retains context - he has not _yet_ reached the absolute evil of contextlessness because, to believe Luke, there is _still_ good (contextfullness) in him. But Palpatine has been contextless at least since his unleashing 'unlimited power' upon Mace. Palpatine is the Archimedes fulcrum or external reference frame in the story. One can then consider the Chosen One to be the guy who uses extreme Hawking radiation to evaporate the contextless singularity in a puff of blue smoke until all is back to Newton's initial speculation that the universe is precariously balanced at its infinite largeness, even if local systems are kept in line by gravitational fear of local solar masses (it's a shame I could not pun Death Star; I tried).
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DarthIktomi Registered: May '09	Date Posted: 6/15 6:15pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
	Please don't tell me another Mando fanboy took Revelation seriously.
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Gary_Buchenara Registered: Apr '09	Date Posted: 6/15 6:21pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
	Palpatine's wallet would have "Bad M***********" written on it and that would pretty much sum him up.
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Boba-Phat Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 6/15 6:33pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
	jedimasterbac posted: That wasn't a warm laugh. That was ego-maniacal. I disagree. Palpatine had just spent a fair amount of time in the shuttle which also carried his strange-looking companions, who are said to be close to Palpatine. The comradery in the shuttle could have had a sooting effect on Palpatine. jedimasterbac posted: What joke was that? Not quite sure what you're referring to. "Soon I'll be dead, and you with me". After Luke says this, Palpatine laughs once again. Clearly he has a good sense of humor, a good trait manifesting itself. jedimasterbac posted: He was cracking up because the duel to the death, which was what Palpatine wanted, had finally started. At this point in the movie, Palpatine's good side has started to come through, such as in the scene I pointed out in which he says to Luke, "there is no escape, my young apprentice". He is happy because Vader prevented Luke from killing him and thus preventing his fall to the dark side. It is only after watching the intense fighting between Luke and Vader that his anger and hatred again begins to boil to the surface. So while Luke was able to save Vader, it was the intense duel he was a part of which ultimately sealed Palpatine's fate and prevented him from finally renouncing the dark side.
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jedimasterbac Title: CT and Fan Design Manager Registered: Jun '04	Date Posted: 6/15 7:26pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
	George Lucas has stated that Palpatine is the personification of evil. That is who he was created to be, that is who he was intended to be, and that is what was ultimately portrayed. What you're saying now is some sort of extreme interpretation. Does that make it wrong? Not necessarily, but it's not what the creator of the character, or the portrayer of the character for that matter, intended or have stated. -----signature----- Star Wars: Episode I - The Chosen One http://swfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Episode_I_-_The_Chosen_One Production blog: http://alternativesaga.wordpress.com/
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DarthIktomi Registered: May '09	Date Posted: 6/15 7:42pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine? - Date Edited: 6/15 7:42pm (1 edits total) Edited By: DarthIktomi
	Gary_Buchenara posted: Palpatine's wallet would have "Bad M**********" written on it and that would pretty much sum him up. Sounds more like Mace Windu. At least ever since I saw him as Shaft*. I still prefer Richard Roundtree, though. EDIT: Removing accidental double entendre.
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Shadowman82 Registered: Jun '09	Date Posted: 6/15 9:55pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
	Palpatine was laughing when Luke said "Soon you'll be dead and I along with you " because Palpatine didn't believe that the pathethic Rebels ( in his view anyway) where any kind of a threat . I agree with the others Palpatine has no good in him .
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DarthIktomi Registered: May '09	Date Posted: 6/16 10:44am Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
	Actually, what he said is "Soon I'll be dead, and you with me."
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jawbox Registered: Nov '08	Date Posted: 6/16 12:52pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
	No, I think the good in him died a long time ago.
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darth-sinister Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 6/16 1:58pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
	Palpatine was raised to be a Sith. Any good in him was driven out by Plagueis long ago. All that is left is the darkness within his soul. He laughs because he's insane with power and arrogant as all get out. Evil can laugh because it is egotistical and believes in it's own superiority. Palpatine laughed at Yoda in ROTS, because he had already won the war and all Yoda was doing was spinning his wheels. He laughs in ROTJ because he will have turned Luke and enjoys watching a Jedi Padawan fall to the dark side, despite protesting that he will not. He only stops laughing when Luke passes his Jedi Trial, which just ticks him off to no end. You can see the fury in his face when Luke throws down his saber and declares himself a Jedi. -----signature----- Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge." Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side. Something, something, something complete."
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goraq Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 6/16 2:07pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
	He is like Sion. Nonredamable. -----signature----- ,,Power is tearing human minds apart and putting them back together in new shapes of your own choosing. ,,
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JediMasterAni18 Registered: Apr '09	Date Posted: 6/16 2:20pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine? - Date Edited: 6/16 2:21pm (1 edits total) Edited By: JediMasterAni18
	He had no redeeming characteristics in him at all. He was evil through and through. His laughing with Luke was evil laughter not a warm laughter ever. He never imagined anyone would kill him or try to kill him. Until Vader turned on him. Evil through and through. -----signature----- Master Yoda: Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained... gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.
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