Author Topic: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
TwiLekJedi  70041 posts
Title: Classic Trilogy Manager
Registered: Jun '01
49704_H213: Halflife
Date Posted: 9/22 4:07am Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
I thought the difference between sacrifice and suicide attack was more obvious...

 

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voodoopuuduu  6874 posts
Title: Classic Trilogy Trivia Host
Registered: Mar '04
48595_Chewbacca Brian
Date Posted: 9/22 7:19pm Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
If Luke's goal is to die in the interest of killing the Emperor, then he should have just grabbed his saber off the armrest of the Emperor's chair, and cut a hole through that gigantic window. The sudden vacuum would shatter the entire thing, and explosive decompression would kill Luke and Palps.
You have a point. If Yodas and Obi-Wans plan was to kill the Emperor, they certainly lacked ingenuity, cleverness and creativity. The plan as was, was full of maybes, ifs etc, that could have gone wrong at many points. Why didnt they just sucker Palps into some kind of fool proof trap ?

 

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PMT99  4250 posts
Registered: Nov '00
6595_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 9/23 1:44am Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
PalpatineWasFramed posted:
These are some interesting views here in this thread in regards to the intentions and methods of Obi-wan and Yoda. But it still doesn't explain why they chose to omit that one fairly important fact. I mean, they both clearly knew that Palpatine was capable of shooting lightning. I don't see why they couldn't have at least mentioned that little fact to Luke.

Considering that Palpatine doesn't seem to be interested in saber fighting as of Episode VI, the lightning is really the only dangerous thing he can do. And the two wisest Jedi in the galaxy apparently just forgot to mention it to Luke, who is their "only hope".

That's like telling Luke he needed to go into the chamber underneath Jabba's throne room, and forgetting to tell him there's a Rancor there. It's just sloppy!


3 Reasons:

1. The fact that Luke ran off to Bespin to rescue his friends is what prevented Yoda and Obi-wan from warning Luke about the Emperor's ability to fire lightning from his fingertips.

2. Yoda didn't have much left to live and had to tell Luke everything he could before he became one with the Force. Plus, Luke was more concerned with wanting to know why his Jedi mentors lied to him about Vader killing his father.

and

3. Neither Yoda nor Obi-wan wanted Luke to be tempted by the Dark Side. They feared that if Luke knew what the the Emperor can do, he'd suffer the same tragedy that Anakin did.

 

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voodoopuuduu  6874 posts
Title: Classic Trilogy Trivia Host
Registered: Mar '04
48595_Chewbacca Brian
Date Posted: 9/23 9:20am Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
3. Neither Yoda nor Obi-wan wanted Luke to be tempted by the Dark Side. They feared that if Luke knew what the the Emperor can do, he'd suffer the same tragedy that Anakin did.

But Luke isnt in the same situation Anakin was. Whats the Emperor going to tell Luke ?

(paraphrasing)
PALPATINE: You have great wisdom, Luke. Know the power of the dark side. The power to save your mother.

That just wouldnt fly after 20 years, heh.

 

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timmoishere  7865 posts
Registered: Jun '07
14706_AT-AT
Date Posted: 9/23 9:28am Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
PalpatineWasFramed posted:
If Luke's goal is to die in the interest of killing the Emperor, then he should have just grabbed his saber off the armrest of the Emperor's chair, and cut a hole through that gigantic window. The sudden vacuum would shatter the entire thing, and explosive decompression would kill Luke and Palps. Vader might survive, depending on how well-sealed his suit is, but that's fine since Luke doesn't seem too keen on killing Vader anyway


That didn't work so well when General Grievous tried to shatter the bridge windows to kill Anakin and Obi-Wan. Safety measures against explosive decompression FTW.

