Jedi Council Forums - Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)

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Author	Topic: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
Master_Keralys Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 12/4/08 1:03pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Responding from conversation that started here. Dingo - I think you're right about the Code. Frankly, I was probably one of the mods who broke the code in short order after it was posted. That was a rough spot for us: I was just transitioning into the mod role, getting a handle on it, and made a lot of mistakes early on. I still do, sometimes. That's the thing I see, though: we can either take those and let them push us to just set it all aside, or we can keep working on it. I would very much take the latter in any case. And I would gladly take PMs from you when you have suggestions or think I've messed up. I may or may not agree, but I would gladly hear you out in any case. I do agree that leading by example is the way to go, and it's something I'm working on. I believe the other mods are as well; I'd speak for them but our mind meld isn't that effective, yet. We need good, solid posters who will follow that lead, too, though, and we need people who aren't quite as bitter about LFL and some of its decisions - because frankly, that's part of the problem, too. Lit, I think, feels like it's gotten burned by the very people it supports a few too many times, and I think people are simply upset by that. The changing attitudes toward canon, as well as a few other areas (see below), continue to make it difficult for some of these fans to invest without some degree of bitterness. How do we fix that? This is what I wrestle with whenever I ponder how to make Lit better, and I don't have a good answer yet. If you do, I'll hear it gladly. Rob - I think while we disagree sometimes where the line is, we can agree that it does get crossed. I'll admit that I at times miss stuff, and I sometimes scratch my head and go, "Hmm, iffy on that one," and make a judgment call one way or the other, which I usually think is right a week later, but sometimes don't. If I saw those quotes you posted and left them at the time, I probably wouldn't do so now. I honestly don't really remember. I do think the fact that the discussion on O66 was a lot less book-focused and a lot more impact-focused than it perhaps should have been. That's something I think we can find ways to avoid in the future - by as mods taking the initiative to start a spoilers-allowed thread for that sort of discussion to keep it clear of the book thread itself. The flip side of that is that we don't really have those issues with most books that come out. In most cases the discussion does center on the events of the book and everything going on plotwise. That should make the point that Karen Traviss and her books are a fairly touchy point in Lit (as if we didn't know that already). The question is how we deal with that. People have the right to dislike her books, of course, but they also have a right to be bothered by what they perceive - rightly or wrongly - as her attitude toward them. How that fits into Lit exactly, I don't know. Probably not that much. How a discussion of how her attitude toward canon impacts Star Wars literature - for good or ill, we can't deny that her attitude differs a fair bit from Denning's - fits into Lit is rather different, though, and I think it's an important discussion to have. So while we need to let book threads be book threads and deal with canon implications elsewhere, because they are important to the whole basis of Lit, I think it's time to come out and admit that a huge number of our ongoing problems in Lit come down to trying to figure out how to deal with the KT situation. It's sticky. It's messy. We try to mostly just avoid it. The 3 million isn't even an allowed point of discussion, because people's feelings are so hot there. The fans have fired at her, she's fired back, and it's been smoldering ever since. Great. We know all that. Now what? A variation on the idea I mentioned in the other thread regarding author discussion is under serious consideration right now. Exactly what it might look like, we don't know, but we are very seriously considering taking a step that direction. -----signature----- God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself. The craziest story ever told. The truest.
