Jedi Council Forums - ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."

Post Reply | Active Topic Notification | Previous Active Topic | Next Active Topic

Pages: 1 | 2 - Previous | ~~Next~~ | Reload

Author	Topic: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."
TaradosGon Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 9/10 4:18pm Subject: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."
	In regards to "I MUST obey my master," I figure it was just fear on the part of Vader. Vader seems melancholy when he says "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" which suggested to me that he wishes he could go with Luke, but feels he can't because ... "[Luke doesn't] know the power of the Dark Side." He feared Palpatine's power and probably felt that he and Luke would both wind up dead if they tried to leave, it was too late. Vader was feeling conflicted, and questioned if what he was doing was right when talking to Luke down on Endor; and in ESB he tries to recruit Luke in a plan to overthrow Palpatine; but in Palpatine's presence in the throne room he's loyal, he blocks Luke's saber from killing Palpatine, he tells Luke there is no conflict, he seems ready to kill Luke if Luke doesn't turn, and even after Palpatine tells Luke to finish Vader off - and Luke refuses - Vader gets back up and loyally returns to Palpatine's side. I think Vader feared Palpatine's power, and while he began to show some ambition in ESB and showed conflict on Endor, when Palpatine is around I think Vader is basically scared into being blindly loyal. That's how I see it anyway.
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Darth_Davi Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 9/11 8:58pm Subject: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."
	Nordom posted: Darth_Davi posted: That is part of the reason I go with the addiction definition. In addiction, the addicted may genuinely want to quit, but lack the strength. Someone who wants to quit smoking will tell people they are quitting, ask for help to quit smoking, but when push comes to shove, they still smoke. Vader is kind of like that. He wants out, doesn't want to be the Emperor's lackey any more, even expresses that desire to Luke...he just lacks the strength to actually do it until Palpatine is in the process of killing Luke. I agree that there is an element of addiction with Vader, he can't let go of his anger and hate because he needs it in some way. But there is still the question of why Luke would instanly do whatever the Emperor says if he had killed Vader. Unlike Anakin, Palpatine did not have much to offer Luke. Power? Luke had never expressed a desire to be all-powerfull, like Anakin. Saving his friends? Luke probably thought they were dead or dying at this stage and one of the people he was trying to save he wound up killing (Vader). A position within the Empire? Again Luke never express an interest in commanding others or wanting loads of money or a posh palace. Why wouldn't Luke just attack Palpatine with all he got? Regards Nordom Narcissism. When Palpatine was seducing Anakin to the Dark Side, he was still in the process of consolidating his plans, his future as Emperor, while likely, was not certain. He needed to take time with Anakin because he didn't have the total control over the galaxy that he had by ROTJ. Basically, on the DSII, we have an Emperor who, with the exception of losing the first Death Star, has rarely if ever known defeat for the last 23 years. He was convinced he was the absolute center of the universe, he was all powerful in his own mind. I am sure that he is absolutely convinced that if Luke rejects him, he can more than overpower him in battle. He has been trained as a Sith for decades, Luke at most, has had only a few short years as a Jedi (Palpatine does not know for certain whether Yoda is alive, he does not know how Luke has gotten his training, only that he has). The thought that Luke could best him in battle probably never crossed his mind... So, Luke kills Vader...feels the rush of the Dark Side, which opens him up to corruption. Palpatine does not consider Luke a physical threat, so he would feel he is in control the entire way through. If Dark Side empowered Luke resists him, he tortures him with lightning like we see until Luke submits, or something like that. The key is Palpatine's confidence that Luke could never defeat him in combat, even with the Dark Side (at least not at his current level in force ability, which means Palpatine can simply work on him until he submits. I have no doubts Palpatine would know how powerful Luke WILL become, but I believe Palpatine would never consider that Luke's current level would be anywhere close to his own, even with Vader dispatched, given the amount of training he would suspect Luke has had. You ask why wouldn't Luke attack Palpatine with all he has, and I respond by saying Palpatine would have already considered that option, and dismissed it as ridiculous. From his point of view, all Luke has to give in a fight would not be close to enough to defeat Palpatine, so let him try, fail, and realize the hopelessness of it all. The despair of complete failure to defeat Palpatine would open him up even more to the Dark Side. (Of course, he didn't know that in a few minutes, he would be dead anyway, from the DSII being blown up, so I suppose its a moot point) -----signature----- What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon? Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide! It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 9/11 9:50pm Subject: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..." - Date Edited: 9/11 9:52pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
	Darth_Davi posted: If Dark Side empowered Luke resists him, he tortures him with lightning like we see until Luke submits, or something like that. Except Dark Luke presumably wouldn't throw away his saber. Darth_Davi posted: From his point of view, all Luke has to give in a fight would not be close to enough to defeat Palpatine, so let him try, fail, and realize the hopelessness of it all. "He could destroy us." "You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this." -----signature----- "Just when you think the amount of fail cannot possibly increase, the Internet keeps on giving." - SalvorHardin "Let's see them argue with nature and persuade the nonexistent polar bears not to eat them." - crownarmourer
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
xx_Anakin_xx Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 9/12 1:15am Subject: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."
	Darth_Davi posted: xx_Anakin_xx posted: Well the idea that Vader "must" obey his master condraticts with his desire for Luke to join him and overthrow Sidious - unless Vader also felt that would somehow be in line with obeying his master (based on Sith philosophy that dictates that killing his master was what he was supposed to do - but the point was to become powerful so one is ready to stand in the shoes of a master, not to get another who is powerful and gang up on the master, so...) That leads me to believe that Vader was simply rationalizing the conflict he felt. A part of him agreed with Luke, but another part of him didn't want to jump sides, he wanted Luke to join him on his side. That is part of the reason I go with the addiction definition. In addiction, the addicted may genuinely want to quit, but lack the strength. Someone who wants to quit smoking will tell people they are quitting, ask for help to quit smoking, but when push comes to shove, they still smoke. Vader is kind of like that. He wants out, doesn't want to be the Emperor's lackey any more, even expresses that desire to Luke...he just lacks the strength to actually do it until Palpatine is in the process of killing Luke. I dunno about this. Being a Sith was not something Vader wanted to quit like a smoking man wants to stop smoking. He wanted Sidious out, like any good Sith would desire in terms of his master, but he didn't want to quit and jump sides. That conflict was buried and Luke was the one that helped drive it upwards... -----signature----- I say we put together a 'kill squad' and assassinate Darth Krayt. Who's with me?
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Darth_Davi Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 9/12 9:28am Subject: ROTJ-You Dont Know The Power Of The Dark Side..."
	Arawn_Fenn posted: "He could destroy us." "You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this." Of course Palpatine is going to tell Vader Luke can destroy them...what is the alternative? "Hey, I want you to kill your own son, even though I don't believe he poses any kind of real threat to me?" That would have gone over well with Vader, I am sure. -----signature----- What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon? Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide! It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History

Pages: 1 | 2 - Previous | ~~Next~~ | Reload