Shadowman82 posted:I think Palpatine knew the Jedi would come after him when he wouldn't give up power after the war is over regardless of what Dooku told them . Remember unlike Sidious Dooku may be a darkside user but he still seems to have some respect for some members of the council like Mace Windu .
TaradosGon posted:Lucas maintains that Vader wanted to replace Palpatine, and that held true in ESB, but in ROTJ all of his ambition seems to be dead.
darth-sinister posted:TaradosGon posted:Lucas maintains that Vader wanted to replace Palpatine, and that held true in ESB, but in ROTJ all of his ambition seems to be dead. That's because he is in conflict. Part of him wants to break away and join Luke. The other knows that his time is coming and he is losing the opportunity to convert Luke to his side, before Palpatine does it first. That's why when they fight, Vader is trying to get Luke on his side at the outset. But he's still holding back. He later chooses to use Leia and it is unexpected the rage that he uses. It is too much for him. He also knows that if he cannot turn Luke, then he will have to kill him and that is something that he is finding very hard to do.
TaradosGon posted:darth-sinister posted:TaradosGon posted:Lucas maintains that Vader wanted to replace Palpatine, and that held true in ESB, but in ROTJ all of his ambition seems to be dead. That's because he is in conflict. Part of him wants to break away and join Luke. The other knows that his time is coming and he is losing the opportunity to convert Luke to his side, before Palpatine does it first. That's why when they fight, Vader is trying to get Luke on his side at the outset. But he's still holding back. He later chooses to use Leia and it is unexpected the rage that he uses. It is too much for him. He also knows that if he cannot turn Luke, then he will have to kill him and that is something that he is finding very hard to do. Conflict or not. Vader refused to go with Luke.
TardosGon posted:And in ESB, when away from the Emperor's ears, Vader was bold enough to plot against Palpatine. But in ROTJ, while away from the Emperor's ears, he tells Luke that the Emperor - and not Vader - will be his new master, and that it is too late for him, etc. He made it sound as though he expected Luke to kill him, and that he was OK with it. As though instead of using Luke to take the Emperor's place, Vader accepted that he had gone as far as he could and wanted Luke to replace him so that with the Emperor's help Luke could have the power he could never achieve. I mean, Palpatine already provoked Luke to kill in anger, the epitome of the dark side, there was no reason for Vader to step in and save Palpatine, unless he wanted Palpatine to live. Add that to when Vader tells Luke that the Emperor will be his new master, and it just seems like he's giving up on life so that Luke could "benefit."
goraq posted:Vader was an idiot for not seeing Galens potential.
Shadowman82 posted:One thing is for sure though , even though Palpatine might have suspected that Vader would want to betray him at some point it seems he didn't expect Vader to lay a hand on him when he did because he's not paying any attention to Vader what so ever in that scene where Vader picks him .
darth-sinister posted:goraq posted:Vader was an idiot for not seeing Galens potential. But Galen was never as powerful as Vader could've been, nor as Luke would be. Even being diminished as he is, Vader was still a good match for Galen.
goraq posted:darth-sinister posted:goraq posted:Vader was an idiot for not seeing Galens potential. But Galen was never as powerful as Vader could've been, nor as Luke would be. Even being diminished as he is, Vader was still a good match for Galen. Luke was beaten on Bespin wasnt he? Galen nearly killed Palps.
goraq posted:Luke was beaten on Bespin wasnt he?
goraq posted:Galen nearly killed Palps.
goraq posted:Depends what level of cannon you accept.
darth-sinister posted:And George Lucas, the creator, says that the Skywalkers are the strongest of the Jedi and the Sith.
darth-sinister posted:Vader stepped in because Luke was not ready to turn yet. It would be just like when he killed Dooku. Luke would be close, but he could still break away and refuse to give in. That's why he blocked the fatal blow. He was trying to get Luke to turn by making him focus on him. He knew that Luke cared for his friends, so he was trying to find the key to getting him to turn. He wasn't ready to give up his life just yet.