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Author	Topic: I Think Star Wars is Losing It's Place In My Heart :-(
eclipseSD Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 11/25/02 2:11pm Subject: RE: I Think Star Wars is Losing It's Place In My Heart :-(
	I just want to clear up something about LOTR. Unlike Lucas, who won't release the original anymore, Jackson releases both the TE and the SE. We don't HAVE to buy the SE, nor do we HAVE to buy the TE. Currently, we can ONLY buy the SE of the OT. From the beginning, Jackson told us that there would be 2 separate dvds. From purely an extra standpoint, the FOTR SE blows AOTC out of the water. Though AOTC does have better picture and sound quality. This hasn't decreased my love for Star Wars one bit. I have a feeling that all my problems with Lucas will be solved in 2006. -----signature----- Totus Tuus
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MikeyKnew Registered: Sep '02	Date Posted: 11/25/02 2:12pm Subject: RE: I Think Star Wars is Losing It's Place In My Heart :-(
	GRIFFON says that the Star Wars DVDs are packed, and then in the next post, DARTH DARK HELMET says that Lucas doesn't have enough time to make anything but a bare bones DVD. How is this consistant? Also, DARK HELMET said: complaining will stop when Lucas does release them. Why is that an excuse? So, eventually Lucas will do something good for the fans? OK, that's really great of him. Did he notice that Peter Jackson is doing three movies in three years, as opposed to Lucas' water mark of three movies in NINE YEARS!! And, somehow Jackson (or his people) are able to find the time to release these perfect DVDs, jam-packed with goodies! (GRIFFON, whether or not can stand watching all the extras is irellevant, that's why they released the regular edition. "Fans" of the movie should all be in love with the Special edition DVD, because it has hours upon hours of viewing pleasure). In regard to Jackson charging people to be a permenant part of this amazing film: I'm pretty sure that Peter Jackson isn't putting that money in his pocket. I'd be willing to bet that he wanted to let the fans do that for free, and the studio (or some other entity) forced him to charge for the labor and extra film. Just a thought, I mean in the world of movies $300 is really nothing. -----signature----- If I said "I have not seen Evil Dead 2, YET." What would that mean to you? I would say you're a cinematic moron! What are you eating under there? Under where?
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Shelley Registered: Sep '01	Date Posted: 11/25/02 8:05pm Subject: RE: I Think Star Wars is Losing It's Place In My Heart :-( - Date Edited: 11/25/02 8:09pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Shelley
	GRIFFON says that the Star Wars DVDs are packed, and then in the next post, DARTH DARK HELMET says that Lucas doesn't have enough time to make anything but a bare bones DVD. How is this consistant? Lucas is writing and preparing to direct Episode III. He has to write down the story. He does not have time to make the DVDs for the OT and give them the treatment he feels they deserve. Also, DARK HELMET said: complaining will stop when Lucas does release them. Why is that an excuse? So, eventually Lucas will do something good for the fans? You act like he does nothing for the fans. He released the TPM and AOTC DVDs, full of extras. He's doing the prequels in the first place, even in the face of whining and complaining and vicious attacks by ungrateful fans. He has released the OT on VHS several times, and people slam him for "greedily milking fans." If he were to do that with the OT on DVD, the same accusation would be leveled at him. The man is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Meanwhile other directors are cut endless amounts of slack. OK, that's really great of him. Did he notice that Peter Jackson is doing three movies in three years, as opposed to Lucas' water mark of three movies in NINE YEARS!! OK, let's look at the vastly different situations, here. Lucas is creating everything from scratch. Jackson already has the story of LOTR set out for him. He does not have to create an entire world the way Lucas is. Plus the sets are going to be mostly the same in each movie, so he can use them over and over without having to build too much new stuff. And, somehow Jackson (or his people) are able to find the time to release these perfect DVDs, jam-packed with goodies! Years after all the movies are done filming. (GRIFFON, whether or not can stand watching all the extras is irellevant, that's why they released the regular edition. "Fans" of the movie should all be in love with the Special edition DVD, because it has hours upon hours of viewing pleasure). Goody for them. I have seen enough of that boring, overrated movie and pompous, overrated director. In regard to Jackson charging people to be a permenant part of this amazing film: I'm pretty sure that Peter Jackson isn't putting that money in his pocket. Yet you condemn Lucas on flimsy evidence. I'd be willing to bet that he wanted to let the fans do that for free, and the studio (or some other entity) forced him to charge for the labor and extra film. Just a thought, I mean in the world of movies $300 is really nothing. $300 is a lot of money to many people, and it seems like a lot to charge to have your name inserted into the credits of a boring, overrated movie. I don't blame Lucas for not catering to fans who don't appreciate what he does do and have latched onto an inferior director such as Jackson because they feel he treats fans better. Why not go over to TheOneRing.net and sing Jackson's praises, if you think he's so wonderful and have so little respect for Lucas? -----signature----- A bona fide conservative exposes Ann Coulter as the liar, bigot, extremist, and hatemonger that she is: http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001939.htm Protect America...impeach Bush.
