Author Topic: What was the plan for the Death Star
TaradosGon  1042 posts
Registered: Feb '03
7715_Poggle
Date Posted: 6/17 4:54pm Subject: What was the plan for the Death Star - Date Edited: 6/17 5:37pm (1 edits total) Edited By: TaradosGon
I don't know if this has been discussed. I used the search function, but search results for "Death Star" yields more results that have nothing to do with the Death Star than relevant results.

My question is what was the plan for the Death Star? In ANH Tarking says that fear of the Death Star will keep the local systems in line. Two things:

1. How local is local? Everything within the Empire? Was a specific sector problematic? Was there to be more than one Death Star to keep different regions in line?

2. He never says fear of the Empire. Just the battle station.

Historically, personalities like Stalin and Saddam Hussein, when executing political rivals never came forward and admitted to being responsible. Usually they would blame someone else or attribute the death to some cause other than murder. I recall hearing of an incidence when Hitler believed someone was planning to betray him, so that individual was given the opportunity to commit suicide and be remembered a hero as the government would lie about the details of the death to make them look favorable. The alternative was that the individual would be arrested, tried, and executed as traitor and be disgraced. Anyway, the point is that dictators generally distance themselves from atrocities they commit.

Would the Empire take responsibility for the Death Star and make it common knowledge? Just as in the video game KOTOR the Sith's destruction of Taris was no big secret. Or would the Death Star be kept a secret with planets that were destroyed being blamed on the rebels to rally the rest of the Empire to Palpatine? I.E. would it be killing two birds with one stone? Destroying political opposition, but shifting blame to the enemy to strengthen domestic rule. Kind of like in 1984 when governments staged attacks on their own citizens to keep the population's attention distracted from domestic issues. Was the Empire going to directly terrorize the population and have a policy of "obey or die" or would rebellious systems just conveniently be "destroyed by the Rebels" bringing the systems in line by having fear of the rebels be more willing to yield to Imperial control for security.

 

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Serafine_Tinaste  681 posts
Registered: May '09
48991_Ailyn Vel (72709)
Date Posted: 6/17 9:21pm Subject: What was the plan for the Death Star
TaradosGon posted:
Anyway, the point is that dictators generally distance themselves from atrocities they commit.

I have to disagree. Saddam routinely leaked torture vids on the internet in order to scare people. That wasn't an accident.

As for the Death Star, obviously they wanted the galaxy to know what the Empire was capable of otherwise they wouldn't have destroyed Alderaan.

 

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Shadowman82 
Registered: Jun '09
Date Posted: 6/17 10:11pm Subject: What was the plan for the Death Star
Yes I agree , the death star was much like the first Atomic bombs dropped over Japan .

 

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rich-narco  97 posts
Registered: May '04
8146_Hyperspace Webcam<br>"Bicycle Man"
Date Posted: 6/18 4:58am Subject: What was the plan for the Death Star
Serafine_Tinaste posted:
TaradosGon posted:
Anyway, the point is that dictators generally distance themselves from atrocities they commit.

I have to disagree. Saddam routinely leaked torture vids on the internet in order to scare people. That wasn't an accident.



makes no sense? here was virtually no internet infratructure, ISPs or services with Iraq when Saddam was in power.....

 

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Serafine_Tinaste  681 posts
Registered: May '09
48991_Ailyn Vel (72709)
Date Posted: 6/18 6:49am Subject: What was the plan for the Death Star
rich-narco posted:
Serafine_Tinaste posted:
TaradosGon posted:
Anyway, the point is that dictators generally distance themselves from atrocities they commit.

I have to disagree. Saddam routinely leaked torture vids on the internet in order to scare people. That wasn't an accident.



makes no sense? here was virtually no internet infratructure, ISPs or services with Iraq when Saddam was in power.....

Well, someone did. They got on the internet one way or another.

