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Topic:
ROTJ SE No Bonfire of the Vader?
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Bib Fortuna, Twi'lek
Registered:
Jul '99
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Date Posted:
11/14/02 8:03pm
Subject:
RE: ROTJ SE No Bonfire of the Vader?
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His body probably disappeared while on the shuttle en route back to Endor.
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razorsaces
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
11/14/02 8:36pm
Subject:
RE: ROTJ SE No Bonfire of the Vader?
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exactly, when you're starving for oxygen, you fall uncon BEFORE you die.
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Alderaanian_Jedi
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
11/15/02 4:06am
Subject:
RE: ROTJ SE No Bonfire of the Vader?
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FS everyone, read the databanks! Anakin disappeared!
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PMT99
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
11/17/02 12:48am
Subject:
RE: ROTJ SE No Bonfire of the Vader?
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Watch the movies, ANAKIN DID NOT DISAPPEAR!
It didn't show Anakin disappearing and it should have if it was that important like they did with Obi-wan and Yoda and after what Qui-Gon did in AOTC, it proves that you don't have to vanish upon death to come back as a ghost.
"Yeah...but you never get to see him either."
We never saw Obi-wan again after he was killed in ANH and yet, we heard his voice.
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Bib Fortuna, Twi'lek
Registered:
Jul '99
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Date Posted:
11/17/02 12:51am
Subject:
RE: ROTJ SE No Bonfire of the Vader?
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The movie neither confirms nor denies that Anakin disappeared. Therefore, we must go into the EU to find out if he did or not. And TOS says he did.
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Delta 5 in the EUDF, armed with a canon cannon
Comic Book Guy: Once again, my underwear has become tangled in a cow catcher.
Homer: Unguarded breakfast, the sweetest taboo.
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PMT99
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
11/17/02 12:59am
Subject:
RE: ROTJ SE No Bonfire of the Vader?
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The EU doesn't count for me.
I only go by what the movie shows and it shows Anakin's body being visible when he died and he only had the helmet on because that's how Luke remembered him when he met him.
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Rabid_Balding_Ewok
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
11/17/02 10:58am
Subject:
RE: ROTJ SE No Bonfire of the Vader?
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Obi Wan dies he vanishes on the spot. Yoda dies he vanishes on the spot. Vader dies and his body is still hanging around. And no, he did not pass out and die off camera. We saw his death. With that out of the way. Vaders suit is still full at the funeral pyre. Unless a) Vader had a metal torso or b) Luke stuffed the torso part of Vaders suit with leaves to make it look like something was in there.
As was said earlier Qui Gon somehow manages to retain his identity with the Force in AOTC, who knows he might actualy show up as a ghost in EP:3. Yet his body was burned to a crisp. So why does Vaders body need to dissapear if Qui Gons didn't?
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razorsaces
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
11/17/02 2:53pm
Subject:
RE: ROTJ SE No Bonfire of the Vader?
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Hearding his voice during heavy meditation of the strongest Jedi is different than visually appearing to a n00b Jedi.
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JANGO-FOOT
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
11/17/02 6:17pm
Subject:
RE: ROTJ SE No Bonfire of the Vader?
- Date Edited:
11/17/02 6:24pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
JANGO-FOOT
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A lot has been made about the Jedi disappearing acts. Its obvious the ROTJ SE scripts have been changed for GLs plots in the prequel Trilogy.
Some one in a previous post mentioned that Qui-Gon Jinn didn't disappear and come back to help Obi-Wan in his time of need regarding Anakins troubles.
The reason for this is because at the time of filming ep 2, liam neeson was involved in an apparently v. bad motorcycle accident. But he was scheduled to appear in episode 2.
The word on the street is that he may be scheduled for an appearance in Ep 3 as a spirit.
The reason I mention this is that in ep. 2 when Anakin kills the Tuskan Raiders, on the dvd commentary GL talks about Yoda sensing what Anakin has done and also hearing Qui Gons voice, which is old dialogue from ep 1, because Neeson wasn't available for new stuff. (CHECK OUT THE COMMENTARY)
So it seems that even if you don't disappear immediately, you can still take on this spirit form. So Anakin may well have been in the suit.
The two may not be related at all.
It may well have something to do with the ability to use the force.
It could have some thing to do with being at 'one' with the force.
For example Obi Wan and Yoda had time to contemplate their lives i.e. what they did wrong, how it should have been done etc.
Where as Qui Gon is killed, while so many questions went unanswered, i.e. who was Maul etc. One of the reasons that Anakin may have not disappeared straight away because he was in turmoil regarding which side of the force he would choose at the end of ROTJ.
There is a theory that any Jedi that is "one" with the force has the ability to die and yet still be alive in the guise of these spirits that are STILL ABLE TO USE THE FORCE in the physical world. (ie possibly in Battle...)
*Obi to Luke in Empire, "if you face Vader, you do it alone, I cannot interfere". (or words to that effect.
I find it interesting that this line is carefully placed the script, in that we obviously assume that because obi wan is 'dead' he cannot do much in the physical world.
While it is possible that he could mean spiritual help, it seems rather a strange line. I.e. "I cant help you cause I’m dead", seems an bit too obvious a line for GL to put in the script. Hinting at a power that we have not seen yet, and probably won't until episode 3.
How would Obi-Wan be able to help Luke any way (other than spiritually)??
