Jedi Council Forums - Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)

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Author	Topic: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 12/16/08 4:16am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Question: Are we considering the idea that if you don't like something, not to repeatedly bring said disliked points up? And if so, is that a fair approach or freedom inhibiting? Listening to a Dark Samus track, so it got me in a thinking mood.... -----signature----- Rock-a-by baby, on the treetop, Beaming with pride, the filth they hold, But when the wind blows, my temper implodes, High above a pit, filled with sharkticons, Down will come hardcover addicts, beaming no more. ©
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MsLanna Title: CR GSFF Central = Offizieller Burger Brater Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 12/16/08 4:44am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	If the other one hadn't been closed, I'd suggest a Basher's Sanctuary for such points. People just like to bring up points they dislike. -----signature----- I give up. Fett is great. Member of the waadas'dar Club. Cuyir adate jate, bal droten ori'dush Proud Master and buir'ika of Commander_Ducky. My New Title: Lords and Ladies of the Empire
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rhonderoo Title: Former Head Admin Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 12/16/08 6:09am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/16/08 6:13am (1 edits total) Edited By: rhonderoo
	Excellence posted: Question: Are we considering the idea that if you don't like something, not to repeatedly bring said disliked points up? And if so, is that a fair approach or freedom inhibiting? Freedom inhibiting is eliminating the opportunity to bring it up when it's relevant. I'd say that when a poster takes almost every opportunity to turn any and every conversation into an opportunity to voice their dislike, it's a fair approach to eliminate it in a thread. It's just moderation of a subject and takes place all the time in most productive, fair and intelligent discussions. For example, and I'm sure you remember this Ex... the "Mara wars". When dp4m and the other Lit mods at the time decided that it was time to stop the hijacking of almost every thread by two or three well-known "Mara haters" (where often the vehemence would then turn to the author Zahn, if the discussion couldn't be made relevant for Mara vitriol) by addressing the posters themselves and taking care of that, the community calmed down and was a great place to post until the next situation that caused fan ire, probably the Clone numbers. -----signature----- DT421 FYI: You don't deal with me. I deal with you. Damned right the Jedi's fire has gone out of the universe. I was the bad-ass Class C extinguisher who snuffed them. - @darthvader (Darth Vader on Twitter)
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Trip Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 12/16/08 6:56am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	MsLanna posted: And now that everybody could see how easily any discussion can turn into one about conituity once the word appeared, back to improving Lit. Lit doesn't need much improving, but you and Rob's misconceptions about continuity can obviously use correction. So; here we are. Excellence posted: Question: Are we considering the idea that if you don't like something, not to repeatedly bring said disliked points up? And if so, is that a fair approach or freedom inhibiting? Like roo says, bringing one's dislikes up when it's relevant shouldn't be prevented. When it's not-- or when said dislikes have been shown to be completely unfounded-- well, I honestly don't think it should be prevented either, except for in extreme cases. For example, if someone were to-- just for example-- complain regularly about an incident that they misread, even when constantly corrected (including by author himself), then it's best to just allow the poster's credibility to speak for itself. -----signature----- RIP Jacen's Crotch 1991 - 2008
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rhonderoo Title: Former Head Admin Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 12/16/08 7:07am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	But not at the expense of everyone else who does know what they're talking about, and their ability to keep discussing on topic. I've seen threads be derailed and authors/artists themselves keep trying to redirect and correct the perception of those who haven't read the material and it just not work. That's when it's time to step in and politely suggest to said poster to read the material before coming back, and really mean it. -----signature----- DT421 FYI: You don't deal with me. I deal with you. Damned right the Jedi's fire has gone out of the universe. I was the bad-ass Class C extinguisher who snuffed them. - @darthvader (Darth Vader on Twitter)
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MsLanna Title: CR GSFF Central = Offizieller Burger Brater Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 12/16/08 7:36am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Trip posted: Lit doesn't need much improving, Oops. In that case ignore all I said or have it deleted. I posted here under the assumption that this was a thread about trying to improve something in Lit. You've never seen me. This is not the post you are looking for. waves hand -----signature----- I give up. Fett is great. Member of the waadas'dar Club. Cuyir adate jate, bal droten ori'dush Proud Master and buir'ika of Commander_Ducky. My New Title: Lords and Ladies of the Empire
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Trip Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 12/16/08 9:10am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	rhonderoo posted: But not at the expense of everyone else who does know what they're talking about, and their ability to keep discussing on topic. I've seen threads be derailed and authors/artists themselves keep trying to redirect and correct the perception of those who haven't read the material and it just not work. That's when it's time to step in and politely suggest to said poster to read the material before coming back, and really mean it. Yeah, that's what I mean by extreme cases. -----signature----- RIP Jacen's Crotch 1991 - 2008
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mrsvos Registered: Nov '05	Date Posted: 12/16/08 12:07pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	I haven't said it yet, buy I'd like to thank Master_Keralys for the time and concern he's taken on making The Literature board work for everybody. His commitment will benefit the forum in more ways than one. I'd love nothing more than to see EU authors and artists join or rejoin in discussions. thanks man! -----signature----- It's not so much emotional baggage, as it's a bunch of overstuffed black hefty bags in the trunk of my car.