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Shelley Registered: Sep '01	Date Posted: 11/25/02 8:12pm Subject: RE: I Think Star Wars is Losing It's Place In My Heart :-(
	However, they present a very succinct story, peppered with interesting, likeable characters, who serve to move the plot forward. (Cue heavenly choirs of angels) FOTR has no discernible story, is peppered with characters who are mostly either annoying or dull, and some who are totally useless and do nothing to move the plot forward. -----signature----- A bona fide conservative exposes Ann Coulter as the liar, bigot, extremist, and hatemonger that she is: http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001939.htm Protect America...impeach Bush.
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MikeyKnew Registered: Sep '02	Date Posted: 11/26/02 12:02am Subject: RE: I Think Star Wars is Losing It's Place In My Heart :-(
	Great post Shelley You made loads of good points, let me see what I can say to retort: Am I mistaken or is it understood that George Lucas wrote the story for the entire Star Wars epic (all 9 episodes) a long time ago? I'm not saying that he has an actual book (like Jackson), but I'm pretty sure that he's had the basic story since the 80s at least. So, really all he's doing is adapting it into a screenplay (like Jackson). And, although this sort of counters my last point: adapting a book is in many ways more difficult than writing a new story. When you are writing your own story, you have an open playing field, when you are adapted, you are very restricted. Why does he have time to do the new DVDs, but not the old ones? No one has ever given me a good answer for this. If he is so busy with the filming of Ep.3, why is doing DVD work. A better question: Doesn't anyone work for Gerge Lucas? Does he need to personally oversee every aspect of this? A DVD should be something that he needs to approve, nothing more. Of course director commentary is always nice. I don't want Lucas to release three versions of the OT on dvd, just one or two (with previous knowledge like LOTR) versions, done really well (like LOTR). I don't blame Lucas for not catering to fans who don't appreciate what he does do and have latched onto an inferior director such as Jackson because they feel he treats fans better. Couldn't Lucas cater to some fans then? Couldn't he cater to the fans that treat him well (so to speak)? Who is he catering to? You? Are you actually contending that Lucas is doing the prequels for the fans? If this were true, then wouldn't he listen to some of that criticism that you sited? As far as sets go, I think the movies are pretty similar. They use the same sets in SW too. Coruscant, Naboo, Tatooine. Can we admit at least that it was a great idea for Jackson to film LOTR consecutivly? Goody for them. I have seen enough of that boring, overrated movie and pompous, overrated director. So, you think some of it's overrated huh? Well, to tell you the truth, Lucas is not a great director himself. He's got a great mind for basic story and is able to create amazing characters and a galaxy of cool stuff, but his actual directing skills are nothing, if not elementary,compared to Jackson's. I'll say this for now: forced perspective, Jackson has perfected it, Lucas hardly uses it. There are tons of other reasons, this is just my favorite right now. I'm not condemning Lucas at all (for greediness or any other reason). But, what is your (not-flimsy) evidence to condemn Jackson? Why not go over to TheOneRing.net and sing Jackson's praises, if you think he's so wonderful and have so little respect for Lucas? Give me a break. I do go to [link=www.theonering.net]That Sweet LOTR site[/link] and post about Pete Jackson. I post about his faults too, just as I post about Lucas' faults, while still having tremendous amounts of respect for both of them. -----signature----- If I said "I have not seen Evil Dead 2, YET." What would that mean to you? I would say you're a cinematic moron! What are you eating under there? Under where?
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Shelley Registered: Sep '01	Date Posted: 11/26/02 9:27am Subject: RE: I Think Star Wars is Losing It's Place In My Heart :-( - Date Edited: 11/26/02 9:29am (2 edits total) Edited By: Shelley
	You made loads of good points, let me see what I can say to retort: Am I mistaken or is it understood that George Lucas wrote the story for the entire Star Wars epic (all 9 episodes) a long time ago? Yes, he wrote a kind of outline for it. He didn't write the fleshed-out, detailed story. I'm not saying that he has an actual book (like Jackson), but I'm pretty sure that he's had the basic story since the 80s at least. So, really all he's doing is adapting it into a screenplay (like Jackson). No. He isn't. He is fleshing out an outline. And, although this sort of counters my last point: adapting a book is in many ways more difficult than writing a new story. When you are writing your own story, you have an open playing field, when you are adapted, you are very restricted. I doubt it. It takes a lot less time to adapt an already told story than it does to write one. Jackson had things laid out for him. Lucas did not. Yes, he had a general outline, but he did not have the details, the background, etc. So please don't make it seem like Lucas had it easy and Jackson had it hard. I know you heroize Jackson, but this is getting a little much. Why does he have time to do the new DVDs, but not the old ones? No one has ever given me a good answer for this. Oh, I think many people have, you just dismissed them because their answer wasn't what you wanted to hear. If he is so busy with the filming of Ep.3, why is doing DVD work. He is busy with Episode III and all he had time to do was the DVD for AOTC. When he was busy with AOTC, all he had time to do was the DVD for TPM -- and he did that after much fan demand. He put out a very good DVD, too. A better question: Doesn't anyone work for Gerge Lucas? Does he need to personally oversee every aspect of this? I suppose he doesn't need to, but as it is his story (LOTR is not Jackson's story), he wants to. I don't get it. Lucas is accused of not caring about the story, but then on the other hand he is cursed for wanting to supervise how his films are transferred to DVD. He is only human. He cannot supervise thirty things at once. Considering you applaud Jackson for putting out a huge DVD set long after all his movies are done filming -- in other words, when he has plenty of time -- why not cut Lucas a little slack? Or does only Jackson