Author Topic: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
DarthDragon164  731 posts
Registered: Jun '08
48424_Ulic Qel-Droma (512093)
Date Posted: 6/16 5:51pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
[quote=Boba-Phat]2) I just remember the scene where Palps says to Luke, "there is no escape, my young apprentice"...the emperor had such a sad face, such a look of pity on him. His good side was coming through in that scene.[quote]
If your refering to the scene that I think you are, his expression there was sarcastic.

 

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Shadowman82 
Registered: Jun '09
Date Posted: 6/16 7:10pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
JediMasterAni18 posted:
He had no redeeming characteristics in him at all. He was evil through and through. His laughing with Luke was evil laughter not a warm laughter ever. He never imagined anyone would kill him or try to kill him. Until Vader turned on him. Evil through and through.


Overall I would agree but it's hard to say if he actually has genuine affection for Anakin/Darth Vader or if it's just an act to gain his trust . Even in the Original Trilogy he never seems to be really cruel or abrasive towards Vader .

 

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JediMasterAni18 
Registered: Apr '09
24215_Anakin
Date Posted: 6/16 7:21pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
Shadowman82 posted:

Overall I would agree but it's hard to say if he actually has genuine affection for Anakin/Darth Vader or if it's just an act to gain his trust . Even in the Original Trilogy he never seems to be really cruel or abrasive towards Vader .


I don't think he had any affection toward Anakin/Vader. I think it was all a rouse in the beginning to get Anakin to the dark side. Then when Vader was with him, he still had no affection toward him. But for some reason, Vader was loyal to the Emperor. He may never have been cruel or abrasive but he lied to him and I don't think he had one drop of affection toward him. Palpy treated him more like a possession to me.

 

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goraq  2370 posts
Registered: May '08
48510_Jerec (524091)
Date Posted: 6/17 2:56am Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
I think he enjoyed Vaders suffering.

 

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Serafine_Tinaste  688 posts
Registered: May '09
51045_WH18: A Christmas Story
Date Posted: 6/17 9:51am Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
Normally I would say, "only Sith deal in absolutes", but I can't stand by that this time. Palpatine was undoubtedly 100% evil.

 

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eht13  672 posts
Registered: Sep '07
Date Posted: 6/17 12:24pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
DarthDragon164 posted:
[quote=Boba-Phat]2) I just remember the scene where Palps says to Luke, "there is no escape, my young apprentice"...the emperor had such a sad face, such a look of pity on him. His good side was coming through in that scene.[quote]
If your refering to the scene that I think you are, his expression there was sarcastic.
Yes... not only was he evil and irredeemable, he was condescending and sarcastic.

 

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Dark_Lord_THX_1138 
Registered: Jun '09
Date Posted: 6/17 12:38pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
Palpatine could never be turned from the Dark Side Of The Force. There was no good in him at all, everything was for his own personal gain, and he was laughing because he wanted to see a conflict between Father and Son, for Luke to let go and give in to anger and aggression, and he would soon become his new apprentice until someone more powerful showed up.

 

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TaradosGon  1043 posts
Registered: Feb '03
7715_Poggle
Date Posted: 6/17 4:30pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine? - Date Edited: 6/17 4:39pm (3 edits total) Edited By: TaradosGon
I would say that he has some capacity for good as Lucas points out in the ROTS commentary. He says that Palpatine convinced himself that he could end the corruption in the senate (which would be a good thing); Lucas goes on to say that while this is true, the price the Galaxy has to pay is far too great and isn't worth it.

So while Palpatine is evil and is irredeemable he at least, underneath it sees himself as having good intentions. The only problem is that he's willing to commit acts of extreme evil that completely overshadow the good end that he's trying to achieve. He deludes himself into thinking the evil he does is rationalized and convinces himself that he's ultimately good.

EDIT: You should see the posts on the The Old Republic forums that try to make arguments that the Sith are good (or at the very least just as justified in their actions as the Jedi). It's really uncomforting.

McDiarmid has said:

Ian McDiarmid posted:

""Everything he does is an act of pure hypocrisy, and that's interesting to play. I suppose it's rather like playing Iago. All the characters in the play—including Othello until the end—think that 'Honest Iago' is a decent guy doing his job, and he's quite liked. But at the same time there's a tremendous evil subconscious in operation. There's a moment in one scene of the new film where tears almost appear in his eye. These are crocodile tears, but for all those in the movie, and perhaps watching the movie itself, they'll see he is apparently moved—and of course, he is. He can just do it. He can, as it were, turn it on. And I suppose for him, it's also a bit of a turn-on; the pure exercise of power is what he's all about. That's the only thing he's interested in and the only thing that can satisfy him, which makes him completely fascinating to play, because it is an evil soul. He is more evil than the devil. At least Satan fell; he has a history, and it's one of revenge."


Which somewhat suggests that the "characters" of Palpatine and Sidious are somewhat schizophrenic alter-egos. That Palpatine can, and has, fed his compassionate emotions when it suits his purposes under the personality of Palpatine. But he can alternatively feed his hatred as the Sidious persona. If he was angry all the time and simply putting on a happy face, I'd imagine the Jedi would sense it. But if he can sincerely just shut his anger off temporarily, then he can keep up the ruse.

