Jedi Council Forums - Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)

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Author	Topic: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
J_K_DART Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 12/8/08 3:45pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	I have to say I think comments here have already been very constructive. I think you could do something like this... (For ease, I'll use LSatSoM as my example): The Official LSatSoM Discussion thread The Review thread Author discussion: Matt Stover Q&A: Matt Stover Continuity (current focus: LSatSoM) I don't see why you couldn't possibly keep the continuity debate on the one thread, frankly, and just keep ammending it so as to say 'this is the current focus'. By 'focus' you don't imply that something else couldn't get brought up, but just that this is the latest release and everyone's attention is there. I don't know how often Clone Wars stuff is being released, so maybe just keep that separate as its a separate medium? shrugs Just a thought; it makes it much easier for those continuity-minded individuals to enjoy those particular threads. The Author discussion thread would be, quite obviously, a thread for discussing that author - including any public statements they made. Because it's all on the one thread, it's easier to moderate; generally, certain ppl are more controversial than others, and it's easier to identify their threads as potential flashpoints. Is anyone really going to open a can of worms on a KJA thread? (Actually, correct answer: Yes, but it's less likely to be noticed by fellow posters, never mind Mods.) -----signature----- "Victory without risk is like a pizza without pepperoni." "I like my pizzas without pepperoni." "Sir master of the long post" - Excellence
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RK_Striker_JK_5 Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 12/8/08 3:46pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	I'll admit, I'm not 100% sure what I'm supposed to bring to the table here, per se. Keralys contacted me and asked me to contribute. So... after having read through this... I don't have a lot. I'll admit, Trace and Rhonderoo, I'm one of the ones who do not read the current material. But... I do try to make my comments as constructive as possible. I also read reviews and excerpts online. Heck, I practically read all of 'Invincible' from Gabri_Jade's LJ review. Or got a clear picture of it. There are some of us who do not have the time or money to spend on the EU, especially the nine HCs coming up. And some things you hear just make you pause and go, "What the kriff?" Authors... I got no problem talking to them. I got no problem respecting them. I don't see it with all authors. KJA gets slammed a lot, IIRC. It was kinda neat actually having John and Jan respond to me in a Legacy thread. I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to say, here. IU-only discussion is unfeasible, IMHO. Some things need to be called out as bad decisions. They can't be retconned away IU. -----signature----- E-married to the wonderful DarthIshtar. Now also her Padawan. Member of the Y.J.K. Revolution Staring into the Darkness http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/27537567/p1/?23
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TKeira_Lea Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 12/8/08 4:13pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/8/08 4:14pm (1 edits total) Edited By: TKeira_Lea
	RK_Striker_JK_5 posted: Heck, I practically read all of 'Invincible' from Gabri_Jade's LJ review. Or got a clear picture of it. Not a clear picture of it. You got a perspective of it as presented from a specific set of eyes. That's why people take issue with users that haven't actually read the material commenting; you just end up regurgitating someone's views and not bringing a perspective that represents what you gleaned from the source for yourself. It's nice to see this conversation. There are many intelligent users who have splendidly detailed conversations about the books and comics in small circles at other sites but refuse to participate in the exact same discussions over in Lit, simply because the atmosphere is so off-putting. If I have one thing to contribute to this discussion it is that change will only come about if those at the top take it to heart and lead by example. It's promising to see colors from Lit in here discussing options. Still some of worst examples of posting in Lit have come from board VIPs. If that's not addressed, Lit will never change no matter how many ideas are thrown out here. -----signature----- http://www.lominalecantina.com Dark Journey, the EU's version of a head fake current fanfic ~ Return to Bolis Island http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/29571370/p1/?19