deserve it? A DVD should be something that he needs to approve, nothing more. And you base this on...? Most directors want to do a heck of a lot more than just "approve" a DVD. Of course director commentary is always nice. A DVD is something he wants to make into a high-quality product. He doesn't want to just give it rubber-stamp approval. He wants to choose what goes on it, what doesn't. If he just rubber-stamped it you'd no doubt be slamming him for not caring what gets put on the DVD: "Can't he supervise it like Jackson?" I don't want Lucas to release three versions of the OT on dvd, just one or two (with previous knowledge like LOTR) versions, done really well (like LOTR). Why should Lucas cater to what you want? Considering how little respect you show him and how little you appreciate what he does, I'm glad he doesn't. And you keep overlooking the point I made. The DVD sets for FOTR came out long after Jackson was done filming all three movies. Couldn't Lucas cater to some fans then? Couldn't he cater to the fans that treat him well (so to speak)? Who is he catering to? You? What? I'm trying to follow your logic. If he's catering to anybody, he's catering to fans who love SW and love the story, and aren't whining at him for not doing things exactly the way they want. Each movie of the SW saga has taken three years to put out. If you don't like it Are you actually contending that Lucas is doing the prequels for the fans? If this were true, then wouldn't he listen to some of that criticism that you sited? I'm not contending anything. Lucas is telling a story. He has said that all he hopes is that people like it. Not all fans think as you do, or as I do, for that matter. If he listened to the fans, he would never get anything done, because they all demand different things of him. As far as sets go, I think the movies are pretty similar. They use the same sets in SW too. Coruscant, Naboo, Tatooine. And Lucas has to write the story for each movie. Can we admit at least that it was a great idea for Jackson to film LOTR consecutivly? It's not a matter of it being a great idea. It's a matter of Jackson having that luxury. Lucas did not. If you want to think of it as a great idea in order to continue your determination to heroize Jackson and deride Lucas -- an entirely different filmmaker making an entirely different trilogy -- that's your prerogative. I do not have to "admit" it. So, you think some of it's overrated huh? I think all of it is overrated. Well, to tell you the truth, Lucas is not a great director himself. That isn't the truth, it's your opinion. And Lucas isn't the greatest director in the world, but he's a darn sight better than Peter "Shaky Camera/Overused Swoop Shot/Overused Slo-Mo/Overused Extra Closeups" Jackson. He's got a great mind for basic story and is able to create amazing characters and a galaxy of cool stuff, but his actual directing skills are nothing, if not elementary,compared to Jackson's. Actually, his directing skills are head and shoulders above Jackson's. I'll say this for now: forced perspective, Jackson has perfected it, Lucas hardly uses it. There are tons of other reasons, this is just my favorite right now. What's forced perspective? And even if Jackson has perfected it, so what? Lucas has an entirely different directing style from Jackson, and thank all applicable deities for that. Lucas never uses slo-mo, for instance, which added a half-hour extra to the already overlong FOTR. There are tons of other reasons I prefer Lucas; that's just my favorite right now. I'm not condemning Lucas at all (for greediness or any other reason). But, what is your (not-flimsy) evidence to condemn Jackson? Condemn him? I'm criticizing the man. You're the one condemning Lucas for not doing what you want. And my evidence is no flimsier than yours. Give me a break. I do go to That Sweet LOTR site and post about Pete Jackson. I post about his faults too, When? just as I post about Lucas' faults, while still having tremendous amounts of respect for both of them. You have respect for Lucas? Could have fooled me. You're needlessly comparing him to another, completely different director and slamming him for not doing what Jackson had the luxury of doing. -----signature----- A bona fide conservative exposes Ann Coulter as the liar, bigot, extremist, and hatemonger that she is: http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001939.htm Protect America...impeach Bush.
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MikeyKnew Registered: Sep '02	Date Posted: 11/26/02 1:25pm Subject: RE: I Think Star Wars is Losing It's Place In My Heart :-(
	Man, I love this thread! Just to clarify right now: -I am really enjoying your posts. Just because I don't agree with some of what you say, doesn't mean that I don't respect the fact that you are coming up with great arguments. -I love Star Wars. I have spent a total of 29 entire days of my life, camping in line to see these movies, and I will spend 10 more days when Episode 3 comes out. Not to mention the countless time/money spent on videos, DVDs, and return visits to the cinema. -90% of the time, I find myself arguing your side of this debate. I seem to be surrounded by people who think Star Wars is not worthy of praise or fans, and I have to defend it all the time. I do this happily, as I am a fan! OK, back to the arena I doubt it. It takes a lot less time to adapt an already told story than it does to write one. Jackson had things laid out for him. Lucas did not. Yes, he had a general outline, but he did not have the details, the background, etc. So please don't make it seem like Lucas had it easy and Jackson had it hard. I know you heroize Jackson, but this is getting a little much. However, when adapting a book that has been so well-loved by two generations, you are very restricted in the changes that you can make. While Lucas will need to construct answers to ciematic problems in his own story (which he can alter at will), Jackson will need to solve these same problems, within the frame of the original work. This sounds easy, but in actuality it is a daunting task. You also have to remember that Jackson is trying to please fans of LOTR (the book), who owe him no allegience and therefore do not cut him slack, as you said. OK, I'm at school right now, so I'll have to answer the rest of your questions later today. Again, thanks for making these boards rule! -----signature----- If I said "I have not seen Evil Dead 2, YET." What would that mean to you? I would say you're a cinematic moron! What are you eating under there? Under where?