 

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PalpatineWasFramed 
Registered: Feb '09
8029_Emperor Palpatine
Date Posted: 9/23 3:12pm Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
timmoishere posted:
PalpatineWasFramed posted:
If Luke's goal is to die in the interest of killing the Emperor, then he should have just grabbed his saber off the armrest of the Emperor's chair, and cut a hole through that gigantic window. The sudden vacuum would shatter the entire thing, and explosive decompression would kill Luke and Palps. Vader might survive, depending on how well-sealed his suit is, but that's fine since Luke doesn't seem too keen on killing Vader anyway


That didn't work so well when General Grievous tried to shatter the bridge windows to kill Anakin and Obi-Wan. Safety measures against explosive decompression FTW.



Do we know that there are emergency shutters on that window? Palpatine doesn't seem like a man who is overly concerned with safety. If he were, he probably would have asked maintenance to put a grate over the huge reactor shaft in his throne room. His overconfidence is his weakness, after all.

Also, they're on a space station here, as opposed to a ship like Anakin, Obi-wan and Grievous were. Never mind the fact that the Death Star II isn't finished; considering that it's largely stationary and protected by a deflector shield, it seems likely that such safety measures such as those shutters wouldn't be in place.

Even if the explosive decompression wouldn't work, though, I see no reason why Luke couldn't have just waited until Han had the shield down and then carried out a kamikaze attack on the Emperor's throne room. I'm sure he could have figured out where it was; the alliance had the plans for the Death Star II, after all.

 

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morpha2  745 posts
Registered: Aug '05
42926_Wampa
Date Posted: 9/23 3:17pm Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
How do we know they didn't tell him? Maybe they did. It doesn't matter anyway--Luke disarmed himself in front of the Emperor. He purposefully left himself open to any attack. I think he knew that either (a) the Emperor was going to ask him politely to leave or (b) he was going to be killed for his refusal to fight/turn.

 

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Dark--Helmet  295 posts
Registered: Apr '03
6456_Yoda - Concentraaaate!
Date Posted: 9/23 4:30pm Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
PalpatineWasFramed posted:
timmoishere posted:
PalpatineWasFramed posted:
If Luke's goal is to die in the interest of killing the Emperor, then he should have just grabbed his saber off the armrest of the Emperor's chair, and cut a hole through that gigantic window. The sudden vacuum would shatter the entire thing, and explosive decompression would kill Luke and Palps. Vader might survive, depending on how well-sealed his suit is, but that's fine since Luke doesn't seem too keen on killing Vader anyway


That didn't work so well when General Grievous tried to shatter the bridge windows to kill Anakin and Obi-Wan. Safety measures against explosive decompression FTW.



Do we know that there are emergency shutters on that window? Palpatine doesn't seem like a man who is overly concerned with safety. If he were, he probably would have asked maintenance to put a grate over the huge reactor shaft in his throne room. His overconfidence is his weakness, after all.

Also, they're on a space station here, as opposed to a ship like Anakin, Obi-wan and Grievous were. Never mind the fact that the Death Star II isn't finished; considering that it's largely stationary and protected by a deflector shield, it seems likely that such safety measures such as those shutters wouldn't be in place.

Even if the explosive decompression wouldn't work, though, I see no reason why Luke couldn't have just waited until Han had the shield down and then carried out a kamikaze attack on the Emperor's throne room. I'm sure he could have figured out where it was; the alliance had the plans for the Death Star II, after all.





I think it's safe to assume that the 1# guy in the empire has emergency shutters on his windows.So Luke,Vader or anybody else couldn't try something.There's no grate over the reactor shaft because it's there to make a dramatic scene and death for Palp,like the pit and laser doors in the TPM.

It makes no sense for a space station not to have emergency measure like shutters.It doesn't matter that it's not finished there are personnel including the emperor who are walking around with no space suits on.

Luke has no way of knowing the attack on the generator would succeed.The Emperor knew the rebels where coming he could have very easily moved to another room.But manly I never thought that was the Emperor's Throne Room in the first place.I always thought it was a make shift throne room.


PalpatineWasFramed posted:
These are some interesting views here in this thread in regards to the intentions and methods of Obi-wan and Yoda. But it still doesn't explain why they chose to omit that one fairly important fact. I mean, they both clearly knew that Palpatine was capable of shooting lightning. I don't see why they couldn't have at least mentioned that little fact to Luke.

