Jedi Council Forums - Why was Vader so loyal???

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Author	Topic: Why was Vader so loyal???
Sideshowbobz Registered: Sep '06	Date Posted: 9/29 6:38pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal??? - Date Edited: 9/29 6:39pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Sideshowbobz
	Yes, I love the argument that, even though Palpatine destroyed planets and enslaved the Republic....the silver lining to his actions is that he didn't quite lie about it. Sounds like a lawyer's interpretation.....I can just see this as a new episode on Robot Chicken...."Palpatine's Legal Defense" -----signature----- All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't get this in the first film. - George Lucas: Annotated Screenplays
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Lumiyas_Head Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 9/29 7:39pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal???
	Sideshowbobz posted: I'm curious....if Padme, or anyone else, did ask "the right question"......do you think Palps would have told the truth? I don't ever think that situation would have arisen because there was never a reason to suspect Palpatine. The Jedi even admitted that Palpatine wasn't a suspect to be Darth Sidious because he already controlled the galaxy, an oversight they later payed for dearly. Sideshowbobz posted: Here's another question.....if your significant other was seeing someone on the side for years, and you only recently found out by some other means, would you be splitting hairs about whether or not he/she actually "lied" to you? No. I don't think I would be splitting hairs. But that's irrelevant to the question at hand, whether or not Palpatine is a liar. Sideshowbobz posted: The fact of the matter is, Palpatine played on everyone's trust....and when he didn't have their trust, he created a false scenario to coerce them into doing things his way. ALmost everything he said had a double-meaning - what the other folks believed, and what he really intended. Yes, he did. That's why we've never seen him blatantly lie on screen. He never had to.
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Sideshowbobz Registered: Sep '06	Date Posted: 9/29 8:00pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal??? - Date Edited: 9/29 8:02pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Sideshowbobz
	posted: I don't ever think that situation would have arisen because there was never a reason to suspect Palpatine. Why are you avoiding the question? It's a simple yes or no. posted: No. I don't think I would be splitting hairs. But that's irrelevant to the question at hand, whether or not Palpatine is a liar Ah, so the significant other would be a liar, but Palpatine wouldn't? Interesting dichotomy... And I don't think the Jedi would be splitting hairs, either, so yeah, it's relevant. posted: Yes, he did. That's why we've never seen him blatantly lie on screen. He never had to. And again, I ask.....would he if need be? Do you think that Palpatine is incapable of telling a lie? Does his Sithhood prevent him from doing so? If he is deliberately setting up the situation so he can get what he wants without requiring a lie, then how truthful is he, really? The silence is deafening. -----signature----- All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't get this in the first film. - George Lucas: Annotated Screenplays
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Lumiyas_Head Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 9/29 8:39pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal???
	Actually, I don't think he would even address the question. So, no. I don't think he would lie if someone approached him on being a Sith. And I don't think the Jedi would be splitting hairs either because they were all dead. But no, I don't think Palpatine is incapable of telling a lie. It's just, on screen, we don't have any evidence he did. Well, apparently if he doesn't lie then that doesn't make him a liar now does it? The silence just got a little louder.
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Sideshowbobz Registered: Sep '06	Date Posted: 9/29 8:51pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal??? - Date Edited: 9/29 8:51pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Sideshowbobz
	I've not avoided a single one of your questions. You go right on ahead and hide behind your definition, for all the good it does you and the Republic. Palpatine is completely and deliberately dishonest in all his dealings with everyone. He wants them to believe that what they want to happen will happen, while he knows full well - and has in fact made careful plans to insure - that the opposite will happen. He is untrustworthy at best, and the only reason he doesn't tell an outright lie is because he derives sick pleasure in fooling everyone into doing what he wants with half-truths. It's a game to him, much like this apparently is with you. But hey, at least he's only 99% dishonest, right? Quite a feat to take over the galaxy without a lie, even if he's gone out of his way to turn the lies into truths. A real stand-up guy there. Meanwhile, you're still missing the point of his character and his actions. And I'll continue to call him a liar, because this is a stupid hair to split. -----signature----- All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't get this in the first film. - George Lucas: Annotated Screenplays
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Lumiyas_Head Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 9/29 8:57pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal???
	I'm sorry that I stand by the definition of a lie? And I'm really not hiding behind anything except what the definition of a lie is. I never said Palpatine wasn't evil. Yes, he did awful and despicable acts during his rise to power. Is it Palpatine's fault that the populace blindly followed his decrees? Dooku blidnly thought Palpatine would save him, not sacrifice him. It's not Palpatine's fault he was...mistaken.
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Sideshowbobz Registered: Sep '06	Date Posted: 9/29 9:02pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal??? - Date Edited: 9/29 9:03pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Sideshowbobz
	Right, and the Republic and Jedi got what was coming to them as well - despite the fact that these events came about as a direct result of Palpatine's machinations. Whatever....I hope you're so accepting of such dishonesty when someone sells you a bad car, or takes money from you, or cheats on you. -----signature----- All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't get this in the first film. - George Lucas: Annotated Screenplays
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Lumiyas_Head Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 9/29 9:10pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal???