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Shelley Registered: Sep '01	Date Posted: 11/26/02 3:27pm Subject: RE: I Think Star Wars is Losing It's Place In My Heart :-(
	Just to clarify right now: -I am really enjoying your posts. Just because I don't agree with some of what you say, doesn't mean that I don't respect the fact that you are coming up with great arguments. Thanks. -I love Star Wars. I have spent a total of 29 entire days of my life, camping in line to see these movies, and I will spend 10 more days when Episode 3 comes out. Not to mention the countless time/money spent on videos, DVDs, and return visits to the cinema. All of which you freely gave. Lucas doesn't owe you because of your choice. -90% of the time, I find myself arguing your side of this debate. I seem to be surrounded by people who think Star Wars is not worthy of praise or fans, and I have to defend it all the time. I do this happily, as I am a fan! I'm glad to hear it. However, when adapting a book that has been so well-loved by two generations,[ you are very restricted in the changes that you can make. That didn't stop Jackson from making them. SW has been well-loved for more than two decades. Not as long as the LOTR books, but pretty long. Part of the reason some fans got so angry over the prequels was because they weren't what they thought they "should" be. They lost sight of the fact that SW is Lucas's story and he can tell it however he darn well pleases. I don't know if they are as possessive of SW as LOTR fans were of LOTR, but it's close enough for government work. While Lucas will need to construct answers to ciematic problems in his own story (which he can alter at will), Jackson will need to solve these same problems, within the frame of the original work. This sounds easy, but in actuality it is a daunting task. So is what Lucas does. For one thing, he has to make the two trilogies line cleanly up. Every time he does something that doesn't appear to be consistent with the OT, people jump all over it. Not to mention he has to deal with the media that is out to crucify him, that has been wanting to knock him off his perch for 20-odd years, and, as it happens, is using LOTR and Peter Jackson to do it. I don't think the extravagantly partisan reaction the media had to LOTR was an accident. Here was the first real, viable weapon the media had to dethrone SW -- a fantasy story, a trilogy no less, beloved by as many people worldwide, if not more, than SW. It was coming out at roughly the same time as the SW prequels. Hence we have movie reviews, articles, and editorials (!!!) proclaiming Jackson the new Lucas, only "without the ego" and with more talent, and saying that if SW fans knew what was good for them they'd leave SW for LOTR, which has "real passion," and we have online petitions calling for Jackson to take over Episode III, among other blatant elevating of LOTR over SW and Jackson over Lucas. You also have to remember that Jackson is trying to please fans of LOTR (the book), who owe him no allegience and therefore do not cut him slack, as you said. And you have to remember that Lucas is trying to please fans of SW, who feel they own the saga, and therefore do not cut him slack. -----signature----- A bona fide conservative exposes Ann Coulter as the liar, bigot, extremist, and hatemonger that she is: http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001939.htm Protect America...impeach Bush.
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Darth Dark Helmet Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Dec '99	Date Posted: 11/26/02 3:33pm Subject: RE: I Think Star Wars is Losing It's Place In My Heart :-(
	Peter Jackson may be putting out three movies in three years, but he's been working on them since about 98 at the latest. The reason he's able to spend the time to do things is because all he has left between the movies is post production. All the writing and fimling is done. All he has to do is supervise the effects work and then edit them. Lucas for episode three has to help scout locations, cast the movie, write the movie, work out the screenplay, begin pre-production, oversee the design work, then film the movie, and then he can start on the post production. I would think it is during this time when he'll finally have time to startthe OT DVDs. -----signature----- When dealing with genocide, you must ask yourself, "What would Hitler do?" And then, you know, do the opposite. Milwaukee Brewers- NL WILD CARD!