 

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eht13  672 posts
Registered: Sep '07
Date Posted: 6/17 6:39pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
TaradosGon posted:
So while Palpatine is evil and is irredeemable he at least, underneath it sees himself as having good intentions. The only problem is that he's willing to commit acts of extreme evil that completely overshadow the good end that he's trying to achieve. He deludes himself into thinking the evil he does is rationalized and convinces himself that he's ultimately good.
Most evil people probably see themselves as good or at least justified in their actions... or they have no sense of morality at all and simply don't care. I think Palpatine falls somewhere in that range.

TaradosGon posted:
McDiarmid has said:

Ian McDiarmid posted:

""Everything he does is an act of pure hypocrisy, and that's interesting to play. I suppose it's rather like playing Iago. All the characters in the play—including Othello until the end—think that 'Honest Iago' is a decent guy doing his job, and he's quite liked. But at the same time there's a tremendous evil subconscious in operation. There's a moment in one scene of the new film where tears almost appear in his eye. These are crocodile tears, but for all those in the movie, and perhaps watching the movie itself, they'll see he is apparently moved—and of course, he is. He can just do it. He can, as it were, turn it on. And I suppose for him, it's also a bit of a turn-on; the pure exercise of power is what he's all about. That's the only thing he's interested in and the only thing that can satisfy him, which makes him completely fascinating to play, because it is an evil soul. He is more evil than the devil. At least Satan fell; he has a history, and it's one of revenge."


Which somewhat suggests that the "characters" of Palpatine and Sidious are somewhat schizophrenic alter-egos. That Palpatine can, and has, fed his compassionate emotions when it suits his purposes under the personality of Palpatine. But he can alternatively feed his hatred as the Sidious persona. If he was angry all the time and simply putting on a happy face, I'd imagine the Jedi would sense it. But if he can sincerely just shut his anger off temporarily, then he can keep up the ruse.
Interesting McDiarmid quote. But I interpret this a little differently I think... I see Palpatine and Sidious as two personas, but not really as schizophrenic alter-egos. They are truly the same person, who is always aware of both and "plays" the persona that fits the situation the best. Palpatine is no less angry than Sidious, he is simply the political persona as opposed to the Sith one... but again, same guy, keenly aware and in control of both.

Also, I think it is a sign of how strong in the dark side of the Force he is that he can be using the Force, and yet at the same time "hide" himself in the Force and use the dark side to cloud the Jedi's ability to even realize who he really is. They had some uneasy feelings about the dark side surrounding the Chancellor somehow, but nothing specific enough to know that he was actually a Sith lord or what was really going on until it was too late.

 

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Arawn_Fenn  10400 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 6/17 6:55pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
eht13 posted:
Also, I think it is a sign of how strong in the dark side of the Force he is that he can be using the Force, and yet at the same time "hide" himself in the Force and use the dark side to cloud the Jedi's ability to even realize who he really is.


Or he's simply smart enough not to use the Force when right in front of the Jedi.

 

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eht13  672 posts
Registered: Sep '07
Date Posted: 6/17 8:04pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
Possibly, at least when he is literally right in front of them. But either way, they would usually be better at "figuring someone out", even if that person is not actively using the Force all the time. And the Jedi themselves state that the dark side seems to be clouding everything and hindering their ability to see things clearly via the Force. This may just be the inherent result of the dark side growing stronger, but I took this to possibly also mean that Palpatine may be making active attempts via the dark side to do this, while at the same time "hiding" his true self in the Force.

 

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Arawn_Fenn  10400 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 6/17 8:18pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine? - Date Edited: 6/17 8:21pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
eht13 posted:
But either way, they would usually be better at "figuring someone out", even if that person is not actively using the Force all the time.


Yoda gives him a suspicious look, but without omniscience there's nothing to label him a Force user as opposed to a run-of-the-mill power-hungry politician.

eht13 posted:
And the Jedi themselves state that the dark side seems to be clouding everything and hindering their ability to see things clearly via the Force.


It seems notable that in the two AOTC instances where the Jedi discuss the dark side clouding their vision ( three if you count the script ), the specific context is the precognition of future events. However, I grant that when the topic comes up in the Obi-Wan/Dooku conversation it seems to be about the perception of the present.

 

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TaradosGon  1043 posts
Registered: Feb '03
7715_Poggle
Date Posted: 6/17 8:21pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
Well Mace was aware that the dark side surrounded Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith, but even then he was surprised to hear that Palpatine was a Sith Lord. The Jedi probably didn't suspect Palpatine to be a Sith because they probably never would have thought a Sith would be so bold to hide right in front of them for over a decade.

 

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Arawn_Fenn  10400 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 6/17 8:25pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine? - Date Edited: 6/17 8:26pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
TaradosGon posted:
Well Mace was aware that the dark side surrounded Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith, but even then he was surprised to hear that Palpatine was a Sith Lord.


It reminds me of the scene in Patterns of Force when Jax perceived dark Force threads, surrounding Pol Haus, which were the residual effect of Vader.

 

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Gary_Buchenara  393 posts
Registered: Apr '09
8068_R5-D4
Date Posted: 6/17 9:43pm Subject: Internal Conflict in Palpatine?
I suppose just as a being can have a strong sensitivity to the Force and not be a Jedi, one could also have a strong sense of the dark side without being a Sith.

 

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