Author Topic: Why was Vader so loyal???
eht13  668 posts
Registered: Sep '07
48126_Obi-Wan Kenobi (421092)
Date Posted: 10/11 8:08pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal???
eht13 posted:
Which leads one to wonder whether the Jedi are testing this in an incomplete or less than totally accurate way. Looking at it from a logical perspective it seems they could be...

For what I mean by "logical perspective", please see SSS's post copied earlier in this thread.

eht13 posted:
... but with the Yoda and TESB Vader examples in mind it seems they are not.


I think that addresses the rest. tongue

 

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Arawn_Fenn  10379 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 10/11 9:10pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal???
eht13 posted:
Looking at it from a logical perspective it seems they could be


The flaw in this logic is that it essentially assumes as a given what it seeks to prove.

 

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Pocu 
Registered: Sep '09
Date Posted: 10/12 12:30pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal???
Arawn_Fenn posted:
According to who? The test for Force potential as shown in the films doesn't measure the total of all midichlorians in the body. It measures cell concentration. As depicted on screen, is Vader noticeably less powerful in the Force by TESB due to not having organic arms and legs? Is Yoda less powerful in the Force by virtue of being small?


Few things:

1) I am comparing Darth Vader before loosing limbs and after that. Not Vader vs. Yoda measuring their size or volume (capacity). Just loosing limbs brought injury to his ability to sense and use the Force. I cannot estimate how much, may be 5, 10 or 15%, no idea. I don't claim the size does matter for the Force, because I remember the duel between David and Goliath in the Holy Bible. The control over the power is more important than the strength. Loosing control leads to loosing some power.

2) Yoda in ROTJ: "Sick have I become, old and weak". It seems that sickness and getting older harms the ability to use the Force even though he has still the same midichlorian count. Sick or injured - obviously the physical condition has any importance.

3) Yes, actually Vader is not that strong with the Force in TESB. He threw some things against Luke but he did it also in ATC. Nothing so special and Luke was only few months trained. Dart Vader had only learned how to choke from a distance. Do you agree that Anakin in ATC was less strong than in ROTS? If you do, than why is that? Knowledge is very important, but so it is the skill to use whatever you possess.

Furthermore, this time not from the movie: do the midichlorians have the same significance in the body? Do the midichlorians in the brain have the same "voice" intensity as these in the liver? They are equal, but... OK, see just 1), 2) and 3). This is for the other thread.

 

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Arawn_Fenn  10379 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 10/12 3:17pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal??? - Date Edited: 10/12 3:22pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
Pocu posted:
Just loosing limbs brought injury to his ability to sense and use the Force.


That assumption is self-perpetuating but not really backed up by the evidence in a significant way.

Pocu posted:
Not Vader vs. Yoda measuring their size or volume (capacity).


Yoda is relevant because any presumed significance of total midichlorian amount would apply to him as well. His example was suggested in the spirit of the general fact that in SW the beings most powerful with the Force are not as a rule the beings with the most cells.

Pocu posted:
Yoda in ROTJ: "Sick have I become, old and weak". It seems that sickness and getting older harms the ability to use the Force even though he has still the same midichlorian count. Sick or injured - obviously the physical condition has any importance.


This just proves my point that inability due to physical condition need not have anything to do with lost midichlorians.

 

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timmoishere  7861 posts
Registered: Jun '07
14706_AT-AT
Date Posted: 10/13 5:37pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal???
Here's another point that pretty much shoots down the "loss of limb = loss of midi-chlorians = loss of Force ability" theory. After Anakin lost his arm in AOTC, he didn't become weaker. In fact, during the 3 years between AOTC and ROTS, he became much, much stronger in the Force.

 

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Pocu 
Registered: Sep '09
Date Posted: 10/15 1:43pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal???
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Pocu posted:
Just loosing limbs brought injury to his ability to sense and use the Force.
That assumption is self-perpetuating but not really backed up by the evidence in a significant way.

Did I offend you somehow? You don't need to be biting. There is no significant evidence to the contrary.

Arawn_Fenn posted:
Pocu posted:
Not Vader vs. Yoda measuring their size or volume (capacity).
Yoda is relevant because any presumed significance of total midichlorian amount would apply to him as well. His example was suggested in the spirit of the general fact that in SW the beings most powerful with the Force are not as a rule the beings with the most cells.
Actually the point was "the size doesn't matter", not the quantity of the cells. We are not aware how many cells has Yoda, because he is humanized alien and not a human being. And it was not the spirit what makes him strong, it is the faith. You can only strengthen what you posses or what remains to you.

Arawn_Fenn posted:
Pocu posted:
Yoda in ROTJ: "Sick have I become, old and weak". It seems that sickness and getting older harms the ability to use the Force even though he has still the same midichlorian count. Sick or injured - obviously the physical condition has any importance.
This just proves my point that inability due to physical condition need not have anything to do with lost midichlorians.
Do I miss something? We are looking for a reason why Vader did not learn anything for 20 years serving the Emperor as super-skilled robot. Count Dooku became enough powerful to throw lightnings with his fingers only for few years but Vader did not. Why is that? Why did Vader only learn to chock people from a distance? It seems that the arms and the fingers have something to do with that. I am offering an explanation; may be it is not good enough. Is there any better?

 

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Arawn_Fenn  10379 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 10/15 2:04pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal??? - Date Edited: 10/15 2:06pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
Pocu posted:
There is no significant evidence to the contrary.