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 12/16/08 10:51pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Yeah, I remember the "Mara Haters," Rhonda. I got fed up of their puerile rants and decided to get to know one through some subtle conversational probes. They're mostly middle agers who remember the shock of Vader's parental revelation, the hassle of bus stop gossip in an era when mobiles were bricks and the net was someone's conceptual imagination. Carrie was a serious role model for them, and they abided no rivals. I concluded they were "cases" --- I won't prefix it with mental --- just poeple who have a few screws missing and who genuinely, and I mean genuinely, hate Mara. By narrowing the point when they started hating that ficticious personage and feeding back onto their issues, I caught them out. The thing was, they're happy to abuse her, but when caught out on their mistakes, they never discuss it back, just go all quiet and disappear. And they often only appeared to post hate material on Mara, seldom for anything else. That's sad. -----signature----- Rock-a-by baby, on the treetop, Beaming with pride, the filth they hold, But when the wind blows, my temper implodes, High above a pit, filled with sharkticons, Down will come hardcover addicts, beaming no more. ©
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Master_Keralys Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 12/17/08 6:04am Subject: RE: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	MsLanna posted: Trip posted: Lit doesn't need much improving, Oops. In that case ignore all I said or have it deleted. I posted here under the assumption that this was a thread about trying to improve something in Lit. You've never seen me. This is not the post you are looking for. waves hand MsLanna, there's room for disagreement, here. Trip is just as entitled to like Lit the way it is as you are to dislike it the way it is. mrsvos - you're welcome, and that should be extended to the other mods, as well. I may have taken point on this, but all of us are working on it. Rhonda - yeah, you're right. And I think we're getting there, slowly but surely. Can't be everywhere at once, alas, especially when one has to edit the tar out of a given thread, but we're getting there. -----signature----- God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself. The craziest story ever told. The truest.
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MsLanna Title: CR GSFF Central = Offizieller Burger Brater Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 12/17/08 6:53am Subject: RE: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Okay, fist of all apologies to Trip. It's just that your post is right here and such a nice example. I know you're in Lit a lot and I am not. I have you down as 'okay guy', though you seem to work hard to get on the 'stuck-up continuity jock' list. Keralys. I didn't quote all of Trip's sentence because I didn't want to go there. I hate discussions like this, but here you go: Trip posted: Lit doesn't need much improving, but you and Rob's misconceptions about continuity can obviously use correction. It is the subordinate clause that is showing the kind of attitude I have a personal problem with. Why the Force should my (or anybody's) views need 'correction'? The fact that nobody seems to find it anything with this either makes me a wimp, or shows that this is accepted behaviour, in which case I'd rather stay away. I don't want to change (note choice of word) anybody's views (note choice of word). I just realised that the conclusion 'So here we are' also implies that this discussion takes place because some people in Lit seem to have the 'wrong' opinion about continuity. Maybe it is just that everything is fine there except the occasional continuity thing? -----signature----- I give up. Fett is great. Member of the waadas'dar Club. Cuyir adate jate, bal droten ori'dush Proud Master and buir'ika of Commander_Ducky. My New Title: Lords and Ladies of the Empire
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rhonderoo Title: Former Head Admin Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 12/17/08 8:07am Subject: RE: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/17/08 8:24am (3 edits total) Edited By: rhonderoo
	MsLanna posted: I just realised that the conclusion 'So here we are' also implies that this discussion takes place because some people in Lit seem to have the 'wrong' opinion about continuity. Maybe it is just that everything is fine there except the occasional continuity thing? The fact that this thread is on page four in Comms and more than just one or two people are in the discussion means that there's at least a few people who think that Lit needs improving. I think you and Trip might be at the extreme ends of the argument on either side, but both of you are entitled to your opinions, just like anyone who takes the time to come discuss Lit, instead of just going away. IMO, what the Lit mods should strive for is a little more in the way of the middle, like I've seen repeatedly in this thread -- more moderation of the extremes on any given issue. I'll give an example: There's a thread on page 1 in Lit right now with VERY clear directions right off the bat from a mod in color on what the discussion should look like, what's off limits and what will happen. Yet there are more edits than I can count on two hands from repeat offenders and as far as I know, no one's been banned yet. There's a couple of warnings, then a couple more, then "I'm not kidding, guys!". To me, this is a clear cut case of a need to really get the message across. I'm not directing criticism at the mods in there editing, I'm just saying maybe it's a case of being overly cautious in a controversial situation. An old friend (and very respected and experienced mod) once told me that sometimes, locking a thread isn't the right thing to do, but getting rid of the problem(s) in the thread is -- teaching folks that you won't limit discussion, but you will enforce the rules. -----signature----- DT421 FYI: You don't deal with me. I deal with you. Damned right the Jedi's fire has gone out of the universe. I was the bad-ass Class C extinguisher who snuffed them. - @darthvader (Darth Vader on Twitter)