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rhonderoo Title: Former Head Admin Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 12/4/08 1:49pm Subject: RE: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	That should make the point that Karen Traviss and her books are a fairly touchy point in Lit (as if we didn't know that already). The question is how we deal with that. People have the right to dislike her books, of course, but they also have a right to be bothered by what they perceive - rightly or wrongly - as her attitude toward them. How that fits into Lit exactly, I don't know. Probably not that much. How a discussion of how her attitude toward canon impacts Star Wars literature - for good or ill, we can't deny that her attitude differs a fair bit from Denning's - fits into Lit is rather different, though, and I think it's an important discussion to have. So while we need to let book threads be book threads and deal with canon implications elsewhere, because they are important to the whole basis of Lit, I think it's time to come out and admit that a huge number of our ongoing problems in Lit come down to trying to figure out how to deal with the KT situation. It's sticky. It's messy. We try to mostly just avoid it. The 3 million isn't even an allowed point of discussion, because people's feelings are so hot there. The fans have fired at her, she's fired back, and it's been smoldering ever since. I still think the issue is taking something like her attitude towards canon (which is presumptive at best) personal, rather than stating your views objectively, and somewhat politely and then moving on. There is a way to do this, and the Lit forum used to be much better at it. KT is not the only author that has been a maverick or changed things, and I doubt she can do all that without prior approval from someone. And KT is not the only author/VIP this has happened to, she's just been one of the authors (right or wrong) that fought back, honestly. Like Randy Stradley, editor at Dark Horse and very important person that posted his feelings on the way some Lit posters attack VIPs before, and even left the forums after one of his artists were insulted. I know he has returned to discussions since then, very cautiously, but believe me... his feelings on Lit are somewhere near the same. And the point I've always tried to make is that it doesn't have to be that way. Just like Rob said earlier, the continual jabs and repetition of a beef someone has over something like canon "implications" or how their character was treated, etc. - until us regular posters are so sick of hearing this opinion ad nauseum in almost every thread that we just don't come back. And a lot of this is not necessarily about one author, there are many things that can contribute to fan irritation over things like canon, and there are many hands that touch what we read before we read it. To lump everything on one person is probably not what really happens. I know mods can't control how people feel and how personal they do take something like "canon messups", but you can control how you allow them to express it. And how many times they express it. -----signature----- DT421 FYI: You don't deal with me. I deal with you. Damned right the Jedi's fire has gone out of the universe. I was the bad-ass Class C extinguisher who snuffed them. - @darthvader (Darth Vader on Twitter)
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mrsvos Registered: Nov '05	Date Posted: 12/4/08 5:18pm Subject: RE: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	This is a bit of a PM I sent to a couple of MODs on my feeling on this - I used to lurk on TFN in '98 because I didn't know anyone else who was into EU and wanted to read book discussions. I finally joined, as you can see, much later. But lately there are no discussions, just "I've read every SW book ever written and they all suck." Members complain about YJCC, but I spend most of my time there because I actually have a good time. When I do post in a book thread, and ask a question, it is completely ignored. Perhaps there should be 2 book discussion threads - one for people who actually want to talk about the book and one for those who just want to bitch. I have fun at EU Community because everyone is so positive there, but there's not much book discussion. As a bookstore manager, I have moderated bookclubs, so hopefully my input matters, but as a book discussion group, the Lit. Forum is not functioning. The book threads just seem to be a free for all. which, in RL, is not possible. Thank You! I'd like to see the book discussion threads run at least loosely like a book club book discussion. I'd also like to see some common courtesy, don't quote my post with a snarky comment, ask for me for some clarification, or give me a little background as to why you feel differently. -----signature----- It's not so much emotional baggage, as it's a bunch of overstuffed black hefty bags in the trunk of my car.
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Master_Keralys Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 12/4/08 9:03pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Rhonda - I'm with you, there. The one thing I have a tough time as a moderator dealing with is the issue of people posting the same negative opinion over and over again. While I agree that it's harmful - and so is the same positive thing over and over, just less obviously so and perhaps to a somewhat lesser extent - it gets tricky. Do we say, "Okay, you can only post the same negative thing 5 times, after that it's a ban," or what? Karen Traviss is, you are quite right, not the only "maverick." The other primary examples, however, have taken about as much flack as she has for it, but have chosen not to respond in the same way. That says something about the authors as well as about the fans. And I think it's disingenuous to assume