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MikeyKnew Registered: Sep '02	Date Posted: 11/26/02 4:58pm Subject: RE: I Think Star Wars is Losing It's Place In My Heart :-(
	Wow! Good job again. Why does he have time to do the new DVDs, but not the old ones? No one has ever given me a good answer for this. Oh, I think many people have, you just dismissed them because their answer wasn't what you wanted to hear. A perfect example of someone not giving me an answer. I suppose he doesn't need to, but as it is his story (LOTR is not Jackson's story), he wants to. I don't get it. Lucas is accused of not caring about the story, but then on the other hand he is cursed for wanting to supervise how his films are transferred to DVD. He is only human. He cannot supervise thirty things at once. Considering you applaud Jackson for putting out a huge DVD set long after all his movies are done filming -- in other words, when he has plenty of time -- why not cut Lucas a little slack? Or does only Jackson deserve it? I'm not cursing him, and I never said that he doesn't care about the story. I said that he is not telling the story effectively in the PT. I am (as the greedy little fan that I am) requesting that he hire some professionals to do most of the work for the DVDs, that way, when Mr.Lucas gets some time, he can oversee the rest. A DVD is something he wants to make into a high-quality product. He doesn't want to just give it rubber-stamp approval. He wants to choose what goes on it, what doesn't. If he just rubber-stamped it you'd no doubt be slamming him for not caring what gets put on the DVD: "Can't he supervise it like Jackson?" Couldn't he hire someone who would then suggest these things, and Lucas could approve or disapprove these suggestions. Wouldn't this make for less work, therefore quicker DVDs? Also, see above answer. Why should Lucas cater to what you want? Considering how little respect you show him and how little you appreciate what he does, I'm glad he doesn't. I'm not asking him to cater to what I want. I just want to know: Who is he catering to? Please don't site the B.O. on this, because I don't argue the fact that the OT was brilliant and that SW has die-hard fans everywhere because of it. And you keep overlooking the point I made. The DVD sets for FOTR came out long after Jackson was done filming all three movies. I wasn't overlooking that point. That is why I said that it was a great idea for Jackson to shoot all three films in sequence, freeing his time to do things like work on publicity and DVDs. Dark Helmet, this should answer your queiry as well. What? I'm trying to follow your logic. If he's catering to anybody, he's catering to fans who love SW and love the story, and aren't whining at him for not doing things exactly the way they want. Each movie of the SW saga has taken three years to put out. If you don't like it So, he's catering to those who love everything he does? Sounds like a tough job. I'm not contending anything. Lucas is telling a story. He has said that all he hopes is that people like it. Not all fans think as you do, or as I do, for that matter. If he listened to the fans, he would never get anything done, because they all demand different things of him. Great point! So, just to be sure I follow you here: Lucas is ignoring the fans? As far as sets go, I think the movies are pretty similar. They use the same sets in SW too. Coruscant, Naboo, Tatooine. And Lucas has to write the story for each movie. Side stepping the point that you brought up in the first place just proves that it was weak to begin with. It's not a matter of it being a great idea. It's a matter of Jackson having that luxury. Lucas did not. Please don't tell me that you're crying poor filmmaker without any funds about George Lucas. If you want to think of it as a great idea in order to continue your determination to heroize Jackson and deride Lucas -- an entirely different filmmaker making an entirely different trilogy -- that's your prerogative. I do not have to "admit" it. So, in your last retort when you said that Lucas didn't have the luxury to do it, were you saying that he didn't have the luxury to to something that was a bad idea? That isn't the truth, it's your opinion. And Lucas isn't the greatest director in the world, but he's a darn sight better than Peter "Shaky Camera/Overused Swoop Shot/Overused Slo-Mo/Overused Extra Closeups" Jackson. There are shots in AOTC that are embarrasing. How about a fast zoom on the driver 9an insignificant character) of an attacking vehicle? I think all of it is overrated. To quote a wise man: "That isn't the truth, it's your opinion." But Star Wars is rated just right? Actually, his directing skills are head and shoulders above Jackson's. Reasons? What's forced perspective? And even if Jackson has perfected it, so what? Lucas has an entirely different directing style from Jackson, and thank all applicable deities for that. Lucas never uses slo-mo, for instance, which added a half-hour extra to the already overlong FOTR. There are tons of other reasons I prefer Lucas; that's just my favorite right now. Forced perspective is a technique in which something will be placed in a strange proximity to something else on screen, to create the illusion of size. EX: Hobbits (played by normal sized people) next to Elves (who are made to look taller). This allows the director to avoid excessive green/blue screen work (see: Lucas!) and excessive CGI (see: both directors). As to slow motion, this is a worthless argment. I think that slow motion adds drama and pulls the audience into the moment, you obviously don't see it that way. PS-the slow motion does not make the movie longer. Without the use of slow motion, they would use more shots, making the movie close to the same length. The slow motion is used to get a point across in one shot, that may otherwise take three shots. Condemn him? I'm criticizing the man. You're the one condemning Lucas for not doing what you want. And my evidence is no flimsier than yours. You shouldn't argue terms that you brought up: "Yet you condemn Lucas on flimsy evidence." Give me a break. I do go to That Sweet LOTR site and post about Pete Jackson. I post about his faults too, When? Are you asking me when I post on [link=www.theonering.net]The One Ring[/link]? You have respect for Lucas? Could have fooled me. You're needlessly comparing him to another, completely different director and slamming him for not doing what Jackson had the luxury of doing. Again, see my answer as to the definition of luxury in film. Also, and I quote: "He's got a great mind for basic story and is able to create amazing characters and a galaxy of cool stuff." All of which you freely gave. Lucas doesn't owe you because of your choice. I wasn't looking for anything from Lucas, I was letting you know that I am a fan. I am not an obligationist. SW has been well-loved for more than two decades. Not as long as the LOTR books, but pretty long. Part of the reason some fans got so angry over the prequels was because they weren't what they thought they "should" be. They lost sight of the fact that SW is Lucas's story and he can tell it however he darn well pleases. I don't know if they are as possessive of SW as LOTR fans were of LOTR, but it's close enough for government work. This is weak, I know that you can do better. I don't think the extravagantly partisan reaction the media had to LOTR was an accident. Here was the first real, viable weapon the media had to dethrone SW -- a fantasy story, a trilogy no less, beloved by as many people worldwide, if not more, than SW. It was coming out at roughly the same time as the SW prequels. Hence we have movie reviews, articles, and editorials (!!!) proclaiming Jackson the new Lucas, only "without the ego" and with more talent, and saying that if SW fans knew what was good for them they'd leave SW for LOTR, which has "real passion," and we have online petitions calling for Jackson to take over Episode III, among other blatant elevating of LOTR over SW and Jackson over Lucas. Do you think that there is some sort of media conspiracy theory against Star Wars and George Lucas? Would this account for it's lack of coverage in the entertainment realm of media? Or, it's poor box office performance? Wait a second. . . And you have to remember that Lucas is trying to please fans of SW, who feel they own the saga, and therefore do not cut him slack. I think that you are cuttin enough slack for him all by yourself, here on this thread. -----signature----- If I said "I have not seen Evil Dead 2, YET." What would that mean to you? I would say you're a cinematic moron! What are you eating under there? Under where?
