Jedi Council Forums - ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."

Post Reply | Active Topic Notification | Previous Active Topic | Next Active Topic

Pages: 1 | 2 - ~~Previous~~ | Next | Reload

Author	Topic: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."
Aggravated71 Registered: Aug '09	Date Posted: 9/2 10:42pm Subject: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."
	Pls,if theres been a discussion already,pls link me to it.I searched and did not find what I was looking for. Thanks! In ROTJ Vader tells Luke(you peeps already know) That Obi wan once thought as he did,and that Luke does not know the power of the dark side,and Vader emphasizes he MUST obey his master.That means at some earlier point,Obi wan tried to convert him back to his old self. Yet,Why is he(Vader) so fearful of his Master? Also,In the PT,I never see this happening,to where Obi Wan tries to convince Vader to come back to the good side.Did the PT movies,say ROTS,fail the CT on explaining this part? Now I know these movies were created years apart,GL changed alot of stuff for the heck of it,but I have not read much of the EU or other novels that may have explained it better. In the CT or OT,my assumption was Vader,had no choice or face death if he decided to switch sides.Once he went down the dark path,his destiny was sealed,no matter where he was,but yet it looks as if he is telling Luke that his Master has some leash on him,where he cannot disobey. He MUST obey his master?Using the force,good or bad is a choice,a individual path,It should not matter what a Master thinks or feels,Unless there was some grip Palps had with it,over Vader. Hes telling Luke,Obi once thought as he did,meaning Obi tried to bring him back but failed at a certain time?What is it about the dark side that Vader Must Obey his Master,as if he cannot choose anymore?Its a crutch excuse to use that together. In the PT I did not see this answer to it anywhere.I did not see Obi try to bring him back in ROTS and once thought as Luke did.So the dialogue of the CT to the PT is a little off.Thats Ok,the movies scripts and story changed many times,but I feel like thats a hole in the plot left out. At least Obi wan carried off Anis/Vaders lightsaber in ROTS PT to give us a sense why he told Luke his father wanted to have this when he was born(Man did Obi wan end up eventually lie alot when GL got done changing it all)to explain how he got it. Yet in the CT,when I watch,I feel like Vader is on some type of terrible dark side force leash,where he has no choice anymore,and if he decides to disobey his master,he would face something terrible. I read his suit was destroyed by force lightning when the threw the Palps/Emp over the rails in ROTJ,causing his physical death,but lets say,if he was able to leave with Luke after Luke asked him to come with him on Endor, what actual doom was he facing at that point? The spoken dialogue suggest he was in fear of his Masters powers along with the dark side,not just from the dark side alone,and he could NOT let go of his hate..what made it,"Too late for me my son"? Would just leaving the dark side,letting go of his hate,doom him in anyways?I would think so...yet it doesnt seem complete in the story telling through the movies..hence im asking. Is that what he was so fearful of,or was he fearful of his Master's powers?What did the EU or other topics have to say or what you all thought about it? Thanks for any links or discussion.
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Darth_Davi Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 9/4 5:37am Subject: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."
	I am pretty sure that their discussion prior to engaging in combat on Mustafar would count as Obi-Wan trying to turn Anakin back. -----signature----- What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon? Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide! It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Aggravated71 Registered: Aug '09	Date Posted: 9/4 7:54pm Subject: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."
	Darth_Davi posted: I am pretty sure that their discussion prior to engaging in combat on Mustafar would count as Obi-Wan trying to turn Anakin back. I would agree to that.However,the movie did a very poor job of showing this.Oh well,no big deal but I feel like they could have had done a better job.Great saber fight though.
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
DarthJohnkenobi Registered: Aug '04	Date Posted: 9/4 10:40pm Subject: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."
	In the PT I did not see this answer to it anywhere.I did not see Obi try to bring him back in ROTS and once thought as Luke did.So the dialogue of the CT to the PT is a little off.Thats Ok,the movies scripts and story changed many times,but I feel like thats a hole in the plot left out. Obiwans line was "I once thought as you,,," Once he confronted Anakin on Mustafar he saw there was no hope of turning him back. -----signature----- Lover of Yellow lightsabers, Eater of Ewoks, Shaver of Wookies and Lover of Twi'lek women
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 9/5 8:47pm Subject: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."
	It wasn't Obi-Wan's line, it was Vader's line. -----signature----- "Just when you think the amount of fail cannot possibly increase, the Internet keeps on giving." - SalvorHardin "Let's see them argue with nature and persuade the nonexistent polar bears not to eat them." - crownarmourer
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Gary_Buchenara Registered: Apr '09	Date Posted: 9/6 8:26pm Subject: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."
	I don't think Yoda ever envisaged Anakin turning back, which is why he sent Obiwan to destroy him. Obiwan felt that there might be a chance when he confronted him on Mustafar, but by the era of the OT seems to have reconciled himself with Yoda's view.