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RK_Striker_JK_5 Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 12/8/08 4:17pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	TKeira_Lea posted: RK_Striker_JK_5 posted: Heck, I practically read all of 'Invincible' from Gabri_Jade's LJ review. Or got a clear picture of it. Not a clear picture of it. You got a perspective of it as presented from a specific set of eyes. That's why people take issue with users that haven't actually read the material commenting; you just end up regurgitating someone's views and not bringing a perspective that represents what you gleaned from the source for yourself. It's nice to see this conversation. There are many intelligent users who have splendidly detailed conversations about the books and comics in small circles at other sites but refuse to participate in the exact same discussions over in Lit, simply because the atmosphere is so off-putting. If I have one thing to contribute to this discussion it is that change will only come about if those at the top take it to heart and lead by example. It's promising to see colors from Lit in here discussing options. Still some of worst examples of posting in Lit have come from board VIPs. If that's not addressed, Lit will never change no matter how many ideas are thrown out here. Considering the massive amount of quotes... I got the gist. Some things can be taken at face value with the EU. And like I said, some people don't have the time/money, but can still make contributions otherwise. -----signature----- E-married to the wonderful DarthIshtar. Now also her Padawan. Member of the Y.J.K. Revolution Staring into the Darkness http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/27537567/p1/?23
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Gabri_Jade Title: Fan Fiction Archive Editor Emeritus Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 12/8/08 4:36pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Popping in very briefly because my name was mentioned, and I feel obligated now. Striker, you definitely got the gist of Invincible if you read my review. I tried hard to be objective and include a lot of quotes specifically so that people could form their own views, but TKL is right that in such an instance, you mostly saw the book through my eyes, and potentially with my biases. And for some of the in-depth discussions that Lit features, that may well not be enough. The reason I finished reading the series myself even though I was utterly disgusted with it by the halfway point was so that I could judge it fairly, and I did not feel I could do so by relying on secondhand accounts. Just so we're clear, though: I'm not posting in support or opposition to any suggestions made so far, including the one about having to read the books before commenting. Lit's not my regular forum and I do not feel that I know it well enough to constructively contribute to this discussion. I'm just saying that while detailed reviews are great things and can give you an overall understanding of the book in question, they are not a substitute for reading the book yourself, and there will always be nuances and subtleties missed if someone relies only on other people's reviews. I do think that, at the least, people who rely on reviews need to remember to take that into account. -----signature----- Evil Twin of LadyPadme This concept of "wuv" confuses and infuriates us! - Futurama All I can do is be me. Whoever that is. - Bob Dylan Serendipity (Leia-Mara vig) - http://boards.theforce.net/b/b1/30178069 !!11!1eleventy
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 12/9/08 12:39am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Appreciation thread. What someone did a few years back was an appreciation thread, and I remember it was quite popular. Thanking what material you liked. It was an icebreaker at a time when the NJO divided the forum. You won't stop fans disliking Karen for blaspheming their sanctity, but I think it's just what Litties need. -----signature----- Rock-a-by baby, on the treetop, Beaming with pride, the filth they hold, But when the wind blows, my temper implodes, High above a pit, filled with sharkticons, Down will come hardcover addicts, beaming no more. ©
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beccatoria Title: Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 12/9/08 4:17am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Hi all. I'm not entirely sure what I can bring to this discussion because I think I'm in the minority of people who doesn't really feel that Lit is either crashing and burning or a wretched hive of scum and posting villainy. So...maybe I can bring that? I do think that, as a large forum, with an ever-increasing amount of canon (and fandoms always get more active/riled up/whiny when new canon is introduced; this is not unique to Star Wars), it's a busy and occasionally volatile atmosphere. I'm just not actually sure it's possible to have a forum as expansive in terms of users and topics as Lit and not have these sorts of issues. The key is good moderating to make sure that lines don't get stepped over and that when they do, appropriate measures are taken. Honestly, I actually think our moderators do a pretty good job of that. But I may also be in a minority of people who would rather things occasionally accidentally go too far and get reigned in than things be kept highly moderated and occasionally not let far enough. Basically because I come here for fun and for me that necessitates a feeling that I can freely express myself and don't need to watch what I'm saying (though obviously