The fact that Vader's Force skill is not seen to be any weaker in the OT can be seen as significant evidence to the contrary. In other words the claim itself lacks evidence. There is also the recent post: Here's another point that pretty much shoots down the "loss of limb = loss of midi-chlorians = loss of Force ability" theory. After Anakin lost his arm in AOTC, he didn't become weaker.

 

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Pocu 
Registered: Sep '09
Date Posted: 10/15 2:05pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal???
timmoishere posted:
Here's another point that pretty much shoots down the "loss of limb = loss of midi-chlorians = loss of Force ability" theory. After Anakin lost his arm in AOTC, he didn't become weaker. In fact, during the 3 years between AOTC and ROTS, he became much, much stronger in the Force.

It is a good point. The reason was new knowledge of the Force, more training, and may be something more. I told it before - after killing all the Jedi there was no one left in the Universe just for training purposes. For some reason only the midichlorian count (amount) came in question. Your point doesn't explain why Vader did not become much stronger between ROTS and ANH.

Besides, why did not the Emperor take the arms and legs from Mustafar? He could clone Vader, graft the limbs to 1 new body and there wouldn't be any need to save Vader's body. There was no guarantee that he could save him from dying. Essentially, only one single cell with more than 20,000 midichlorians could be enough... wink

 

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Arawn_Fenn  10379 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 10/15 2:07pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal??? - Date Edited: 10/15 2:14pm (4 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
Pocu posted:
Count Dooku became enough powerful to throw lightnings with his fingers only for few years but Vader did not. Why is that?


Artificial limbs.

Pocu posted:
Your point doesn't explain why Vader did not become much stronger between ROTS and ANH.


You don't know that he didn't. ANH implies he became stronger.

Pocu posted:
We are not aware how many cells has Yoda, because he is humanized alien and not a human being.


That's why I said Yoda was cited in the spirit of the idea rather than as a direct example of the idea.

Pocu posted:
Why did Vader only learn to chock people from a distance?


confused Vader can choke from close by (ROTS) or he can use the direct hands-on approach (ROTS, ANH).

 

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Pocu 
Registered: Sep '09
Date Posted: 10/15 2:14pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal???
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Pocu posted:
Count Dooku became enough powerful to throw lightnings with his fingers only for few years but Vader did not. Why is that?

Artificial limbs.

These cannot be a problem - metal is quite good electrical conductor.
OK, I like this discussion but I need some sleep. Will be back here on Saturday.

 

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Arawn_Fenn  10379 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 10/15 2:24pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal??? - Date Edited: 10/15 2:26pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
Pocu posted:
These cannot be a problem


Wookiepedia has differing explanations depending on whether you look at the Darth Vader page or the Force Lightning page. The prosthetic limb one is the only one that is sourced, however, and it appears to be from the ROTS Visual Dictionary. The alternative (unsourced and of unknown provenance) explanation is that Force lightning, even if cast by Vader, would backfire and electrocute his life-support apparatus.

 

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timmoishere  7861 posts
Registered: Jun '07
14706_AT-AT
Date Posted: 10/15 11:30pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal???
It's not the loss of limbs that made Vader weaker than pre-dismemberment Anakin. It was the suit that encumbered him, both physically and mentally. Vader gradually learned to overcome those handicaps, but at first it was quite jarring to him to have to fight in a completely different style. See the novel Dark Lord for some Vader point of view regarding the efficiency of the suit and the restrictions it places on his movements.

 

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Nebelwerfer  367 posts
Registered: Apr '08
6887_Luke and Yoda
Date Posted: 10/23 1:39pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal???
goraq posted:
Vader was an idiot for not seeing Galens potential.



omg dont even go there, video game characters are created and made to be overly powerful for the mere sake of the game itself.

 

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izzy_the_hutt 
Registered: Oct '09
6246_Captain Piett
Date Posted: 10/24 11:44am Subject: Why was Vader so loyal???
The whole question of Palpatine being a liar to me is like asking, "Did Obi Wan lie to Luke when he told him that Darth Vader betrayed and murdered his father?"

Well, he believed that Anakin died when he ceased to be Anakin, and became Darth Vader, so FROM A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW, it was the truth.

NO. Sorry, Ben--don't buy it.

Obi Wan lied. He willfully deceived Luke in order to get the kid to commit patricide.

With Palps its the same. Palpatine's entire plan is built on deception, lying is his bread and butter. What about when he tells Anakin that the Jedi are plotting to take over the Republic? To me that seems like a pretty flat-out lie. Whatever the Jedi Council's faults, they aren't trying to take over in the way that Palps is describing. They just want to get rid of him--and presumably get a new guy in office.

 

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melkor834 
Registered: Oct '09
39848_Darth Vader
Date Posted: 10/25 10:16pm Subject: Why was Vader so loyal???
eht13 posted:
I really think that SSS's post (copied below), from the thread that I linked to a little earlier, does a good job addressing this issue.


SithStarSlayer posted:


Less bodymass, means less midichlorians to work with. The pre-existing concentration levels remain unchanged at 20,000 midis per cell. Losing limbs doesn't actually change cell counts, losing limbs means lost cells... lost bodymass = lost potential. And thus, the total number of midis was decreased due to those lost limbs.





I think this is completley flawed. Why? Because Yoda, who has far less body mass than nearly any other Jedi, is still extremley powerful. And as he says, "Size matters not."

 

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