Jedi Council Forums - Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style

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Author	Topic: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
PalpatineWasFramed Registered: Feb '09	Date Posted: 9/18 12:22am Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
	This is something I've wondered for quite some time now. When Luke is learning from Obi-wan, and later from Yoda, they both warn him about the Dark Side, and not to underestimate the Emperor. That's all well and good, but I think they could have elaborated a bit. It probably would have been helpful to Luke if, instead of cryptic warnings, one of them straight up said, "the Emperor can shoot lightning from his hands, and you can use your lightsaber to protect yourself." If Yoda is so wise, how exactly did he forget to mention that little bit of info? Granted, probably neither Yoda or Obi-wan expected Luke's strategy for confronting the Emperor to be "taunt him, then throw away your only means of defense," and maybe they thought he'd figure it out for himself. But really, I'm sure Luke would have appreciated a heads-up.
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TwiLekJedi Title: Classic Trilogy Manager Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 9/18 6:34am Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
	It might not have mattered. What good does it do to tell Luke all the amazing things a lightsaber can do when he throws it away? Absorbing the lightning with his saber would still have been fighting and that's exactly what he stopped doing. BUT IF he had been instructed in better fighting techniques (ie any at all), he might have gotten into a warrior's mindset and continued to fight. However, I'm pretty sure we can call it a deliberate choice by Yoda/Obi-Wan to train him the way they did as vague and peace-loving as possible. Because the other way failed the Jedi. It destroyed them. They trusted the Force instead of tradition. And it destroyed the Sith. Palpatine died because he expected everything to go as planned - or as usual. Luke simply didn't play along. Partly because of his character, partly because of his barebones training. In a sense, Yoda and Obi-Wan taught him "only" about the (light side of the) Force - not how to be a Jedi. Luke gets to decide what a Jedi is. He is the one giving himself the title. -----signature----- We do what we must Because we can For the good of all of us Except the ones who are dead
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SithStarSlayer Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 9/18 8:24am Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
	I wish that they hadn't deleted/re-wrote Palpatine's line about Master Yoda when he read Luke's mind. And to be fair with the training, Yoda and Ben took the less is more approach. -----signature----- Lucas didn't ruin my childhood but he sure wrecked Vader's ^^Foolish men mistake transitory semblance 4 eternal fact^^ o[]\|\|]ooooooooo[0]\|\|[]{ Gal: 5:19-21 Philippians 2:9-11
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tonykart34 Registered: Sep '09	Date Posted: 9/18 12:02pm Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
	Cause those who can't do teach.
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CloneUncleOwen Registered: Jul '09	Date Posted: 9/19 8:44pm Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
	Telepathic thought running through Luke's mind to Yoda and Obi-Wan as he is being fried by the Emperor: "If you two weren't dead already, I'D KILL YOU!" -----signature----- Hey, what are you trying to pull here... (CLICK) pull here... (CLICK) pull here...
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voodoopuuduu Title: Classic Trilogy Trivia Host Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 9/19 9:29pm Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
	Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style Kind of hard to learn from someone when they wont be straight with you. Luke leaving Dagobah in Empire Strikes Back: YODA: Stopped they must be. On this depends. ONLY a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil. Next time they meet on Dagobah in Return of the Jedi: LUKE: But I need your help. I've come back to complete the training. YODA:No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need. Luke should have then said : So what's up with all the grief you gave me when I left !! And you only dragged me back to this swamp to watch you die and tell me Ive been kissing my sister !!!! -----signature----- Winner CT Trivia Challenge 44, 54 Winner PT Trivia Challenge 10 , 13, 14, 17 Joint-Winner CT Challenge 49 and 50, PT Challange 18
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rsterling78 Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 9/20 7:08pm Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
	voodoopuuduu posted: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style Kind of hard to learn from someone when they wont be straight with you. Luke leaving Dagobah in Empire Strikes Back: YODA: Stopped they must be. On this depends. ONLY a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil. Next time they meet on Dagobah in Return of the Jedi: LUKE: But I need your help. I've come back to complete the training. YODA:No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need. Luke should have then said : So what's up with all the grief you gave me when I left !! And you only dragged me back to this swamp to watch you die and tell me Ive been kissing my sister !!!! LOL! And what's up with a Jedi using the Force only for defense, never for attack? That's a great military strategy. "Okay, boys, the enemy stronghold is dead ahead. We're going to burst in and then defend the hell out of ourselves until the enemy surrenders."