I don't want to needlessly insult or offend, and that's not true for all posters). But I'm also aware that for others, it necessitates feeling like it's a safe environment where they won't get jumped on for saying the wrong thing. Which is the root of this discussion, probably. I confess that there are people I avoid, topics I avoid and times when I've felt attacked, or that a mod made the wrong call. But I don't think that's necessarily a sign that there are problems with Lit that wouldn't exist in another forum of similar size and scope. I'm certainly on the same page as RF regarding the discussion of the computer games. Effectively Lit is the EU discussion forum and I like it that way. Technically comics aren't literature either, nor radio dramas, but we don't really have anywhere else to discuss them, and the storyline of the computer games, at least, is highly pertinent to a lot of the KOTOR material. I don't think that it's any more rude to discuss it when others haven't played the games/read about the storylines than it is to discuss how LOTF and Legacy might fit together. It's just another aspect of having such a massive amount of interlocking canon. I also think that where appropriate, we need to be able to reference public statements authors have made about their EU work. If the Lit forum existed in a vacuum, we wouldn't...have a forum. Everything we discuss comes from LFL and its employees; as long as it's pertinent to the discussion (and it frequently is, see JJM's production notes or Sue Rostoni's posts on the Official Site) it should be allowed. Further, "take it offsite," isn't really a direction that works for someone who comes to this site because this is their Star Wars community. Many of us don't have anywhere to take the discussion. Which isn't to say that it's Lit's responsibility to host inappropriate discussions, but simply to say that if Lit wants to foster a sense of community (which is something I enjoy about it), that may not be as helpful an attitude as simply moderating those discussions when they get out of line. I'd also like to take the time to express my gratitude and thanks to the mods for so clearly believing in the need for allowing criticism both of the author's professional work and the problems inherent in banning discussion of spoilers. Speaking as a spoiler-whore, I love dissecting spoilers. It's a huge part of my fannish fun. I don't always like them. I do try to express why and be rational about it and understand that in context it might be different. But the idea of not being allowed to render judgement would take away a huge amount of the build-up, fun and excitement about waiting for a new release for me. As to concrete suggestions: 1) While I don't feel it's necessary for me, I do support the idea of creating multiple threads for major new releases if that will be useful. I mean, there's a single thread for discussing all the clone wars cartoon continuity issues, right? And I think that seems to be working well as a 'containment area'? It seems to me that if there are problems with discussing certain topics, and them coming up again and again, creating dedicated threads for those issues, or splitting down the discussion into different threads is far preferable than stopping the discussion outright and would be a great, constructive way to deal with it. 2) More moderation. I've already stated that I'm generally okay with Lit and take any negative parts of the environment as simply the hazards of any large community of passionate people with diverse opinions, but I trust our mods, and if there are problems with the tone of the Lit board, allowing them and encouraging them to make more judgement calls is the only thing that can possibly work. We can't make people have more IU discussions (and frankly, I really like the OOU ones too!) And flat-out banning whole avenues of discussion is going to make the forum a really boring place for many, and I know that I'd feel uncomfortable at the restrictions even if it wasn't something I wanted to talk about. I think that it'd create an atmosphere of resentment in a way that extra editing and bannings wouldn't. I honestly believe that coming out and saying, "You can now no longer talk about X, Y and Z," would create a worse atmosphere than we currently have. It would be punishing everyone on the forum who engages in these discussions in an appropriate and interesting way because of a few who can't, and in an environment we choose because we find it fun, I think that might irreparably damage morale. So yeah. I strongly believe that while ideas like splitting up discussions into more threads, or encouraging more IU discussion to create balance are great ideas, any underlying issues people have with the tone of the forum can only be handled by more modding, not more absolute rules, or even more vague, "let's not talk about X, but obviously we don't mean in an absolute sense," type rules which just confuse the hell out of me, and, I think, a lot of others. Um, anyway. Those are my thoughts. That and, in general, I really think Lit's gonna be okay. -----signature----- legatus imperatoris britanniæ superior REMEMBER: X-WING: WEDGE'S GAMBLE DISCUSSION STARTS IN DECEMBER! Han's a girl, so I got a Golden Ewok.