Considering that Palpatine doesn't seem to be interested in saber fighting as of Episode VI, the lightning is really the only dangerous thing he can do. And the two wisest Jedi in the galaxy apparently just forgot to mention it to Luke, who is their "only hope".

That's like telling Luke he needed to go into the chamber underneath Jabba's throne room, and forgetting to tell him there's a Rancor there. It's just sloppy!


I think the answer is because Pre PT The Emperor didn't fight with a lightsabre and had never meet obi and yoda or at least they had never fought him and found out what he could do.

 

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Sweetcurse  117 posts
Registered: Dec '04
14752_Palpatine
Date Posted: 9/28 2:00pm Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
I think you are focusing too much on a detail. Luke knowing or not about lighting isn't the point at all. It's of no consequence in the overall theme here. Any further discussion is full of assumptions and opinions...very geeky opinions.

Yoda tells Luke that he doesn't need training when he comes back because his failure in Bespin has already taught him that which he needed.

Also, Luke deciding to sacrifice himself at the end of ROTJ is very in line with ESB. Luke has already learned to let go of himself, of his life. He basically chose to die instead of turning to the darkside in Bespin, it was about not letting himself be used as a tool of evil. In reality, what he does in ROTJ is not a surprise at all then. He had already made that choice once before. All the Sith had left was taunting him into tasting the dark side through anger.

In going to the Sith on the DS, Luke has no plan at all, he's in the Living Force fully. He's just going with it trusting the force and making sure not to turn to the darkside. Hopefully, turning Vader back in the process. He turns himself in simply to deviate attention from his friends in the moon and hopefully distract the Emperor and Vader.

Knowing how to deflect lightining does nothing. Also, pleading to vader for help is more an act of trying to reach Vader than just saving his life.

I think that was the idea here in the end. The Jedi went from being too into the Unifying Force, meaning into trying to control everything themselves, to simply letting go. They preached letting go, but didn;t live up tp it in the PT. They finally see the light thanks to Qui Gon. Remember Qui Gon and Kenobi's exchanges at the start of TPM. Jinn is into going with the flow, Ben into wanting to understand too much. The PT Jedi wouldn't have picked up Jar Jar, or trusted Anakin, that is the whole point! Jinn was right in the end and his way saved the galaxy. Reminds me of Ben's reaction ehen he senses Anaking is coming along. But that was Jinn, that was the living force.

 

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TwiLekJedi  70041 posts
Title: Classic Trilogy Manager
Registered: Jun '01
49704_H213: Halflife
Date Posted: 10/15 4:13pm Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
Dark--Helmet posted:
I think it's safe to assume that the 1# guy in the empire has emergency shutters on his windows.So Luke,Vader or anybody else couldn't try something.There's no grate over the reactor shaft because it's there to make a dramatic scene and death for Palp,like the pit and laser doors in the TPM.

It makes no sense for a space station not to have emergency measure like shutters.It doesn't matter that it's not finished there are personnel including the emperor who are walking around with no space suits on.


Yeah, we have to give them credit, there are actually railings around the bottomless pit. Health and Safety Approval does not factor in a conflict between the personifications of good and evil. tongue

 

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RedHeadKevin  314 posts
Registered: May '04
6982_Chewie<br>Galactic Heroes
Date Posted: 11/5 10:50am Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
My view on Luke's training was twofold: First, that his training was rushed, and he was taught just enough to get by. Obi-Wan and Yoda were teaching Luke a much more streamlined version of Jedi training. His tranining took what, a couple weeks, rather than the usual 10 years or so that regular Padawans went through.