that the problem is all the fans. There have been cases where posts Karen has made on her blog, etc. that have come across as direct attacks on TFN people. She may or may not have meant them as such, but they have come across that way. (I have no issue with her.) And she's perfectly within her rights to do so. But to expect no repercussions from that, and to expect people not to be angered by that is horribly unreasonable. Moreover, while I agree that Karen (or Drew, or anyone else who's made changes to canon) is not the sole agent behind it, in that it was approved and allowed by others, it's disingenuous to say, "Well, it's not their fault because someone else approved it." People have the right to be bothered that the author wanted to do it in the first place. Whether or not they're right or wrong is up for debate. And I will defend quite thoroughly people's right to be bothered by that sort of attitude in things they're spending money on, right or wrong in their opinion - and to express it. How they express it is another issue, and whether they need to harp on it another one yet. But I think we're in agreement there. And on the other hand, I absolutely agree that we need to create a culture where people state their beef and move on. Frankly, it's hard, and I would like some concrete suggestions of how to fix the problem instead of constant restatement of the problem. I get that there is a problem with Lit for a lot of casual users who are being turned off by the constant pessimism. (It turns me off, too. Trust me.) I'm doing what I can to fix it. But I'm just one guy, with a limited amount of time, trying to balance Lit with a physics degree, planning a wedding, doing ministry on my college campus, and occasionally (but only occasionally ) actually trying to have some fun in RL. The same, with some variation of the particulars, is true of all of us. We don't have unlimited processing cycles to spend on how to fix the problems you see in Lit. So I'd really appreciate hearing suggestions for things we can implement, rather than just the same complaints. (And don't get me wrong, I want to hear the complaints. But I'd also like some help finding the solution. ) A huge part of it, I maintain, is that we spend much too much time in OOU discussion instead of IU. As a mod team we're talking about that right now and discussing how to change that. And we're taking it very seriously. You can probably expect to see something coming out of that discussion within the next few weeks. Sorry if that didn't come out as coherent or as gently as I tried to make it; I'm tired and about to go to sleep, and it's my thoughts as I had them. I really do mean it when I say I appreciate the feedback; I'm just trying to make this work and rather tired of a lot of complaining without affirmative suggestions to help, you know? insert weary but still smiling emoticon here mrsvos - I think you've raised some very valid issues. I am sorry that you've had the experience you've had in Lit; I really am. It's that sort of thing that I am fighting really hard to see stop happening. How (in as concrete as terms as possible, please ) do you think we could improve in those areas? Would it be useful to have the book discussion threads guided more actively? How would having it run like a book club discussion look in the forum context? -----signature----- God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself. The craziest story ever told. The truest.
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Robimus Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 12/4/08 11:11pm Subject: RE: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Katana posted: Robimus, criticising one book that people haven't read is a lot better than what we used ot have where people criticised (to put it mildly) the entire EU without reading it at all. The Lit board and EUC used to be a haven for us EU fans, things have gotten a lot better here in regards to the EU. The last prob I saw was regarding authors posting on here, to the extent we were scaring them away, but this has been very well dealt with by the mods on Lit. My understanding(and if its wrong please correct me) is that there used to be significant VIP interaction. Now we certainly have regular visits the Legacy team and Jason Fry, but posts from other VIP's seem to be few and far between. I'm sure that things used to be worse judging by some of the stuff I've read in D4pm's retirement thread, but that certainly doesn't mean everything has been solved. There may not even be a solid solution to the dilemma as I'm sure there is a division amongst users as to if there even is a problem. The problems are not huge, or un-workable in my eyes, but do exist to an extent. Keralys mentioned: Do we say, "Okay, you can only post the same negative thing 5 times, after that it's a ban," or what? So I'd really appreciate hearing suggestions for things we can implement, rather than just the same complaints. I think some suggestions have been made at this point. We have the suggestion of a seperate thread for book discussion and continuity. Some would like a bit of stronger moderation, consider that a suggestion as well. Again, I'm not suggesting that people don't voice there views, like or dislike. It's just how those views are put forward that needs to be looked at. I've had many discussions with DarthUr about what amounts to Karen Traviss and her works in general. DarthUr is very upset with her take on Star Wars, her OOU comments, so on. Yet the discussion never really goes over the line, its respectful enough. He gets his point across very well, I counter with mine and often try to move back to actual story discussion . Maybe the sheer volume of it is an issue. I've simply taken to cutting off these discussions myself of late with a 'We don't see thios the same way. You have yours, I'll have mine " type end. As you