	I'm not defending Palpatine or his actions in bringing about the revenge of the Sith. I'm just saying he didn't lie. Oh, and don't worry about me. I'll be just fine.
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Sideshowbobz Registered: Sep '06	Date Posted: 9/29 9:40pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal???
	Trust me, I won't lose any sleep over you. In fact, I'm heading to bed right now. -----signature----- All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't get this in the first film. - George Lucas: Annotated Screenplays
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Jabba_The_Hutt_123 Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 9/30 4:00am Subject: Why was Vader so loyal???
	Didn't Palpatine tell Dooku that he would intervene to save his life? If so that is an outright lie. Didn't Palpatine tell Anakin that he could save Padme from death, then later say he didn't actually know how to but together they could do it? Didn't he promise Gunray peace? You can argue as he's dead he's at peace but even so. Though I do agree, he is very good at manipulating rather than outright, like the Jedi planning to take over, he just failed to mention they were taking over because a sith lord was in charge and would become a dictator.
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Sideshowbobz Registered: Sep '06	Date Posted: 9/30 5:46am Subject: Why was Vader so loyal???
	Well, as they say, the devil's in the details... -----signature----- All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't get this in the first film. - George Lucas: Annotated Screenplays
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 9/30 2:53pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal??? - Date Edited: 9/30 2:59pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
	eht13 posted: We may have been told that regarding Anakin's midichlorian count It's not that we have been told that, but that it proceeds from the definition of midichlorian count as depicted in TPM. sideshowbobz posted: Do you think that Palpatine is incapable of telling a lie? Are you incapable of not straw manning? sideshowbobz posted: You go right on ahead and hide behind your definition, for all the good it does you and the Republic. Yeah, those pesky words and their meanings. I guess if we dispense with all that, anything you say is always right. What an amazing system you've discovered. -----signature----- "James T. Kirk was a great man... but that was another life."
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eht13 Registered: Sep '07	Date Posted: 9/30 7:28pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal???
	Arawn_Fenn posted: eht13 posted: We may have been told that regarding Anakin's midichlorian count It's not that we have been told that, but that it proceeds from the definition of midichlorian count as depicted in TPM. Well, I mostly meant we've been told that by the movie. But I do wonder if Qui-Gon's explanation addresses what would happen if limbs containing cells were lost, because it is a reasonable question.
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Lumiyas_Head Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 9/30 7:31pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal???
	Jabba_The_Hutt_123 posted: Didn't Palpatine tell Dooku that he would intervene to save his life? If so that is an outright lie. Didn't Palpatine tell Anakin that he could save Padme from death, then later say he didn't actually know how to but together they could do it? Didn't he promise Gunray peace? You can argue as he's dead he's at peace but even so. Though I do agree, he is very good at manipulating rather than outright, like the Jedi planning to take over, he just failed to mention they were taking over because a sith lord was in charge and would become a dictator. No, I can't find the actual text, but Palpatine says that he will intervene in the duel should Anakin gain the upper hand. He never states that he will save Dooku. The "power" Palpatine refers to could be anything. Yes, we are led to believe that it is the power of Darth Plagueis. But, its never explicitly refered to as that specific power. And as far as I'm concerned, what Gunray says is heresay. We don't know if its true or whether he was rambling out "promises" to save his own skin.
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DARTH_BELO Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 10/3 9:24pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal??? - Date Edited: 10/3 9:31pm (2 edits total) Edited By: DARTH_BELO
	KennethMorgan posted: ...it was a combination of two things. First, he wanted to stay close to Palpatine until he could overthrow him and take over. Second, he was afraid of his power and looked to him as his master, as in "obey or get hurt". The PT gives us the added dimension that, after ROTS, Vader really had nothing left but his apprenticeship. I pretty much agree with this. Although, I'm not so sure about the "afraid of his power" part-since he mentioned to Padme in ROTS that he COULD overthrow him, that he was more powerful than palpatine. As I understood it, the main reason he first went with Palpatine was to save Padme, part of an effort to stop/prevent losing people that are important to him, like his mom, and Padme. After Padme's death, the Jedi Order was basically as good as gone, as was the Republic...so perhaps there may have been a mix of feelings within Vader at that point-that there was nowhere else for someone like him to go, that he's too deep into it now, and it's too late to go back. Also that he knew that eventually he would destroy the emperor and take over. A never ending "need" for complete control. But in the meantime, he would learn ALL he could from his master. Not unlike what Sidious did with HIS master, Darth Plagueis. The book Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, gives some interesting insights into this topic. Mainly explaining that Vader's anger against Obi-Wan, and the rest of the Jedi helped fuel his need for control. And that with every Jedi he killed during the Purge, it brought him deeper and deeper into the Darkside...As was Palpatine's intention (according to that book) -----signature----- There are NO trilogies - only ONE SAGA...
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