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Shelley Registered: Sep '01	Date Posted: 11/26/02 6:32pm Subject: RE: I Think Star Wars is Losing It's Place In My Heart :-(
	A perfect example of someone not giving me an answer. I gave you an answer. You dismissed it. I'm not cursing him, and I never said that he doesn't care about the story. I said that he is not telling the story effectively in the PT. In your opinion. I am (as the greedy little fan that I am) requesting that he hire some professionals to do most of the work for the DVDs, that way, when Mr.Lucas gets some time, he can oversee the rest. And obviously he does not want to do that, he wants to supervise the DVD. I applaud him for caring that much about what will be the most readily accessible format of his movie. Couldn't he hire someone who would then suggest these things, and Lucas could approve or disapprove these suggestions. Wouldn't this make for less work, therefore quicker DVDs? Also, see above answer. I suppose he could, but he doesn't want to. He is not obligated to because you think he should. I'm not asking him to cater to what I want. Yes you are. I just want to know: Who is he catering to? Please don't site the B.O. on this, because I don't argue the fact that the OT was brilliant and that SW has die-hard fans everywhere because of it. I think I answered your question. If he's catering to anyone, it's to the fans who actually appreciate what he does and love the saga even if it wasn't exactly what they thought it would be. I wasn't overlooking that point. That is why I said that it was a great idea for Jackson to shoot all three films in sequence, freeing his time to do things like work on publicity and DVDs. Dark Helmet, this should answer your queiry as well. I feel like I'm going in circles. Jackson had the story laid out for him already. Lucas did not. He had to write the story, cast the movies, scout locations, etc., etc., etc. So, he's catering to those who love everything he does? Sounds like a tough job. Don't put words in my mouth or twist around what I say to support the conclusion you've already made. IF he is catering to anyone, it's to fans who love the movies and appreciate what he does -- even if they don't necessarily like all of it. Great point! So, just to be sure I follow you here: Lucas is ignoring the fans? Oh, I wouldn't say ignoring, exactly. Maybe tuning out the shriller, nastier ones. Side stepping the point that you brought up in the first place just proves that it was weak to begin with. Actually, Lucas probably couldn't use the same sets, since the movies are set on so many different planets. AOTC did have a couple of the same planets as TPM, but it also had new planets, and new parts of the old planets. Plus, unlike LOTR, it was not set on Earth, in places where you could readily use habitats. Please don't tell me that you're crying poor filmmaker without any funds about George Lucas. Another deliberate misinterpretation. I am not talking about funds here, although Lucas doesn't have limitless funds like you no doubt think he does. Jackson had the luxury of the story already being laid out for him, as well as a movie being set on Earth (albeit Earth in a different time) so sets could be re-used. Lucas did not. So, in your last retort when you said that Lucas didn't have the luxury to do it, were you saying that he didn't have the luxury to to something that was a bad idea? You're overlooking that I said it wasn't a matter of it being a good idea. "Good idea" and "bad idea" don't even apply here. Jackson had that luxury, which you heroize him for although he doesn't deserve to be heroized for it. Lucas did NOT have that luxury. There are shots in AOTC that are embarrasing. How about a fast zoom on the driver 9an insignificant character) of an attacking vehicle? I didn't find it embarrassing. To quote a wise man: "That isn't the truth, it's your opinion." Hence my use of "I think." But Star Wars is rated just right? In my opinion, yes. Reasons? He doesn't rely on gimmicks like overused swoop shots, slo mo, and extra closeups to try and make scenes more important. He gets good performances out of his actors, with a few notable exceptions, even when they are working with bluescreen. He puts in wonderful, subtle details that provide foreshadowing -- all the Vaderisms in Jake Lloyd's and Hayden Christensen's performances. And he listens to actors' suggestions as to how scenes should be played out. Forced perspective is a technique in which something will be placed in a strange proximity to something else on screen, to create the illusion of size. Oh. Kind of like how Lucas subtly emphasized Hayden's height in his scenes with Padme and Watto? As to slow motion, this is a worthless argment. I think that slow motion adds drama and pulls the audience into the moment, you obviously don't see it that way. No. I don't. PS-the slow motion does not make the movie longer. Without the use of slow motion, they would use more shots, making the movie close to the same length. The slow motion is used to get a point across in one shot, that may otherwise take three shots. Oh. So it doesn't make the movie longer, it just makes it more boring and pretentious. You shouldn't argue terms that you brought up: "Yet you condemn Lucas on flimsy evidence." And you used the term after me. So what? Are you asking me when I post on The One Ring? I guess. I haven't seen any of your other posts here. Again, see my answer as to the definition of luxury in film. You chose to misinterpret it. Luxury does not necessarily mean money, and I think you know it. Also, and I quote: "He's got a great mind for basic story and is able to create amazing characters and a galaxy of cool stuff." Then you slam him for not catering to what you want, using specious comparisons to Peter Jackson in order to do it. I wasn't looking for anything from Lucas, I was letting you know that I am a fan. I am not an obligationist. You act like it. This is weak, I know that you can do better. No, it isn't weak. Sorry if it's not what you wanted me to say. Do you think that there is some sort of media conspiracy theory against Star Wars and George Lucas? No. I do think there is a bias. Would this account for it's lack of coverage in the entertainment realm of media? Or, it's poor box office performance? Wait a second. . . It would explain the media slamming it at every opportunity (while at the same time exploiting it for its own publicity purposes) and proclaiming it a box office failure because it made only (!) 300 mil, and gloating about "Spiderman" outgrossing it. I think that you are cuttin enough slack for him all by yourself, here on this thread. How dare I. -----signature----- A bona fide conservative exposes Ann Coulter as the liar, bigot, extremist, and hatemonger that she is: http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001939.htm Protect America...impeach Bush.