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BigBoy29 Registered: Dec '04	Date Posted: 9/20 9:31pm Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style - Date Edited: 9/20 9:36pm (1 edits total) Edited By: BigBoy29
	I think Lucas has always had a theme in Star Wars with Luke. It's about a can-do attitude, plucky determination, trust your gut, etc. He ignores Master Yoda, Ben is always lying to him, but he marches on and does the RIGHT THING, which I think Lucas rewards with him saving the day. This is a different lesson than from similar movies like Karate Kid -- where Ralph Macchio is rewarded because he finally followed his teacher's advice to the T - once he does that - he wins. The lesson from Luke is about striking out on your own, listening to your own gut, not your teachers. EDIT: If you switched roles - Assign Pat Morita to Luke - Luke might have still got the job done. Assign Obi Wan to teach Ralph Macchio, it would have been a disaster. -----signature----- Lando: "She saved me at the Battle of Tannabe". Han: "Hey remember, I won her fair and square." Lando: "She was mine before she was yours, she was mine before she was yours ..."
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xx_Anakin_xx Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 9/21 12:08am Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style - Date Edited: 9/21 12:11am (2 edits total) Edited By: xx_Anakin_xx
	I find it difficult to believe that Yoda and Obi-Wan went for the peaceful approach because they believed that was the way to defeat Palpatine. The only way that could be true was if they believed that Luke being Mr. Peace would end the way it did, with Vader turning back to the Jedi and killing Palptine. That would require that at least Obi-Wan was lying (or more wise guy double talk) when he said that Luke had to kill his father. Yoda saying he had to face Vader would still work - but I really don't believe this is what either Yoda or Obi-Wan had in mind. They were wrong about Vader - they felt Luke could defeat them both with the light side of the Force and his more or less full load of midos, or would die trying, but either way, he was their only hope (until Leia grew strong). Either Yoda or Obi would have been better in a duel against Vader and the Emperor, in terms of skill, so I think they were banking on Luke's superduper heritage. They were right for the wrong reasons and they sent him along with the wrong means in mind as well. I don't think they planned for him to throw down his saber, but I don't think they realized just how much like his father he was - they kind of knew, but not the full extent of it. Luke's realization of his huge flaw of anger saved him from darkness. But after that the ship was sunk - all hope was lost in as far as his succeeding in that quest. He succeeded on his own unbelieveable quest of reaching his father tho, the one they didn't support. Finally, it was Anakin who, as a result of Luke's success in reaching him, beat down Vader and killed Palpatine and who was the actual hope in that situation, and the one that neither Yoda or Obi-Wan counted on. Yoda and Obi-Wan were very wise in some things, and Yoda more so, but in this scenario, they were misguided and wrong. Luke was right, there wasn't just one other...there were two others, Luke just had to reach the third hope. -----signature----- I say we put together a 'kill squad' and assassinate Darth Krayt. Who's with me?
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PalpatineWasFramed Registered: Feb '09	Date Posted: 9/21 11:09am Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
	These are some interesting views here in this thread in regards to the intentions and methods of Obi-wan and Yoda. But it still doesn't explain why they chose to omit that one fairly important fact. I mean, they both clearly knew that Palpatine was capable of shooting lightning. I don't see why they couldn't have at least mentioned that little fact to Luke. Considering that Palpatine doesn't seem to be interested in saber fighting as of Episode VI, the lightning is really the only dangerous thing he can do. And the two wisest Jedi in the galaxy apparently just forgot to mention it to Luke, who is their "only hope". That's like telling Luke he needed to go into the chamber underneath Jabba's throne room, and forgetting to tell him there's a Rancor there. It's just sloppy!
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CloneUncleOwen Registered: Jul '09	Date Posted: 9/21 11:26am Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
	voodoopuuduu posted: And you only dragged me back to this swamp to watch you die and tell me Ive been kissing my sister !!!! EEEwwww! Sick! And she was giving me the tongue. HARD...! It's a good thing you vanished when you died, 'cause I woulda dragged your dead skull out to the swamp and fed it to that thing that swallowed R2! -----signature----- Hey, what are you trying to pull here... (CLICK) pull here... (CLICK) pull here...