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
xx_Anakin_xx Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 9/7 1:06am Subject: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..." - Date Edited: 9/7 1:07am (1 edits total) Edited By: xx_Anakin_xx
	Yoda was being pretty negligent if he reached that decision, considering his 'future is always in motion' point of view. I'm not certain that was what was motivating him. Rather, I think he just understood the "present" and in it, Anakin had fallen to the dark side; numerous Jedi as well as some Masters had been wiped out and the Temple ravaged; Sidious and his new, very powerful apprentice were on the move and it had to be stopped. I think that would be more along the lines of what he was thinking - understanding that if there was time he might reach a different decision. Plus he knew Obi-Wan as a Jedi would do the right thing when he confronted Anakin. Later they both had years and years to meditate and never could see the spark of good that meant Vader could be quashed - I do not know why. Padme and Luke saw it, so perhaps it was only something those close to him through the Force or intimacy could tell... I'd hate to think that neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda never even considered it, although that is a possibility. -----signature----- I say we put together a 'kill squad' and assassinate Darth Krayt. Who's with me?
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Kalphite Registered: Sep '09	Date Posted: 9/7 1:14am Subject: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."
	I would agree that Yoda thought initially that Vader was beyond redemption "The boy you trained...gone he is..." and he sent Obi1 to kill him. However, imho, Yoda had a change of heart over the years. When he told Luke he had to confront Vader to become a Jedi, to me Yoda knew that the only hope the galaxy had was Luke being able to redeem his father... Some people think Yoda meant for Luke to kill Vader...but I don't - sorry as this is off topic...
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Kalphite Registered: Sep '09	Date Posted: 9/7 1:22am Subject: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."
	Getting back on topic..."MUST obey my master" always struck a chord with me, especially the way Vader emphasizes 'must.' That made me always feel like Palpatine had direct 'control' over keeping Vader alive, almost as though Vader's suit wasn't enough, and Palpatine was keeping him going - and I always assumed that the main reason Vader died was because with Palpatine dead, Vader could not keep his body functional. But there's nothing in the PT to confirm that either way...
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Nordom Registered: Jun '04	Date Posted: 9/7 5:42am Subject: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."
	Aggravated71 posted: In ROTJ Vader tells Luke(you peeps already know) That Obi wan once thought as he did,and that Luke does not know the power of the dark side,and Vader emphasizes he MUST obey his master.That means at some earlier point,Obi wan tried to convert him back to his old self. Yet,Why is he(Vader) so fearful of his Master? I've been involved in a similar discussion in another thread. My view is that Palpatine did have some kind of hold over Vader and he could command him in some fashion. Reasons being. 1) We know that the Force can partially controll your actions. 2) We know that the Force can be used to controll the mind of others. 3) Yoda warns Luke to not underestimate the powers of the emperor or he would suffer his fathers fate. 4) What Vader said. 5) Lastly and perhaps most importantly when it come to the situation with Palpatine trying to turn Luke. Palpatine is doing all he can to make Luke boiling mad so that he will kill in hate. And from all that is said in RotJ it very much seems that IF Luke had killed in hate then he would have turned and become the emperors loyal servant. So in a way if Luke killed Vader, Palpatine would make him his slave. The alternative make little sense to me. Consider, IF Luke had killed Vader in hate and was still in charge of himself, what would he do next? Given how angry he would be, all that anger and hate would be directed towards Palpatine and he would almost certainly attack him. Then Palpatine would probably be forced to kill him. And then he would have lost BOTH Vader and Luke. This does not sound like a good plan for Palpatine. How this would work could be something like this. A jedi must not let his anger or hate take over and start to use the Dark side. If that happens then a Master of the Dark side can use that anger and hate against the jedi and break his will. And the angrier the jedi gets the quicker the Sith will beat him. This is what I thought happened to Anakin, he charged Palpatine full of anger and hate and Palpatine could just turn his anger against him and make him his servant. But does not this mean a Sith apprentice could never rebel against his master? No, because as the apprentice gets stronger and stronger in the Dark side he or she could start to resist the masters command. Once when the apprentice is powerfull enough he or she could reject them completely and then they would probabaly kill their master. The one thing Palpatine overlooked is that his hold over Vader existed only as long as Vader could not let go of his hate. Once Vader did this then did he find the strenght to break his chains and overthrow Palpatine. Regards Nordom -----signature----- "I think, therefore I am.. I think" "Morte, how do you stay afloat?" "Flatulence, you stupid polygon"
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Darth_Davi Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 9/7 6:13am Subject: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."