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TNPredsFan Title: FF Chapter Rep Memphis, TN Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 12/9/08 6:32am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	I don't think anyone has suggested that video games, specifically KotOR I & II, shouldn't be discussed in Lit. I'm a gamer who loves the KotOR games, but there have been times over the past year when the thread dedicated to Issue X barely discussed the events of the actual issue. While game-related topics are welcome in the overall conversation, they shouldn't dominate a comics thread and vice versa. Some of the conversations that occur should be redirected to the KotOR in the EU thread. -----signature----- "I hate it when people I hate make sense." - Jarael, KotOR Webmaster for: http://www.memphisfanforce.com/ http://www.linworkman.com/ http://www.midsouthcartoonists.com/
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Jedimarine Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 12/9/08 6:57am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Greetings folks. I've come late to the party and it appears much has already been covered. I also already wrote a small off the cuff with suggestions to Keralys...I'll let him decide if and when to incorporate those thoughts (my suggestions might be beyond the feasible realm.) Just one radical thought to this whole authors vs. expressing consternation and anger, etc. We seem to have this uproarious desire to take books on the total...the continued success of Havac's review threads is certainly a testament to that...but no single form of discussion is easier to allow for the whole "the author hates us" or "the author doesn't care" then this "review" process of books...it's turned Lit into a convention of amateur critics...which is precisely why there is such vehemence...because it is an expression of personal opinion on the work, and people go to certain lengths to make sure they are heard. The "book" or "novel" or even comic "issue" are ostensibly an "out of universe" perspective on what is presented...when someone writes a review or comments on the books themselves, it puts there brains in this world, and that is what allows attention to be paid to the authors. A similar, and far FAR more troubling matter is the rise of the "continuity in jeopardy" threads...the ones that discuss reboots, or the latest stab against the canon...things that, unless you are living under a rock, we all know about...unless they are folks who get their Star Wars info from the forum itself...which is a bad thing...forums should be the last place you get your "news"...and I dislike the notion that a forum could be such. Even when people post a "link" to news right before expressing their "take" on it...that starts off the discussion on a slanted and awkward foot. I think the key for Lit is to refocus on the "In universe" topics...to again embrace the concept that WE are the place to go for EU in detail. If continuity is botched...SO WHAT...we will fix it...and heaven's knows we've got the Wookie-builders to support whatever is forged. LFL shows no love to continuity...fine...we love it, and we can make it work. We need to stop caring about why things don't go the way we want...cause frankly, even we can't agree on that...all we can do if offer solutions to the problems for each other...and forget the other stuff. The issues that plague the community and cause such abusive posting is not going away...It's going to get worse...and probably accelerate. And as old guard step away, both from forum and the material, the space will be filled with people who are either angry, or have no idea what the complaints are about. If Lit wants to be a bastion for an "Expanded Universe" that the community appreciates in cohesion...then it must do it at the exclusion of thoughts on how this is coming together in the business world. -------------- Now, I'm sure this is heartbreaking to folks who want to talk to VIPs...and to you I say this...which do you think a VIP would appreciate more, a detailed, meticulous critical review of their work by 50-100 people, 95% of which have no footing to stand on in such matters... or join a discussion on a particular setting or gadget or species they introduced, and how WE are absorbing it into canon...how WE are embracing it. I would hope most of the VIPs would rather the later...would rather see their stuff joining with the ranks of the others who have made our world...not getting gushing praise intermixed with concerns and conjecture on who they are and the quality of their craft and personal character. Let VIPs come to Lit to be PART of the conversation...not THE Conversation. I think those who join us regularly right now...the LEGACY team in particular do a good job of that...even visiting threads that don't have "issue #"...they see the topics about Cade or Krayt and will add to them...it's a healthy way about it. ----------------- Something I wrote in Lit recently: I posted this in this thread recently posted: And now it's