 

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darth-sinister  43577 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Jun '01
24181_Palpatine Hologram
Date Posted: 6/18 2:04pm Subject: What was the plan for the Death Star - Date Edited: 6/18 2:10pm (1 edits total) Edited By: darth-sinister
Re-watch the scene where Tarkin and Vader meet with the Imperial officers.

TARKIN: "The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I've just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away."

TAGGE: "That's impossible! How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?"

TARKIN: "The regional governors now have direct control over territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station."

In other words, the Death Star would be used to keep everyone in line. It is expressly stated in ANH and alluded to in AOTC and ROTS. This is why Tarkin insists on destroying Alderaan.

TARKIN: "There. You see Lord Vader, she can be reasonable. Continue with the operation. You may fire when ready."

LEIA: "What?"

TARKIN: "You're far too trusting. Dantooine is too remote to make an effective
demonstration. But don't worry. We will deal with your Rebel friends soon enough."

This is also why a second Death Star is built after the first is destroyed. Without it, Sidious cannot hope to maintain his rule. You can say having a second DS is a bad idea on Lucas' part, but you have to look at the story point based on what is said in ANH.

 

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Hernalt  154 posts
Registered: Jun '00
Date Posted: 6/18 2:35pm Subject: What was the plan for the Death Star - Date Edited: 6/18 2:41pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Hernalt
Tarkin supplies no intervening thought, breath, or conceptual moment between reference to 'direct control' and 'fear'. Therefore they are equivalent. However, 'fear of this battle station' is a grammatical 'minor sentence' that elaborates on the first usage of the subject 'fear'. So the neat grammatical trick is that the minor sentence changes the first subject 'fear' from 'direct control of regional governors' to 'direct control of regional governors _AND_ this battle station'. Because Tarkin mentions only "this" battle station, the implication, based solely on the script and without reading into it, is that this one DS is sufficient to keep _all_ local systems in line, regardless of territory or region.

The people's or citizens' fear of this DS is linearly linked through this grammar trick to the dissolution of the Senate / direct representation. Many citizens may still hope it possesses a shred of ideal and authenticity, but even if no one truly believes in it any more, it remains at least a last defense against naked tyranny. In well-done villain revelation scenes of any genre (here I think of Edward Norton in Primal Fear), dissolution of pretense is a most harrowing moment, and the Emperor has just swept away the last pretenses of the representative character of the Old Republic.

 

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TaradosGon  1042 posts
Registered: Feb '03
7715_Poggle
Date Posted: 6/18 5:02pm Subject: What was the plan for the Death Star - Date Edited: 6/18 5:12pm (2 edits total) Edited By: TaradosGon
darth-sinister posted:
Re-watch the scene where Tarkin and Vader meet with the Imperial officers.

TARKIN: "The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I've just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away."

TAGGE: "That's impossible! How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?"

TARKIN: "The regional governors now have direct control over territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station."

In other words, the Death Star would be used to keep everyone in line. It is expressly stated in ANH and alluded to in AOTC and ROTS. This is why Tarkin insists on destroying Alderaan.

TARKIN: "There. You see Lord Vader, she can be reasonable. Continue with the operation. You may fire when ready."

LEIA: "What?"

TARKIN: "You're far too trusting. Dantooine is too remote to make an effective
demonstration. But don't worry. We will deal with your Rebel friends soon enough."

This is also why a second Death Star is built after the first is destroyed. Without it, Sidious cannot hope to maintain his rule. You can say having a second DS is a bad idea on Lucas' part, but you have to look at the story point based on what is said in ANH.


Yes, but Sidious could maintain power through fear without actually taking responsibility for the weapon. I can't remember where I read it, I think maybe an NPC in SWG put the idea forward that the Rebels were responsible for the destruction of Alderaan. And while I know SWG is non-Canon, the idea still made sense that framing the Rebellion would be a more effective tool than claiming responsibility. In ROTS, Anakin sees the power given to Palpatine in the name of security as a good thing, and questions the loyalty of Padme and the Jedi when they voice opposition to that. The Senate allowed Palpatine to establish an Empire in the name of security. Giving Palpatine's rule legitimacy.

