| Author |
Topic:
Vader: Sith Lord or Dark Jedi
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Only_2
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
6/19/02 10:52am
Subject:
RE: Vader: Sith Lord or Dark Jedi
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Dark Jedi don't exist.
The EU does not exist.
It is not open to interpretation, it just is what it is.
I don't call Luke "Captain Faggywhiner" even though his poor delivery of dialog in ESB and ANH makes it an appropriate title.
I think I will write an EU novel and rename the Skywalker family the "Bitchywhiners"
There can only be 2, Jedi and Sith, no more, no less.
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
6/19/02 11:30am
Subject:
RE: Vader: Sith Lord or Dark Jedi
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Not a big Skywalker fan?
Come on-he really wasn't that bad.
It was the late 70's, half the cast was high on SOMETHING while they were filming....
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JediLord
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
6/19/02 11:38am
Subject:
RE: Vader: Sith Lord or Dark Jedi
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Can someone tell me where the term Dark Jedi first appeared?
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My post doesn't have an Infinities logo. Does that make it canon?
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
6/19/02 11:46am
Subject:
RE: Vader: Sith Lord or Dark Jedi
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Ask Genghis12, if he doesn't know it, it doesn't exist...
(except for one tiny quote from George Lucas, but hey-who's counting.....)
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Genghis12
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '99
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Date Posted:
6/19/02 12:19pm
Subject:
RE: Vader: Sith Lord or Dark Jedi
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JediLord...
The first mention of the term "Dark Jedi" is from Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire, 1991.Heir to the Empire
(paperback, P. 40.)
"We might also have irritated him," Thrawn pointed out. "A Dark Jedi's pride and sensibilities are not to be taken lightly..."
Mr44...
Flattery will get you nowhere.  
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Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Prize)
http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=1111146
"Envy the nations that have heroes. Pity the ones that need them." -- Van Zan
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Fire_Light
Registered:
Mar '02
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Date Posted:
6/19/02 12:42pm
Subject:
RE: Vader: Sith Lord or Dark Jedi
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The points on the thread go round and round
round and round
round and round
The points on the thread go round and round
All day long.
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JediLord
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
6/19/02 2:22pm
Subject:
RE: Vader: Sith Lord or Dark Jedi
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Thank you Genghis12. I hte to do this, but...if the term Dark Jedi is not mentioned in the films, and is an EU term, then in this case Darth Vader is a Sith Lord and only a Sith Lord. *braces self*
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My post doesn't have an Infinities logo. Does that make it canon?
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GrandAdmiralJello
Title:
Emperor
• EUC
• JCC
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
6/19/02 9:00pm
Subject:
RE: Vader: Sith Lord or Dark Jedi
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Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.
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Genghis12
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '99
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Date Posted:
6/19/02 10:56pm
Subject:
RE: Vader: Sith Lord or Dark Jedi
- Date Edited:
6/19/02 10:59pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Genghis12
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Jedilord...
"I hte to do this, but...if the term Dark Jedi is not mentioned in the films, and is an EU term, then in this case Darth Vader is a Sith Lord and only a Sith Lord. *braces self*"
That's a moot point. Please mention which scene in any film thus far where Darth Vader is a Sith (and only a Sith Lord, for that matter).
We know that Vader is a Sith Lord only from sources outside the movie - i.e. things which "expand" on the movies. However, there's clear, unambiguous proof of Vader being an evil Jedi in ANH. The common term for such a person is "Dark Jedi," a term which merely happens to have originated in the EU, like Coruscant. But, the concept, the core of the term is based entirely in the films themselves.
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Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Prize)
http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=1111146
"Envy the nations that have heroes. Pity the ones that need them." -- Van Zan
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Jedi Merkurian
Title: Games: RPG d20 GM
Registered:
May '00
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Date Posted:
6/20/02 4:25am
Subject:
RE: Vader: Sith Lord or Dark Jedi
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JediLord wrote:
"I hte to do this, but...if the term Dark Jedi is not mentioned in the films, and is an EU term..."
Then you're saying that the term "Dark Lord of the Sith" was an EU term prior to 1999. Thanks for admitting that! 
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
6/20/02 10:24am
Subject:
RE: Vader: Sith Lord or Dark Jedi
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For me, I don't think this issue is an EU/anti-EU debate. Lucas and Lucas Ltd has approved the EU stories and I think that they are valid unless they directly conflict with Lucas' vision.