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GRIFFON Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 11/26/02 8:12pm Subject: RE: I Think Star Wars is Losing It's Place In My Heart :-(
	This discussion has turned in to just an argument between two people...
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MikeyKnew Registered: Sep '02	Date Posted: 11/26/02 8:18pm Subject: RE: I Think Star Wars is Losing It's Place In My Heart :-(
	First off, may I please invite others to join in this debate. Secondly, there seems to be an overarching point to my posts that I have not made clear for you, and it is this: I do not want George Lucas to cater to me. I want him to listen to his fans, the ones that made him rich, the ones that are secure enough in their love of the films to offer some criticism, while still loving the story. OK, to continue: In your opinion. Can we please just state now, for the record, that everything we post on this thread is and has been opinion? This will no longer be a valid argument. And obviously he does not want to do that, he wants to supervise the DVD. I applaud him for caring that much about what will be the most readily accessible format of his movie. Once again, Lucas is doing what he wants. I am not saying that this is the wrong choice. I just want to clarify that he can not do what he wants and what the fans want at the same time; not in this instance. The fans want DVDs! Yes you are. While it is very tempting to use your kindergarden argumentative style on this one and say: "No I'm not," I won't. Instead, I'll try to explain that I represent fans of Star Wars, or the movie-going public, or every-man. Whatever you want to label it, I am not pompous enough to think that George Lucas should care what I (the individual, in a literal sense) want. However, when I see that there are many others who wish for the same things that I do, I feel that I can absract my views, and use the word "I" to represent a portion of the public's feelings. I think I answered your question. If he's catering to anyone, it's to the fans who actually appreciate what he does and love the saga even if it wasn't exactly what they thought it would be. See answer to next point. . . Don't put words in my mouth or twist around what I say to support the conclusion you've already made. IF he is catering to anyone, it's to fans who love the movies and appreciate what he does -- even if they don't necessarily like all of it. How is this not catering to the fans that will love him no matter what he does. In essence, as far as these fans are concerned, no catering is necessary. Oh, I wouldn't say ignoring, exactly. Maybe tuning out the shriller, nastier ones. Like me? You mean, he's tuning out anyone who offers criticism that goes contrary to what he wants to do? I feel like I'm going in circles. Jackson had the story laid out for him already. Lucas did not. He had to write the story, cast the movies, scout locations, etc., etc., etc. Sorry to let you go in circles like that . My point: couldn't Lucas have written the stories before he started production on the films, as he funded the movies himself, he wouldn't need to worry about the studio breathing down his neck, and Star Wars is an established hit, he wouldn't have a tough time finding additional money if need be. Actually, Lucas probably couldn't use the same sets, since the movies are set on so many different planets. AOTC did have a couple of the same planets as TPM, but it also had new planets, and new parts of the old planets. Plus, unlike LOTR, it was not set on Earth, in places where you could readily use habitats. Lucas has used many of the same sets. Also, LOTR is set on earth, yes. . .Middle Earth. This is a place as different from the Earth that you and I live in as Naboo, Tatooine, Coruscant, Endor, I could go on. . . Another tidbit: Lucas doesn't scout his own locations, he hires people to do it, and he approves the choices. Another deliberate misinterpretation. I am not talking about funds here, although Lucas doesn't have limitless funds like you no doubt think he does. Jackson had the luxury of the story already being laid out for him, as well as a movie being set on Earth (albeit Earth in a different time) so sets could be re-used. Lucas did not. Did Lucas not have the choice to give himself that luxury, again: couldn't he have finished writing the movies before he began production? Also, wasn't it Lucas' choice to do the movies on his own dime? You're overlooking that I said it wasn't a matter of it being a good idea. "Good idea" and "bad idea" don't even apply here. Jackson had that luxury, which you heroize him for although he doesn't deserve to be heroized for it. Lucas did NOT have that luxury. See above response, AND: I am not heroizing (is that even a word) Peter Jackson, I am remarking on his talent. I am trying to show an example of a director who gets it, and is in touch with his audience. I am illustrating Jackson's ability to effectively convey a story. I didn't find it embarrassing. Well, it's a good thing that Lucas is making these movies for you then. But Star Wars is rated just right? In my opinion, yes. And what rating would that be (that is just right)? He doesn't rely on gimmicks like overused swoop shots, slo mo, and extra closeups to try and make scenes more important. He gets good performances out of his actors, with a few notable exceptions, even when they are working with bluescreen. He puts in wonderful, subtle details that provide foreshadowing -- all the Vaderisms in Jake Lloyd's and Hayden Christensen's performances. And he listens to