Now that Palpatine wishes to dissolve the senate, he can't rely on the senate to give that decision legitimacy as he could rely on them to give his Empire legitimacy, as he claimed to have foiled a Jedi rebellion that sought to take control of the senate. Instead, he could rely on the people. If he starts destroying planets but shifts blame to his enemies, he can dissolve the Senate in the name of requiring more power, and the citizens of the Empire - those afraid, and most affected by this huge breach in security - could give that decision legitimacy, just as some absolute monarchs relied on the people for legitimacy as they curtailed the powers of the nobles. Palpatine could destroy his enemies, all the while framing his enemies causing the Imperial citizens to grant him more power and legitimacy. "Fear of this battle station" would still be keeping the systems in line, the Imperials just wouldn't be claiming ownership of that battle station.

Also, in regards to keeping the "local systems in line" again, I was curious as to what "local" pertains to. It doesn't seem as though Tarkin was talking about the entire Empire, and I didn't get the feeling that the Death Star was ever going to work its way into the core worlds (Alderaan being the exception, solely because they needed something to threaten Leia with). Dantooine and Yavin were relatively close (according to maps of the SW galaxy) and were in the outer rim, where I get the impression the rebels had the most influence, and where the population tended to be low. The Empire could have kept the weapon out in the Outer Rim, where it would be more elusive, and could terrorize planets in the Rebel sphere of influence, both killing rebels and causing the Imperial population in the Outer Rim to turn to Palpatine for protection.

 

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T-R-  520 posts
Registered: Aug '03
6596_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 6/19 3:05am Subject: What was the plan for the Death Star
You should read "local systems" as applying to "regional governors" and their "territories." Each governor has local systems to keep in line.

The DS will help each governor keep his local systems in line. It would be sent wherever an insurrection takes place.

 

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TaradosGon  1042 posts
Registered: Feb '03
7715_Poggle
Date Posted: 6/19 4:52am Subject: What was the plan for the Death Star
According to maps (which I can't imagine are G-canon) Yavin, Dantooine, Mon Calamari, Hoth, and Endor are all in the outer rim. Even if we completely diregard these maps, planets like Yavin, Hoth, Endor, and Dantooine are all pretty much uninhabited or sparsely populated. Even though the Death Star was destroyed by the time of ESB, I think it stands to reason that if it had it would have been sent to Hoth. Three of the above locations had rebel bases at some point or another, Endor was away from any sentient races that would stumble upon the second Death Star, and Mon Calamari, though never making an appearance in G-canon, obviously had strong ties to the Rebellion. I question whether or not the Death Star was ever intended (or needed) to move into the core worlds beyond the demonstration on Alderaan. I figure the Imperial presence on those worlds would be strong enough to handed any uprisings, while the Death Star could be kept in the Outer Rim where Rebel influence was highest and Imperial influence was lowest. The local systems (in the time that I've tried to make rational sense of it since I created this topic) seems like it could simply be the outer rim territories which were more likely to join with the Rebellion in open revolt.

 

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obi-arin-kenobi  303 posts
Registered: Jun '05
5484_Fan Force Chicago
Date Posted: 6/25 10:53am Subject: What was the plan for the Death Star
TaradosGon posted:
I don't know if this has been discussed. I used the search function, but search results for "Death Star" yields more results that have nothing to do with the Death Star than relevant results.

My question is what was the plan for the Death Star? In ANH Tarking says that fear of the Death Star will keep the local systems in line. Two things:

1. How local is local? Everything within the Empire? Was a specific sector problematic? Was there to be more than one Death Star to keep different regions in line?

2. He never says fear of the Empire. Just the battle station.

Historically, personalities like Stalin and Saddam Hussein, when executing political rivals never came forward and admitted to being responsible. Usually they would blame someone else or attribute the death to some cause other than murder. I recall hearing of an incidence when Hitler believed someone was planning to betray him, so that individual was given the opportunity to commit suicide and be remembered a hero as the government would lie about the details of the death to make them look favorable. The alternative was that the individual would be arrested, tried, and executed as traitor and be disgraced. Anyway, the point is that dictators generally distance themselves from atrocities they commit.