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Master_Keralys Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 12/17/08 8:51am Subject: RE: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/17/08 9:04am (2 edits total) Edited By: Master_Keralys
	Rhonda, there is a ban in there, thanks, and frankly, you have no way of knowing anything other than that there are edits, so please don't assume. Pretty much all the edits in there were done in the span of less than an hour this morning. If you'd actually been interested in looking at what I was doing, instead of just in pointing fingers again, you'd have seen as much and realized that as soon as I saw a problem, I dealt with it, and quite harshly. It's finals week for me, and I haven't had time to sit in there and watch that thread like a hawk, and when I did stop in and saw it was a mess, I cleaned it up, including making a relevant ban. I'm not going to ban everyone who's trying to play by the rules but responding to a troublemaker or three. If you'll excuse me, I'm going to get back to studying for a quantum mechanics exam. Edit 1 - clarity. Edit 2 - sorry, I think that's coming off a bit snarky, and I don't mean it to. I'm just a bit tired of being jumped on here, when I'm working pretty hard on stuff for Lit, and that in the middle of dealing with a lot of things going on in real life which are frankly much more important. So, I'm sorry for the slightly harsh tone in both this post and the one below. I'm not sure how to rewrite them so they're less snarky, so I'll leave them as they are for now, with this apology to stand in place of a rewrite at this point. -----signature----- God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself. The craziest story ever told. The truest.
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Master_Keralys Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 12/17/08 9:02am Subject: RE: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	MsLanna - I understand what you're saying about Trip. Frankly, I'd like to edit both of you for a couple things in the last back-and-forth, but this isn't my board, and I'm waiting to hear back from an admin about it. You argue that you don't want to change anyone's views. That being so, why are you here trying to persuade us to make Lit a place that looks like you want it to look, with your outlook on continuity being enforced? You are trying to chane people's views. That's okay; there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. How you do it is another issue entirely, and frankly, both you and Trip have been a bit sarcastic and unhelpful in the way you've presented your views. I think Trip is frustrated that you think his view of continuity is the problem in Lit, while you're frustrated because you think "continuity" discussions take up too much time in Lit and a lot of people in Lit disagree. That's fine, both ways. But you need to recognize that there's room for a valid difference of opinion here. And Trip isn't a Lit mod. If I've said you're welcome to the discussion, then you're welcome to the discussion, and you can't dismiss that by quoting someone else. -----signature----- God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself. The craziest story ever told. The truest.
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rhonderoo Title: Former Head Admin Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 12/17/08 9:11am Subject: RE: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/17/08 9:32am (3 edits total) Edited By: rhonderoo
	Master_Keralys posted: If you'd actually been interested in looking at what I was doing, instead of just in pointing fingers again, I'm sorry if I offended you, so I'll try not to get defensive in response to you getting that way. If you'd read MY post, you'd see that I said I wasn't directing criticism at any of you, and I have read the whole thread, so I'm not assuming anything -- it's my opinion on what I saw and I know how things work behind the scenes, I've been there. I'll stop right here with this line of discussion as it won't go anywhere that it needs to for anyone, especially if you and I start going back and forth, or if people start piling on either way. Needless to say, it wasn't meant to "point fingers" (yeah, that was snarky on your part), but give an example...something I thought you guys had asked for. Sorry for assuming on that one. And don't apologize for real life, everyone has them, you gotta do what you gotta do and you've given a lot of time to this already. Lit isn't burning to the ground for pity's sake, and I don't think anyone here has said it is. We've all acknowledged that we see a difference already, and you're a big part of that. I don't know if you guys are taking this as what it is, just concerned feedback (on my part, anyway) and suggestions that were solicited. As someone who's been there and done that, I understand how something like this in Comms can feel like an attack on your modding or your team or "being jumped on", but for my part anyway (and that's all I can speak for) it's not and most people that have ever been in MS have felt the way you feel, or even anyone that's participated in a heavy debate -- this is Comms. Hopefully, no one has come in here to just to hurt you guys' feelings. -----signature----- DT421 FYI: You don't deal with me. I deal with you. Damned right the Jedi's fire has gone out of the universe. I was the bad-ass Class C extinguisher who snuffed them. - @darthvader (Darth Vader on Twitter)
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