time for Jedimarine's brutal truth of the month: The sooner we all learn that no one cares about this stuff as much as we do, the more comfortable we'll all be in the face of such unwieldy expenditures of timeline and slights of continuity. The people at LFL are not our friends...despite their pandering on TOS forums. And, bless their hearts, even some of the creative teams who do their very best to give us quality AND accuracy are going to run into obstacles where they'll have to choose between appeasing the vocal constructionist minority, and appealing to wider markets...I hate it, but I have to understand that. We are running headlong into a universe that is no longer going to be "and the next chapter is"... We are moving into "welcome to star wars...it's too big for you...too big for anyone...focus your search, and pick your path from the multiple choice." Lit will survive...it will mutate with the times and the audience...but if we want to make it be something...it means effort...it means saying "in here, we discuss the Expanded Universe, not the politics of publishers, the personal hang ups of creative teams, or the market "focusing" of the franchise overlord. In here, we take what we are given, and we make it work...we remark on the cool things that are provided, and the cooler dots we connect amongst ourselves...we dare to make Darth Bane and Jedi vs. Sith semi-agreeable, and if we can't, then we decide to do the best we can about it. In Lit, we ignore nonconstructive voices from outside, even when it comes from those with intimate access to this universe, and we take what they give and make it serve US...and if it can't, well we do the best we can and move on. Being passive, and assuming LFL is going to get in right...assuming Abel catches everything or that the editors are taking hard lines with authors...it's not going to serve us as a community. If the torch on keeping this universe together has been dropped...and we appreciate...we need to pick it up...not cry that it's flickering in the mud. -----signature----- So Devaronian females are suppose to have thick fur, eh? Has anyone seen one outside an essential guide? ... When even the creative teams refuse to make fuzzy Devaronians...it should be a clue, folks. Thus endeth the lesson.
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Sinrebirth Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 12/9/08 7:41am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	But by embracing that mindset we run the risk of losing posters simply because they have no desire to care. Disenfranchised posters are at least posters. What I'd suggest is this, and it's going to be a damn surprising idea. The EU is getting massively expansive. We have no less than half a dozen era's to touch upon. More every few years, surprisingly. Here's the list, for those who aren't EU-lovers... 1) KotoR - 4000 years before the Battle of Yavin (BBY) to 1000 BBY 2) The Prequel Era - Around 50 BBY to 19 BBY (Getting fuller every week !) 3) The Dark Times - 19 BBY to 2 BBY 4) The Rebellion - 2 BBY to 5 ABY 5) The Bantam Era (for lack of a better term) - 5 ABY to 25 ABY 6) NJO - 25 ABY to 40 ABY 7) LotF and FotJ - 40 ABY onwards 8) Legacy - 127 ABY onwards Now, what I suggest is that we separate the Lit boards. The simplest way you're going to be able to get the full benefit of discussion without the majority of the cons is to separate the Lit boards. The Games area is considering a separate board for The Old Republic game - why don't we make a separate KotoR Lit Board? With Darth Bane books, sourcebooks, and KotoR comics, as well as the old TotJ comics, there's enough to fill a board. Those who prefer the classic era, touching upon the Big Three, could easily have a board dedicated from the Rebellion to NJO. These area's aren't as heavily being used by Del Rey, but there are indications that they will do moreso as years go along - we have massive gaps they can use, and they will. We all know the Clone Wars and Dark Times era's are going to be filled dramatically in the next few years, so shouldn't we anticipate that? Those who prefer the future have a 'LotF and Legacy' Board, which is being filled constantly by the books and comics. If we consider the idea of separating continuity discussion from general discussion from reviews from Q & A, we're going to have a lot of threads. More importantly, are we extending the 'Do not Review unless you're read the Whole book' element in the review thread to a Q & A area? Yes, we're going to be big on redundancy, but if we made the Lit Board a centerpiece to boards dedicated to particular eras, then you've got something which boosts posting, separates a great deal of disagreements and creates a more pleasant environ and thus entices people back to the Lit boards. The issues we have would diminish, greatly, to say the least. Yes, I know I'm suggesting something mildly controversial, but it's a suggestion with pro's and con's and I felt it needed considering. -----signature----- Darth Insipid Proud Fan of the Tragedy of Jacen Solo Missing Chapters of Invincible; Chapter 7.5 is up! Jacen and Tassels; Lecersen; Syal; Wedge and Wes and... Tarfang! http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28933751/p3/?70