Would the Empire take responsibility for the Death Star and make it common knowledge? Just as in the video game KOTOR the Sith's destruction of Taris was no big secret. Or would the Death Star be kept a secret with planets that were destroyed being blamed on the rebels to rally the rest of the Empire to Palpatine? I.E. would it be killing two birds with one stone? Destroying political opposition, but shifting blame to the enemy to strengthen domestic rule. Kind of like in 1984 when governments staged attacks on their own citizens to keep the population's attention distracted from domestic issues. Was the Empire going to directly terrorize the population and have a policy of "obey or die" or would rebellious systems just conveniently be "destroyed by the Rebels" bringing the systems in line by having fear of the rebels be more willing to yield to Imperial control for security.


It would make sense that there would be some level of mass production, to the point where there would be Death Stars orbiting where need be, to keep people in line--hence the second death star. A form of Palpatine having the galaxy in checkmate.

 

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darth-sinister  43577 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Jun '01
24181_Palpatine Hologram
Date Posted: 6/25 2:29pm Subject: What was the plan for the Death Star
Within the eu, the Empire made it look like the Alliance caused Alderaan's destruction, but that was propaganda as a result of the DS being blown up afterwards. As far as Lucas was concerned, the DS was the final solution and anyone disagreeing with the Empire, would be blown up. Fear of captial punishment would keep everyone in line. The DS II was only created because the first one was destroyed. Palpatine was not planning on mass production of them. It could travel across the galaxy by hyperspace and have enough time to take them out. There would've been no need to go to Hoth, because it was only set up as a base after leaving Yavin 4. If Yavin 4 fell, Mon Mothma and the rest of the Alliance that was scattered about would've given up the fight. Palpatine would take responsibility and the first objects would've had a visit from the Empire on the subject.

 

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obi-arin-kenobi  303 posts
Registered: Jun '05
5484_Fan Force Chicago
Date Posted: 6/25 3:46pm Subject: What was the plan for the Death Star
darth-sinister posted:
Palpatine was not planning on mass production of them. It could travel across the galaxy by hyperspace and have enough time to take them out.


What proof within the films mention this? The Death Stars navigation was about orbiting planets. Imo, it makes sense that palpatine would have them scattered about the galaxy, orbiting various planets--acting as an eye to survey the galaxy.

 

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Arawn_Fenn  10321 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 6/25 4:16pm Subject: What was the plan for the Death Star
obi-arin-kenobi posted:
What proof within the films mention this?


The fact that Alderaan and Yavin are different systems.

 

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darth-sinister  43577 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Jun '01
24181_Palpatine Hologram
Date Posted: 6/27 11:10am Subject: What was the plan for the Death Star
obi-arin-kenobi posted:
darth-sinister posted:
Palpatine was not planning on mass production of them. It could travel across the galaxy by hyperspace and have enough time to take them out.


What proof within the films mention this? The Death Stars navigation was about orbiting planets. Imo, it makes sense that palpatine would have them scattered about the galaxy, orbiting various planets--acting as an eye to survey the galaxy.


Uh, the fact that the Death Star moves from Alderaan to Yavin 4. The fact that in ANH, you see the Death Star move before and around the Yavin gas giant, in order to destroy Yavin 4.

 

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Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
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Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
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jedimasterbac  6231 posts
Title: CT and Fan Design Manager
Registered: Jun '04
24180_Obi-Wan Art
Date Posted: 6/27 1:06pm Subject: What was the plan for the Death Star
The plan was part of the Tarkin Doctrine. Tarkin's belief was to "Rule through the fear of force rather than through force itself." You could blow up a few planets in order to scare the pants off of all the other planets, thereby solidifying your rule because no one would want to fight against you. The plan ultimately backfired, since the Alliance grew larger after the destruction of Alderaan.

 

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