mention after a similar POV has been given a couple times there's not much more to say. I'm not going to change anyone's opinion and they are not going to change mine. A bit of discussion about why we each feel the way we do is is very acceptable, but does need to be cut off if it gets repetitive. Sometimes I think A simple "Stay on Target" reminder from a Mod is all it takes at times, then any continued non-sense is open to edit. I mean in the Star Wars Romance thread there is really no reason to discuss why people didn't like the end of Order 66, for one example. Another suggestion is the continued interviews with VIP's started with Kevin Rubio and Henry Gilroy. Of course this is contingent on the VIP's desire to participate. I think its a great way to reach out and make them a part of the boards. It's a very controlled way to have them on board, show them they are appreciated. I think a much better way than inviting them back to discussions in a book thread where a lot of critism appears. Lets take Michael Reaves recent sign up as an example. I'd love to hear an interview with him answering fan submitted questions. I felt bad when his one post was basically spent apologizing for the continuity errors in his most recent book, which were a matter of some discussion in the thread. He obviously wanted to reach out and talk to his readers a bit and I think that interaction would have worked way better as a Q & A than the one (in my mind needless) apology about continuity mistakes. There's three pretty solid idea's I think, four counting your own idea, Keralys -----signature----- I am forever seeking the damutek of Hooley Krekk Oh, woe! Oh, misery! Oh, unhappiness. Hooley Krekk where are you? . http://www.cccomiccon.com http://www.actionfigurenews.ca
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Dingo Title: JCC Manager Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 12/5/08 1:37am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Master_Keralys posted: Karen Traviss is, you are quite right, not the only "maverick." The other primary examples, however, have taken about as much flack as she has for it, but have chosen not to respond in the same way. That says something about the authors as well as about the fans. And I think it's disingenuous to assume that the problem is all the fans. There have been cases where posts Karen has made on her blog, etc. that have come across as direct attacks on TFN people. She may or may not have meant them as such, but they have come across that way. (I have no issue with her.) And she's perfectly within her rights to do so. But to expect no repercussions from that, and to expect people not to be angered by that is horribly unreasonable. Moreover, while I agree that Karen (or Drew, or anyone else who's made changes to canon) is not the sole agent behind it, in that it was approved and allowed by others, it's disingenuous to say, "Well, it's not their fault because someone else approved it." People have the right to be bothered that the author wanted to do it in the first place. Whether or not they're right or wrong is up for debate. And I will defend quite thoroughly people's right to be bothered by that sort of attitude in things they're spending money on, right or wrong in their opinion - and to express it. How they express it is another issue, and whether they need to harp on it another one yet. But I think we're in agreement there. I'll talk about this once, and then not touch it again because I don't think it's fair that Karen is used as the proverbial football by any/everyone. None of it actually started here on the JC. It all started after the actions of a few posters over on SW.com and another place and the way they conducted themselves. After Karen used her blog like anyone does and vented about actions she found disagreeable, they took it across to there also. And because they also posted here and knew Karen had, started making comments in threads here. Karen saw the nature of comments here, asked for slanderous ones to be removed, and the Head Admin at the time did what he usually did and went so far overboard it wasn't funny. Karen got the blame for it, people kept taking shots at her, and it was allowed to go on under a banner of "freedom of speech". A couple more people did a few things that were nderhanded/wrong/disgusting, and then when Karen talked about that people with guilty consciences thought it meant them. There's also the whole 3 million thing, but if anyone took the time to read any more of Karen's blog than single paragraph snippets they would have realised that snarkiness was the baseline and context would have been granted. If people had taken the civilised route and gone "She has her views, I don't agree" and left it at a decent standard of discourse rather than going the way they did then things might have been rather different. In summation, there's only one single area in which any discussion in Lit should actually be even slightly impacted by Karen's (or any other author's) own views, and that's to do with the canon issue in a limited sense. As in whether it should be fixed or fluid. That's it. Anything else is completely extraneous to the scope of any possible Lit thread as it would (and inevitably does) rely on people's own interpretation of Karen's (or insert another author's name here) views, which is a sure road to disaster. Robimus posted: I'm not going to change anyone's opinion and they are not going to change mine. A bit of discussion about why we each feel the way we do is is very acceptable, but does need to be cut off if it gets repetitive. Sometimes I think A simple "Stay on Target" reminder from a Mod is all it takes at times, then any continued non-sense is open to edit. I mean in the Star Wars Romance thread there is really no reason to discuss why people didn't like the end of Order 66, for one example. This. Just to emphasise