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TwiLekJedi Title: Classic Trilogy Manager Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 9/21 12:24pm Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
	PalpatineWasFramed posted: These are some interesting views here in this thread in regards to the intentions and methods of Obi-wan and Yoda. But it still doesn't explain why they chose to omit that one fairly important fact. I mean, they both clearly knew that Palpatine was capable of shooting lightning. I don't see why they couldn't have at least mentioned that little fact to Luke. Considering that Palpatine doesn't seem to be interested in saber fighting as of Episode VI, the lightning is really the only dangerous thing he can do. And the two wisest Jedi in the galaxy apparently just forgot to mention it to Luke, who is their "only hope". Well, even the out-of-universe answer doesn't ruin anything. We're free to assume they told him off-screen. An on-screen explanation would have been boring and ruined the surprise. We have no evidence Luke didn't know. We only see he doesn't do anything about it. Which, again, is the point. If we overanalyze it, we could even say he acted in complete opposition to what he was taught. A Jedi only defends himself, they say. Luke doesn't even do that. And wins. -----signature----- We do what we must Because we can For the good of all of us Except the ones who are dead
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Merlin_Ambrosius69 Registered: Aug '08	Date Posted: 9/21 2:45pm Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
	"Soon I'll be dead, and you with me." Luke's tact is to keep Palpatine on the DS until the Rebels can blow it up. If the Rebels can't achieve the DS's destruction, Luke's tact is to allow himself to be destroyed ("as Obi-Wan did", and as Luke has already tried to do on Bespin), so as to remove himself from all Sithly temptation and deprive the Emperor of a new apprentice. At least, that's how I read Luke's actions. Surely he must know the Emperor has some kind of weapon or power; the old man is a Sith, after all. Whether Luke knows specifically what that power is, or whether he doesn't, is immaterial; the point is he's throwing his saber away in an act of self-sacrifice. -----signature----- "Chance makes playthings of us all." -- Seneca Shameless non-Manager Emeritus sock of Vortigern99. Fan of George RR Martin, JK Rowling and JRR Tolkien.
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xx_Anakin_xx Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 9/21 4:09pm Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
	TwiLekJedi posted: PalpatineWasFramed posted: These are some interesting views here in this thread in regards to the intentions and methods of Obi-wan and Yoda. But it still doesn't explain why they chose to omit that one fairly important fact. I mean, they both clearly knew that Palpatine was capable of shooting lightning. I don't see why they couldn't have at least mentioned that little fact to Luke. Considering that Palpatine doesn't seem to be interested in saber fighting as of Episode VI, the lightning is really the only dangerous thing he can do. And the two wisest Jedi in the galaxy apparently just forgot to mention it to Luke, who is their "only hope". Well, even the out-of-universe answer doesn't ruin anything. We're free to assume they told him off-screen. An on-screen explanation would have been boring and ruined the surprise. We have no evidence Luke didn't know. We only see he doesn't do anything about it. Which, again, is the point. If we overanalyze it, we could even say he acted in complete opposition to what he was taught. A Jedi only defends himself, they say. Luke doesn't even do that. And wins. It is true that Lukes tosses his saber away and doesn't even defend. And one could say he is emulating Obi-Wan in his battle against Vader. But then Luke started pleading with his father, which rather changes the scenario from what Obi-Wan did. Luke had his own agenda which differed from Yoda and Obi-Wan's - so his behavior differed too. I don't think it makes the elder Jedi's teaching styles questionable; nobody is perfect. -----signature----- I say we put together a 'kill squad' and assassinate Darth Krayt. Who's with me?
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PalpatineWasFramed Registered: Feb '09	Date Posted: 9/21 9:05pm Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
	Merlin_Ambrosius69 posted: "Soon I'll be dead, and you with me." Luke's tact is to keep Palpatine on the DS until the Rebels can blow it up. If the Rebels can't achieve the DS's destruction, Luke's tact is to allow himself to be destroyed ("as Obi-Wan did", and as Luke has already tried to do on Bespin), so as to remove himself from all Sithly temptation and deprive the Emperor of a new apprentice. At least, that's how I read Luke's actions. Surely he must know the Emperor has some kind of weapon or power; the old man is a Sith, after all. Whether Luke knows specifically what that power is, or whether he doesn't, is immaterial; the point is he's throwing his saber away in an act of self-sacrifice. If Luke's goal is to die in the interest of killing the Emperor, then he should have just grabbed his saber off the armrest of the Emperor's chair, and cut a hole through that gigantic window. The sudden vacuum would shatter the entire thing, and explosive decompression would kill Luke and Palps. Vader might survive, depending on how well-sealed his suit is, but that's fine since Luke doesn't seem too keen on killing Vader anyway. Or, Luke could have skipped the whole "get captured by Vader" scenario, and crash a X-Wing full of thermal detonators right through window of the Emperor's throne room. That would set a different tone for the movie's ending, eh?
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CraigTNelson Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 9/21 9:28pm Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
	Yeah, it would have made it incredibly anti-climactic and stupid. -----signature----- hello
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