The topic here is wether or not Vader is a Sith or a Dark Jedi.
I just do not like the term Dark Jedi at all. It is not specific and it implies some sort of connection to the Jedi order, which it does not have.
A Jedi is a Jedi
A Sith is a Sith
A Padawan is a Padawan
See the pattern?
what we need is a new term that means "former Jedi who left the order, but is now evil"
I suggested "Thrall" because it sounds menacing
Another person suggested "Magus" because of its mystical link
Whatever the new term is, it needs to have a specific meaning and eliminate the ambigous nature of Dark Jedi...
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Fire_Light
Registered:
Mar '02
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Date Posted:
6/20/02 11:42am
Subject:
RE: Vader: Sith Lord or Dark Jedi
- Date Edited:
6/20/02 11:43am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Fire_Light
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It is not specific and it implies some sort of connection to the Jedi order, which it does not have.
I think its being unspecific is the whole point, Dark Jedi is not an Order like the Jedi Order or the Sith Order, it's just random Force adepts who have had Jedi training, and use what they've learned from that training in the service of the Dark side of the Force. And it does have a connection to the Jedi order, Dark Jedi are Jedi (any level) who have gone bad.
Dooku and Vader are both Sith Lords who have had traing in the Jedi order. If they had never joined up with Palpatine and were still of the Dark Side, then they would be classified as only Dark Jedi.
Maul and Sidious are both only Sith Lords, a specific Order of Darksiders. To my knowledge, neither has received any Jedi training of any kind so they cannot be called Dark Jedi.
Last, I think being a Sith Lord overides the title of Dark Jedi because it is specific and signifies a particular Order, which Dark Jedi does not. So while Vader can be correctly called both a Dark Jedi and a Sith Lord, the title of Sith Lord is the most proper one to use when describing him in the OT (except for the end of RotJ).
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
6/20/02 1:57pm
Subject:
RE: Vader: Sith Lord or Dark Jedi
- Date Edited:
6/20/02 1:59pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Mr44
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Well, we agree on some points, but still disagree on others:
it's just random force adepts who have Jedi training:
I don't think this is the case. While I do AGREE with the assumption that not all force users are Sith Or Jedi, I don't agree with your assumption that those who have had Jedi training are considered Jedi. Just what is a Padawan then? if you undergo training, but fail the test, you won't become a Jedi, you loose all rights to be connected to that term.
Same thing with those who are expelled. Once you abandon the Jedi code, you abandon all rights to be connected to the Jedi.
I consider Dark Jedi to be similar to the term "crooked cop" Here, crooked is a descriptor for cop, it's not a term that stands alone. You wouldn't say "meet my partner, Bob"- he's a CROOKED cop. A police officer that was corrupt would be thrown out. Why would you then say that Vader was a Dark Jedi?
Since we are all in almost total agreement that Dark Jedi are NOT Jedi, here lies the conflicting nature of the term.
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Sturm Antilles
Title: Former Manager
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
6/20/02 2:13pm
Subject:
RE: Vader: Sith Lord or Dark Jedi
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Just what is a Padawan then? if you undergo training, but fail the test, you won't become a Jedi, you loose all rights to be connected to that term.
Not necessarily. While one can't be a "Jedi Knight" until they complete the Trials, they could still be considered a "Jedi Padawan".
In ESB, Luke was still a "Jedi apprentice".
Those that don't know better, or don't get technical, can call anyone with Jedi arts training ( from an initiate to a Master )..."Jedi".
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
6/20/02 2:27pm
Subject:
RE: Vader: Sith Lord or Dark Jedi
- Date Edited:
6/20/02 2:27pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Mr44
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Hmmmm. Interesting points raised, but...
In ESB, Luke was still a Jedi Apprentice
Yes, but he was working to become a Jedi, so Jedi apprentice or Jedi Padawan would be natural extensions.
This would be equvivalent to someone who is a Doctoral CANDIDATE, they are actively completing their Phd requirements. If that person gave up on the requirements, he would not earn the Phd, and therefore would not be entitled to use that particular title.
What about someone who was completely expelled from the order? THAT person would not have the right to be considered Jedi_____.
When Dooku or Vader left the Jedi Order, they turned in their "Jedi memebership card" so to speak. After that, they became something totally different.
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