it again: THIS. One thread had 7 reminders by mods to steer clear of certain subject areas and to play nice. In just over 3 pages. At some point as a moderator you stop being the nice guy and have to do the job you were promoted for and start editing posts, or taking people out of the discussion. It's not the most fun part of the job, but usually they are given fair warning. And I have no problem with this being applied equally to those that are just posting useless 'gushing' posts as those that are ranting. Another thought that might already be in place or not, but since people want to whinge and whine about things, put it all in one place. Instead of what was repeated threads on the 'sad state of the EU' that were all about varied enough angles that they each stayed open, push all into one thread and clear the rest away so that the front page isn't dominated by many topics of the same kind. This can apply to multiple areas including things like canon, author picks, title shuffling, etc. so that OOU topics can still be discussed but without stifling the IU/AU (about universe) threads that should be the majority. There's something else that I'm sure I've harped on about more than once. The forum is a discussion forum, which means threads are about the sharing and dissecting of views and ideas, not places for soapboxing. Something that seems to be way too common is that people will go into a thread, proclaim their view as the one and only truth, call anyone who disagrees with them wrong, restate their view in a slightly differently worded fashion, rinse, repeat, and continue on until they are the last person still posting in the thread, and they claim validation that everyone now should and does agree with them. What should occur is that users would civilly find the flaws in an argument and discuss how it could be better, examine the consequences in and out of universe of various stances, and maybe be willing to find some common ground and/or possible compromise. For the mods, it should all be about fostering the second kind of thread, and killing the first. Anything that looks to be turning into a soapbox-fest, or a rant-a-thon should be locked. Anywhere where it becomes clear that people are not actually looking to sermonise rather than discuss things should be halted. I do know that sometimes it's a fine line, and a discussion can quickly fall into a back-and-forth, but as mods you were selected for the judgment you show and should be able to recognise the difference. And if we as a community disagree, then we can have a discourse on that was where the line should have been drawn, or if it should be a little different. Lit has always been reasonably good at managing that kind of thing. Lastly before I lose the last few people who haven't gone tl;dr, I don't know if I'm misinterpreting mrsvos or not, but hosted book discussions isn't a bad idea either. The Amphitheatre has shown how well a hosted discussion can work on various subjects, and it might be a way to get people interested in Lit, and also discussing older material. Yes, I do know that the 181st were doing something like hosted discussions, but a look at broadening/providing differing ways couldn't hurt. -----signature----- You want someone to hurt like you, You want to share what you've been through. "Well, this couldn't get much worse." "I'm afraid that's a failure of imagination."
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rhonderoo Title: Former Head Admin Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 12/5/08 9:00am Subject: RE: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/5/08 9:02am (2 edits total) Edited By: rhonderoo
	Robimus posted: Sometimes I think A simple "Stay on Target" reminder from a Mod is all it takes at times, then any continued non-sense is open to edit. I mean in the Star Wars Romance thread there is really no reason to discuss why people didn't like the end of Order 66, for one example. Another suggestion is the continued interviews with VIP's started with Kevin Rubio and Henry Gilroy. Of course this is contingent on the VIP's desire to participate. I think its a great way to reach out and make them a part of the boards. It's a very controlled way to have them on board, show them they are appreciated. I think a much better way than inviting them back to discussions in a book thread where a lot of critism appears. Lets take Michael Reaves recent sign up as an example. I'd love to hear an interview with him answering fan submitted questions. I felt bad when his one post was basically spent apologizing for the continuity errors in his most recent book, which were a matter of some discussion in the thread. He obviously wanted to reach out and talk to his readers a bit and I think that interaction would have worked way better as a Q & A than the one (in my mind needless) apology about continuity mistakes. I agree with Rob's "Stay on Target". I've seen you guys do that with some discussions, but feel it could be applied more especially around the controversial topics that "bother" people. And I agree absolutely that everyone has the right to be bothered by Karen's OOU stance on the EU or whatever they are bothered about. They do not have the right to as Dingo says, get on their soapbox, about it every chance they get, even if it means making a snarky comment in a thread that isn't even about her portion of the Universe. Like Rob, I've seen threads where someone has to throw in a comment (LSatSoM comes to mind) about her messing up continuity, when it really isn't needed or relevant there. And I agree that we make Karen sound like the only author that's had a problem, when she isn't. It all boils down to where the line between dicussing the good and bad opinions of the EU and just coming in their to bitch is drawn. I've been there and still go back and occasionally to lurk, I know it's not all whining and