Second, Obi-Wan and Yoda changed thier views on Jedi Training during their years in exile/conferring with Qui-Gon's ghost. As Palpy said in Episode 3, they stopped looking at "the narrow, dogmatic view of the Jedi, and embraced a larger view of the Force." They taught Luke how to defend himself with the Force and use the Good Side, but he also learned to use, and later discard, the Dark Side. His agression/hate/anger/fear was what saved his backside in the fight on DSII and allowed him to disarm (heh heh) his father, but not kill him. After the fight with Vader was over, Luke threw away his anger and hate, and even his weapon. Yoda and Ben's training allowed Luke to tap into the power of the Dark Side, and use the WHOLE Force, but in the end, he was also trained enough to let go of the Darkness.

It was that narrow view of the Force that was the downfall of the Jedi during the end of the Old Republic. They ignored huge chunks of information about the Force, and only allowed the Padawans to learn about the good stuff. By only allowing Padawans to know about the "knowlege and defense" aspects of the Force, they made it very hard for them to use any kind of aggression in battle, which cost a lot of lives on Geonosis. This training also made it very difficult for the Jedi to recognize when the Dark Side was right in the room with them. I don't think that they were ignorant to Palpatine's evil, they just didn't know what that wierd tingle was.

 

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DRush76  447 posts
Registered: Jan '08
14816_Qui-Gon Jinn
Date Posted: 11/5 11:38am Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
Luke leaving Dagobah in Empire Strikes Back:
YODA: Stopped they must be. On this depends. ONLY a fully trained Jedi
Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor.
If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path,
as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil.

Next time they meet on Dagobah in Return of the Jedi:
LUKE: But I need your help. I've come back to
complete the training.
YODA:No more training do you require. Already know
you that which you need.



This has always baffled me. How did Luke go from being a novice Jedi when he left Dagobah near the end of ESB to a fully trained Jedi in the middle of ROTJ? Especially since the period between the two films was only a year . . . and Luke never received any further training from Yoda. How did that happen?

 

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DarthBoba  33059 posts
Registered: Jun '00
8187_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 11/5 3:23pm Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style - Date Edited: 11/5 3:36pm (1 edits total) Edited By: DarthBoba
He trained on his own. I don't see why Obi-Wan's ghost couldn't have been giving him lessons as well.

Plus of course Luke isn't some naive Padawan in TESB-it's debatable whether or not Vader was really trying to kill him in their TESB duel, but Luke still definitely gave a credible effort in their duel with them and even got in a shot that caught Vader cold and probably would have killed him if it weren't for Vader's armor:



Not to mention that Luke has been a soldier in the Rebellion for nearly half a decade by ROTJ. Anakin and Obi-Wan's power grew while fighting in the Clone Wars; I don't see why Luke's would not have fighting in the Galactic Civil War.


Edit: Plus, of course, Luke didn't choose the quick & easy path.

 

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VadersPappy 
Registered: Jul '09
24202_Palpatine
Date Posted: 11/6 11:34am Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
Yoda was correct, Luke had learned all that he needed-Darth Vader was his father! As I have stated in other posts, I believe that Obi and Yoda thought the best way to defeat the Emperor was for DV to revert back to Anakin and fulfill his obligation as the Chosen One. Yes, I know about Obi's line that if Luke won't kill his father the Emperor has already won, but I think that was Plan B.

Also, although we don't get to see all of Luke's training with Yoda, it seemed like the focus of the training was to prevent Luke from falling to the Dark Side like his father. There was no lightsaber training, as would be expected if Luke was to fight DV and/or Palpy. Yoda stressed the importance of focusing on the moment and calming's one mind. I started a thread about the importance of the Cave, and how that sequence opened Luke's eyes about both the potential for Luke to fall and that there was a man beneath the mask.
Their methods obviously worked.

 

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Aggravated71 
Registered: Aug '09
Date Posted: 11/6 10:18pm Subject: Yoda and Obi-Wan's questionable teaching style
Dont forget,in ROTJ,Luke tells Leia on Endor,what she needs to know,and his goal was to try to bring Vader back to the good side.Luke believed he could,and he was willing to die for it.
If he didnt make it back,she was their last hope.Luke never got a formal life Jedi training,but he learned enough over that short time that he had a choice to make.


 

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