"OK LUKE, SNEAK UP BEHIND HIM AND KICK HIS ASS, THEN HIT HIM WITH A BROOM, THEN CHOP HIS TOES OFF!!"
*ALSO AND MORE OBVIOUSLY,
"If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can possible imagine" -
Is it me or has anyone noticed that obi wan does not show any of this great power in any of the three films. Or is it the spiritual power to help Luke learn the force?
If it is why does he ship Luke off to yoda to train as a Jedi?? Why didn't he do it with his "powers"??
There is also the theory that the jedi spirit thing may happen for the first time during episode three, mainly because Vader looks kind of puzzled as to what is going on when Obi Wan dies.
Being a former jedi you'd think he'd know about such a thing, unless it happens after he chooses the dark side.
This could be cause of the shifts of balance in the force.
By definition of balance means equality on both sides.
If the jedi are being wiped out and the power of the dark side is becoming more prominent, the balance would still have to be equal and opposite.
IE, the first of these all powerful Jedi spirits.
That however would leave loop holes in that the three spirits, obi, anakin and yoda (at the end of ROTJ) would probably disappear and never be seen again.
However and more exiting, the dark side would still exist if the balance of the force were to remain in tact, setting up for future films. (I'm guessing?!)
George says that this will be explained in episode three, (with it being the last film lets hope it is).
Watch the commentary if you can, its very insightful and I don’t have it at hand to quote.
mmm... revealed my opinion is! Mmm...
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razorsaces
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
11/17/02 9:43pm
Subject:
RE: ROTJ SE No Bonfire of the Vader?
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Those are some good comments.
A additional thought: What if "Bringing Balance to the Force " is different than anything we've thought of? Maybe at some point in the past the Force got broken and the "balance" is refering to the relationship between the Force and its ability to "communicate" with lifeforms. If that is true, it's possible that the Force powers of the Jedi AND the Sith were much more powerful in the past.
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Bib Fortuna, Twi'lek
Registered:
Jul '99
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Date Posted:
11/18/02 11:12am
Subject:
RE: ROTJ SE No Bonfire of the Vader?
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Lucas has stated that Anakin brings balance to the Force when he disposes of the Emperor in ROTJ, thereby defeating evil's supremacy in the galaxy.
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Delta 5 in the EUDF, armed with a canon cannon
Comic Book Guy: Once again, my underwear has become tangled in a cow catcher.
Homer: Unguarded breakfast, the sweetest taboo.
Ralph: It tastes like burning!
I have more posts than you.
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razorsaces
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
11/18/02 12:12pm
Subject:
RE: ROTJ SE No Bonfire of the Vader?
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Yeah, I figured that had been said. But that brings up a interesting point. Why are the Jedi worried about the whole "Chosen One" thing in Episode 1 if things are going well? Were they already feeling "evil's" influence? And for how long?
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Padme Bra
Title: Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Jul '99
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Date Posted:
11/18/02 12:47pm
Subject:
RE: ROTJ SE No Bonfire of the Vader?
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Once again, no one is denying that now, Vader disappeared. But in the original screenplay and the way it was filmed, and Lucas' own comments say otherwise. So you can interpret it as you wish. When I watch ROTJ I imagine Anakin's body in the suit. You can watch it in your own way.
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ShaakRider
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
11/18/02 4:48pm
Subject:
RE: ROTJ SE No Bonfire of the Vader?
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1. Original script says that Vader didn't disappear.
2. This "he wasn't really dead" conception is ridiculous.
3. Making a funeral for a suit makes no much sense.
4. Trying to burn metal on a pile of wood makes even less sense.
5. Lucas is continuosly changing his conception.
6. Qui-Gon didn't disappear.
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JANGO-FOOT
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
11/18/02 6:25pm
Subject:
RE: ROTJ SE No Bonfire of the Vader?
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Razorsaces,
Another interesting point about 'balance' of the force is Windus line after he and yoda talk to Obi Wan on Kamino, in Ep 2.
"Our ability to use the force is diminishing" - or words to that effect.
That is a strong supportive of the force being flexible and supports your statement regarding the force being stronger in the past.
Maybe this is why the disappearing spirit thing is developed, possibly by yoda or Obi Wan, or even Qui Gon (rebel developing new techniques etc), because while their ability to use the force is diminishing they need to stay alive, literally, (as the sith did for a thousand generations - "at last we can reveal ourselves to the Jedi...") to train the chosen one/son of the chosen one (Lucas is always talking about parallels) in order to control the balance once more.
They had to live longer than their bodies allowed them to, to complete the training of the child that had not been born (Luke), a child that they knew would be a threat to Vader and Palpatine.
If this were true that could explain Qui Gons voice that yoda hears, (remembering that he wasn't available for new dialogue) still training Anakin or giving him a good telling off, in the ways of the force. As we know Anakin should have been Qui-Gons padawan and could still be training him from beyond the grave.)
Anakin may not have needed to learn this disappearing act. As he was the chosen one, he didn't need to learn this technique, when he died he was at 'one' with the force and automatically became the spirit.
You'd think when the chosen one dies he’d be a tough dude who knew all about the force.
Also this makes sense to the ending of ROTJ, the dead Jedi are still guides to the relatively newly trained Jedi knight Luke. They would also be there when the Jedi order were rebuilt. Luke would not know how to train a Jedi, and as we all know problems with training Jedi’s turn into serious problems afterwards.
Anyone with any theories on that...?
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