moaning, but generally it tends to be about voicing your displeasure the loudest more than good discourse back and forth about IU stuff -- especially to those who don't know the background. And regarding Dingo's history on KT, I'll just say he's absolutely right about the whole thing, but add that the Head Admin and Owner were responsible for the way things were handled, and you can't really discount Lit mods that were there at the time, or myself I guess, as I was Comms admin. Needless to say, it's done and we should be looking forward and working to get past that... again. I'll let the whole KT situation go, but want to leave you guys with one bit of advice. You can't mod every site or blog on the internet, all you can do is control your forum. I don't care who said what somewhere else, we need to worry about making our forum better. The Literature forum. If you have to do like we used to have to do in JCC and tell people to take it offsite, that's what you need to do. If you must vent at an author or about their works and you simply cannot contain yourself, do like they do and create a blog. In other words, everyone on both sides should let it go here on the JC. I'll second Rob's suggestion about getting people to stay on target, as well as keeping book discussion IU. I think that's a good start. I believe a LOT more IU talk and less OOU talk is better. And you guys have been doing a great job of locking threads where people grandstand or make proclamations that amount to nothing more than opinion and should be taken with the same grain of salt as anyone else's. Maybe even leave the author comments to the A/A forum and watch it a little more closely until you get the forum in a better place. Or have author review threads where people can voice their opinion, but watch it closely and don't let people be impolite and call it "freedom of speech". With reason, we all have the ability to state a negative opinion without making it a personal attack. And you could even go as far as keeping the book reviews IU, unless it's general statements like, "Pacing was too slow for my tastes." Or, "I didn't really like the way Luke was characterized." Statements like these allow you to state your opinion on how the author handled whatever you're reviewing, but doesn't bluntly attack the author like say, "I loathe the way Troy wrote Luke to be so indecisive...", etc. -----signature----- DT421 FYI: You don't deal with me. I deal with you. Damned right the Jedi's fire has gone out of the universe. I was the bad-ass Class C extinguisher who snuffed them. - @darthvader (Darth Vader on Twitter)
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TNPredsFan Title: FF Chapter Rep Memphis, TN Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 12/5/08 9:45am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	rhonderoo posted: I agree with Rob's "Stay on Target". I've seen you guys do that with some discussions, but feel it could be applied more especially around the controversial topics that "bother" people. And I agree absolutely that everyone has the right to be bothered by Karen's OOU stance on the EU or whatever they are bothered about. They do not have the right to as Dingo says, get on their soapbox, about it every chance they get, even if it means making a snarky comment in a thread that isn't even about her portion of the Universe. Like Rob, I've seen threads where someone has to throw in a comment (LSatSoM comes to mind) about her messing up continuity, when it really isn't needed or relevant there. And I agree that we make Karen sound like the only author that's had a problem, when she isn't. It all boils down to where the line between dicussing the good and bad opinions of the EU and just coming in their to bitch is drawn. I'd like to take Rhonda's point a step further. I've noticed that some people feel compelled to state their opinions (positive and negative, with an emphasis on the negative) ad nauseam, and it's gotten to the point that I avoid reading certain threads because I can predict who posted and the nature of their posts beforehand. For example, I personally hated most of LotF. I don't feel it's appropriate to proclaim "I hated LotF!!!!!" in every LotF thread or threads where LotF is mentioned. It's redundant at the least and is borderline spamming IMO. Robimus posted: I'm not going to change anyone's opinion and they are not going to change mine. A bit of discussion about why we each feel the way we do is is very acceptable, but does need to be cut off if it gets repetitive. Sometimes I think A simple "Stay on Target" reminder from a Mod is all it takes at times, then any continued non-sense is open to edit. I mean in the Star Wars Romance thread there is really no reason to discuss why people didn't like the end of Order 66, for one example. QFT. -----signature----- "I hate it when people I hate make sense." - Jarael, KotOR Webmaster for: http://www.memphisfanforce.com/ http://www.linworkman.com/ http://www.midsouthcartoonists.com/
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Master_Keralys Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 12/5/08 1:49pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Thanks. I don't have time for an indepth reply to those posts at the moment, but I do appreciate them, and I'm taking them very seriously - all of the points made. I think above all the point regarding just stopping and redirecting threads, especially of the soapbox variety, is a good one, and you're all right that we do need to just start editing out if those directions are ignored. I'll try to reply in more depth later (perhaps even as late as tomorrow), but I wanted you all to know that I've read, am pondering, and am trying to do these things. We'll chat in MS as a team, as well. -----signature----- God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself. The craziest story ever told. The truest.