actors' suggestions as to how scenes should be played out. Slow motion is not a gimmick, but we've agreed to move past this point, right? What is a swoop shot, and how is it different than every shot that Lucas ever uses to introduce a new planet/setting? There are close ups in all of the SW films, please be more specific. In the end, technique is up to the director, none is better then the other, the final out come is what the audience brings away with them. It seems to me that I came away with more enjoyment from LOTR than the PT (so far). This is insane! Lucas ruins good actors. Natalie Portman was given such horrific dialogue in AOTC, that it would be impossible to pull off an effective performance. Are you telling me that you think Jake Lloyd's performance was great? I'm pretty sure that we are not going to agree on this point at all. The performances in the PT are aweful in my eyes. With the exception of Ewan McGregor, who is decent (and he's normally "knock-your-socks-off" amazing). The performances in LOTR are far better than any in the PT, name any two actors to compare and you will hopefully find that the performance in LOTR was far superior, due in part to Jackson's direction, a better script with better dialogue, and just better casting. Christopher Lee is way better than himself!!! If you watched the LOTR special edition DVD (in stores now for $24.99, a bargain!!!), you would know that Pete Jackson took loads of suggestions from his actors, Ian McKellan especially. Oh. Kind of like how Lucas subtly emphasized Hayden's height in his scenes with Padme and Watto? No, Watto is computer generated, that's not forced perspective, that's animation. The scenes with Padme are very basic forced perspective (see also: Christiansen stood on a box to appear taller). It would be like saying: "Turning off the stove makes me a firefighter." Oh. So it doesn't make the movie longer, it just makes it more boring and pretentious. In what way is slow-motion pretentious? And you used the term after me. So what? I used them, because you introduced them. I was trying to debate on your level, with your terms. You shouldn't argue the use of them when you brought them to the table. I guess. I haven't seen any of your other posts here. It's really easy to see my other posts on here: 1. Click on my username. 2. Scroll down. 3. Click View Latest Posts 4. Click the title of the thread you are interested in. 5. Read and enjoy. You chose to misinterpret it. Luxury does not necessarily mean money, and I think you know it. See my statement above regarding Lucas' luxury of writing. Then you slam him for not catering to what you want, using specious comparisons to Peter Jackson in order to do it. Not slam, critisize. I have made it clear that I love Star Wars. I am just hashing out some complaints, from a fan (myself) who likes the movies, faults-and-all. I guess that means that Lucas is catering to me right? You act like it. How so? close enough for government work. This is weak. It would explain the media slamming it at every opportunity (while at the same time exploiting it for its own publicity purposes) and proclaiming it a box office failure because it made only (!) 300 mil, and gloating about "Spiderman" outgrossing it. I'm not sure that gloating is the right word. I feel that the media (and much of the public) was happy to see a new powerhouse movie franchise on the block. It makes for healthy competion, where there has been such a lack of it. How dare I. How dare I criticize. -----signature----- If I said "I have not seen Evil Dead 2, YET." What would that mean to you? I would say you're a cinematic moron! What are you eating under there? Under where?
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MobartZmuda Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 11/26/02 9:00pm Subject: RE: I Think Star Wars is Losing It's Place In My Heart :-(
	When Peter Jackson writes his OWN epic science fiction story that rivals the likes of GL's Star Wars or Tolkien's LOTR, then perhaps he will be worthy of all this admiration. But as of right now, he is just an over-rated smuck. It's like praising the latest director of a Shakespearean play. He only appears great because of the material he is using. As for why the OT hasn't been released on DVD yet--GL has said he didn't think the DVD industry was advanced enough yet and he didn't think he'd be happy with the quality (but he said this like 2-3 years ago).
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CrAsHcHaOs Registered: May '99	Date Posted: 11/27/02 12:57am Subject: RE: I Think Star Wars is Losing It's Place In My Heart :-( - Date Edited: 11/27/02 12:58am (1 edits total) Edited By: CrAsHcHaOs
	Both Shelley and MikeyKnew bring good points, however I'm going to have to agree with MikeyKnew here, simply because Shelley is coming off as very arrogant and seems to be giving the "Talk-to-the-hand" treatment to MikeyKnew while he is simply trying to have a friendly argument. In fact, I'm getting the impression that MikeyKnew really does genuinely respect both LOTR and Star Wars, while it SEEMS like Shelley is using Star Wars as a way to vent her dislike for Peter Jackson and LOTR while pretending to be defending it. I don't think she really likes Star Wars at all. I don't mean any disrespect, but that's just the way I'm seeing this very good argument. I love the LOTR universe and Star Wars universe quite equally, btw, so I am talking from a non-biased POV. -----signature----- Always have been proud to be an American, and always will be!!! McCain/Palin '08
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