	I have always interpreted that line as an addiction. He MUST, because he can't help himself not to, like a chain smoker MUST have a cigarette, or an alcoholic MUST have a drink. I am not so sure about the whole mind control thing, it sure didn't do Palpy any good in the throne room when Vader was throwing him down the pit... -----signature----- What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon? Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide! It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
xx_Anakin_xx Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 9/7 2:51pm Subject: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."
	Well the idea that Vader "must" obey his master condraticts with his desire for Luke to join him and overthrow Sidious - unless Vader also felt that would somehow be in line with obeying his master (based on Sith philosophy that dictates that killing his master was what he was supposed to do - but the point was to become powerful so one is ready to stand in the shoes of a master, not to get another who is powerful and gang up on the master, so...) That leads me to believe that Vader was simply rationalizing the conflict he felt. A part of him agreed with Luke, but another part of him didn't want to jump sides, he wanted Luke to join him on his side. -----signature----- I say we put together a 'kill squad' and assassinate Darth Krayt. Who's with me?
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Aggravated71 Registered: Aug '09	Date Posted: 9/7 3:20pm Subject: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."
	Thanks everyone,I really enjoyed reading your views on this.
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Darth_Davi Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 9/8 5:40am Subject: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."
	xx_Anakin_xx posted: Well the idea that Vader "must" obey his master condraticts with his desire for Luke to join him and overthrow Sidious - unless Vader also felt that would somehow be in line with obeying his master (based on Sith philosophy that dictates that killing his master was what he was supposed to do - but the point was to become powerful so one is ready to stand in the shoes of a master, not to get another who is powerful and gang up on the master, so...) That leads me to believe that Vader was simply rationalizing the conflict he felt. A part of him agreed with Luke, but another part of him didn't want to jump sides, he wanted Luke to join him on his side. That is part of the reason I go with the addiction definition. In addiction, the addicted may genuinely want to quit, but lack the strength. Someone who wants to quit smoking will tell people they are quitting, ask for help to quit smoking, but when push comes to shove, they still smoke. Vader is kind of like that. He wants out, doesn't want to be the Emperor's lackey any more, even expresses that desire to Luke...he just lacks the strength to actually do it until Palpatine is in the process of killing Luke. -----signature----- What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon? Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide! It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
ZEM Registered: Sep '09	Date Posted: 9/8 6:22pm Subject: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."
	Darth_Davi posted: xx_Anakin_xx posted: Well the idea that Vader "must" obey his master condraticts with his desire for Luke to join him and overthrow Sidious - unless Vader also felt that would somehow be in line with obeying his master (based on Sith philosophy that dictates that killing his master was what he was supposed to do - but the point was to become powerful so one is ready to stand in the shoes of a master, not to get another who is powerful and gang up on the master, so...) That leads me to believe that Vader was simply rationalizing the conflict he felt. A part of him agreed with Luke, but another part of him didn't want to jump sides, he wanted Luke to join him on his side. That is part of the reason I go with the addiction definition. In addiction, the addicted may genuinely want to quit, but lack the strength. Someone who wants to quit smoking will tell people they are quitting, ask for help to quit smoking, but when push comes to shove, they still smoke. Vader is kind of like that. He wants out, doesn't want to be the Emperor's lackey any more, even expresses that desire to Luke...he just lacks the strength to actually do it until Palpatine is in the process of killing Luke. GL wanted Vader's story to be tragic, so he wrote it so that Vader is kind of a slave to the Emperor, yes, kind of like an addiction - great analogy. -----signature----- Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. - Acts 2:38
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Nordom Registered: Jun '04	Date Posted: 9/10 1:27am Subject: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."
	Darth_Davi posted: That is part of the reason I go with the addiction definition. In addiction, the addicted may genuinely want to quit, but lack the strength. Someone who wants to quit smoking will tell people they are quitting, ask for help to quit smoking, but when push comes to shove, they still smoke. Vader is kind of like that. He wants out, doesn't want to be the Emperor's lackey any more, even expresses that desire to Luke...he just lacks the strength to actually do it until Palpatine is in the process of killing Luke. I agree that there is an element of addiction with Vader, he can't let go of his anger and hate because he needs it in some way. But there is still the question of why Luke would instanly do whatever the Emperor says if he had killed Vader. Unlike Anakin, Palpatine did not have much to offer Luke. Power? Luke had never expressed a desire to be all-powerfull, like Anakin. Saving his friends? Luke probably thought they were dead or dying at this stage and one of the people he was trying to save he wound up killing (Vader). A position within the Empire? Again Luke never express an interest in commanding others or wanting loads of money or a posh palace. Why wouldn't Luke just attack Palpatine with all he got? Regards Nordom -----signature----- "I think, therefore I am.. I think" "Morte, how do you stay afloat?" "Flatulence, you stupid polygon"
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History

Pages: 1 | 2 - ~~Previous~~ | Next | Reload