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mrsvos Registered: Nov '05	Date Posted: 12/5/08 6:17pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	OK - I'll try to frame my suggestion as best I can! I like how you start a thread for an upcoming book early, where people can speculate and chat. Then maybe after the book comes out, the MOD can request users PM them some talking points about they book they'd like to discuss, for instance a certain scene, character development, weapons and tactics, whatever. Then the MOD can throw a few of those out there every few days, and the discussion could be based on the topics suggested by users. A book club is moderated to be sure the discussion is staying on point. The book review thread is still good, here users can 'review' the book to their hearts content. I can see this may require more MODs in Lit., or maybe even users taking turns hosting the book discussion. You've got 5 MODs watching our light hearted shennanigans at JCC, but not as many in Lit., a place where it seems TF.net's public relation problems seem to be originating from - (insulted authors and whatnot) -----signature----- It's not so much emotional baggage, as it's a bunch of overstuffed black hefty bags in the trunk of my car.
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rhonderoo Title: Former Head Admin Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 12/6/08 12:23pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/6/08 12:42pm (4 edits total) Edited By: rhonderoo
	I like mrsvos' suggestion a lot. Maybe a good idea to incorporate into the Review discussions, too. Rate things like pacing, plot, continuity, characterization, etc. by each and make people stay on point and not meander into personal tangents and arguments that tend to derail the conversation or turn the average poster off. I recall some of the most heated discussions and some that have gone the most over the line being in the review threads. I'd also be very strict on the amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth people do based on "spoilers", speculation and whatnot. At this point as a Lit reader with no book in hand I am taking the limited pieces of information, based on someone else's interpretation, out of context and forming an opinion on the impact to my own enjoyment without ever having the opportunity to form MY OWN opinion that might have been totally different had I read in my own context, and without any preconceptions that might be colored by someone else's bias or opinions. To take this further, make the rule about actually reading the material before getting too over reactionary have more teeth. And edit (and even ban) people that don't stick to the Code of Conduct and do things to make Lit a more negative place. People spent a lot of time on it, all of you. Don't let folks ignore it. This means over ANY bit of EU even the controversial authors and artists, not just the bits that everyone generally agrees with. A suggestion could be to link it in a thread that's going over the line or having a "new user" thread where everyone is aware of things like "Read the material first" or things that they'll need to know. If you have to up and point people to it periodically, whatever it takes. I'd also incorporate these ideas into the comics discussions as sometimes those discussions suffer the same problems, with the argument turning into soap boxing and the same cry over and over again about a certain character or how it fits into continuity. I know the artists and authors there are a lot more involved and are good about answering questions and deflecting the criticism when it starts to go over the line, but they shouldn't feel the need to. I also agree that Lit suffers from PR problems and the moderation should be heavy, just like that of JCC. If not more. -----signature----- DT421 FYI: You don't deal with me. I deal with you. Damned right the Jedi's fire has gone out of the universe. I was the bad-ass Class C extinguisher who snuffed them. - @darthvader (Darth Vader on Twitter)
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Dingo Title: JCC Manager Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 12/7/08 2:49am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Ugh, I'm not going to start in on the whole spoilers topic as I'll rant and rave for pages (cue comment about how this is different to any other subject). Suffice to say spoilers and the release of such has not been done well for years. One thing I will say is this: while I do appreciate having this discussion and hoping that something might come out of it, is there any chance we can see more than just you replying to it MK? Or even if other Lit regs know about it and come join in? I know that previously a lot of discussions have been done in Lit, but maybe a more 'neutral' ground would be better since as we've already seen it's dragged at least one person out of hiding, and the slightly different mindset and tone here in Comms could be beneficial. Cause I really don't see much use in just a couple of us saying things that either will lead to changes for everyone else, or worse that it just goes on and then is left with nothing productive coming from it. -----signature----- You want someone to hurt like you, You want to share what you've been through. "Well, this couldn't get much worse." "I'm afraid that's a failure of imagination."