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J_K_DART Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 12/9/08 7:58am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Jedimarine: I don't agree with that idea, tbt, because there's a place for oou discussion too - the problem is that it's gone too far, not that it's happening at all. There's a definite place for us, as readers, to review a book and say what we got out of it and what we were disappointed with; frankly, I suspect it's even of value on an industry-level, because it tells authors how their writing is received. Now, I do think a dedicated continuity thread is a good idea in part for the reasons you specify; because rather than being a 'panic' thread, it would be a sort of 'fixit' thread. I think it's possible to push this too far, tbt. -----signature----- "Victory without risk is like a pizza without pepperoni." "I like my pizzas without pepperoni." "Sir master of the long post" - Excellence
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The_Loyal_Imperial Title: C&G Game Host Registered: Nov '07	Date Posted: 12/9/08 7:58am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	beccatoria posted: The key is good moderating to make sure that lines don't get stepped over and that when they do, appropriate measures are taken. This, I agree with. I don't think there's any single solution that's going to clear up all of the Literature board's issues, people will think what they want to think and say what they want to say; that's the whole point of Lit. What can be done, rather, is, as has been said, keep the vocal minority from restating their opinions ad nauseam and derailing what would be an otherwise pleasant discussion for others. The nature of the Expanded Universe, as it is now, will inevitably lead to disagreements and arguments, the trick is to keep those arguments and disagreements from spreading out from the threads where they do belong to where they don't.
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Jedimarine Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 12/9/08 7:58am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	But that will reduce posters as well, Sin. It will delude the community and divide it into camps...and they will become communities unto themselves. Currently we have "sub groups", but they will still post randomly in forums they might not otherwise because they are in there...you send a KOTOR fan to a KOTOR forum, you won't see them in OT or LOTF very often, if ever. Not to mention, you run the even worse risk of developing rigid divisions on the EU in general, when that seems to be a primary resistance of most people...people want unity and cooperation in there...not to segregate out of frustration. -----signature----- So Devaronian females are suppose to have thick fur, eh? Has anyone seen one outside an essential guide? ... When even the creative teams refuse to make fuzzy Devaronians...it should be a clue, folks. Thus endeth the lesson.
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Jedimarine Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 12/9/08 8:02am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	J_K_DART posted: Jedimarine: I don't agree with that idea, tbt, because there's a place for oou discussion too - the problem is that it's gone too far, not that it's happening at all. There's a definite place for us, as readers, to review a book and say what we got out of it and what we were disappointed with; frankly, I suspect it's even of value on an industry-level, because it tells authors how their writing is received. Now, I do think a dedicated continuity thread is a good idea in part for the reasons you specify; because rather than being a 'panic' thread, it would be a sort of 'fixit' thread. I think it's possible to push this too far, tbt. IIRC, there used to be a "Lit Review Board". What happened there? -----signature----- So Devaronian females are suppose to have thick fur, eh? Has anyone seen one outside an essential guide? ... When even the creative teams refuse to make fuzzy Devaronians...it should be a clue, folks. Thus endeth the lesson.
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Sinrebirth Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 12/9/08 8:04am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/9/08 8:09am (1 edits total) Edited By: Sinrebirth
	Well, I wanted to at least raise the issue, even to have it dismissed as out of hand, as it can be useful to establish where some of us are not willing to go, as well as are. -----signature----- Darth Insipid Proud Fan of the Tragedy of Jacen Solo Missing Chapters of Invincible; Chapter 7.5 is up! Jacen and Tassels; Lecersen; Syal; Wedge and Wes and... Tarfang! http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28933751/p3/?70
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