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Master_Keralys Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 12/7/08 7:06am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	I'll get back to everyone in more detail this afternoon, but I did want to say this: Dingo, I will ask the other guys to drop in. Definitely all are reading and following the conversation, and it's being discussed (as well as a number of other forward-motion things we'd already been talking about) in MS, but I will ask Havac, RF, and T2Q to drop in as well. -----signature----- God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself. The craziest story ever told. The truest.
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Havac Title: Lit Mod of War Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 12/7/08 11:31am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Keralys has been his usual self and has said pretty much everything I'd say, so I didn't feel the need to repeat him. We've been discussing this in MS, and definitely taking your suggestions into account. But I'd like to see some more concrete suggestions. We've had a lot of problems identified, but not a lot of solutions proposed other than "Stop people complaining about things so much. Stop people overreacting to spoilers." These are very subjective things to identify. How should we regulate things like that without stifling legit expression of opinion? Is it just up to us to decide when "too much" is and step in? Do we really want a situation where what you can say in Lit entirely comes down to personal judgment call of the mods? That can work, but let's not have any illusions about what's being proposed. -----signature----- "Is there a captain's hat involved in this?" "I . . . don't know what department I want. I need . . . pants."
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rhonderoo Title: Former Head Admin Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 12/7/08 1:33pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	I'll try to be more concrete. We have users in Lit who are unhappy with the way things are going in EU. They didn't like LOTF, or they don't like the way a certain character's legacy is going, etc. This isn't the whole Lit forum, and it's not fair to paint the whole forum with this brush, BUT you have enough of those users that aren't happy with "their" character not being used in the Legacy era or "their" character's order being mishandled, any of those type situations that it starts to make the place more negative. I know for a fact that some of these users say they aren't reading EU anymore, or they stopped at issue X, when so and so was killed, or when they stopped seeing their favorite character in books....yet they STILL come into discussion threads and state the same opinion OVER and OVER again, the artists and authors defend themselves, deflect criticisms, explain the realities of the business...lather, rinse and repeat. Can we have a rule that if you have not read the material being discussed or you aren't up to speed on the storyline, you aren't allowed to keep critiquing the subject matter? And I don't think that's asking too much. If I stopped reading Legacy comics at issue 14, I have no business in the thread hassling current fans over what's going on in the story. That's a clear case of warn, edit, then ban. Period. We don't need those kinds of posters. Also, KOTOR. I realize a lot of fans play the game and read the comics. There is a place for discussion in Games for the game. The discussion in Lit should remain mostly on the comic. I realize there are things are inter-changable in the discussion, but when we're speculating on a game character and the discussion is hard for those who don't read the comics to follow, it should be gently directed back to the comics discussion. Those are two off my head. I promised not to get into KT anymore, but I'll repeat what I said earlier on that. At no time should what she said offsite matter here unless she's on here bothering posters here. Mod here, about things said here. And the rest should be about the material. -----signature----- DT421 FYI: You don't deal with me. I deal with you. Damned right the Jedi's fire has gone out of the universe. I was the bad-ass Class C extinguisher who snuffed them. - @darthvader (Darth Vader on Twitter)
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TKeira_Lea Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 12/7/08 1:53pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	rhonderoo posted: Can we have a rule that if you have not read the material being discussed or you aren't up to speed on the storyline, you aren't allowed to keep critiquing the subject matter? And I don't think that's asking too much. I'll second that. -----signature----- http://www.lominalecantina.com Do you ever talk to yourself? Worry when you answer back. current fanfic ~ Return to Bolis Island http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/29571370/p1/?19
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