Jedi Council Forums - Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)

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Author	Topic: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
Master_Keralys Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 12/9/08 8:06am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	TNPredsFan posted: I don't think anyone has suggested that video games, specifically KotOR I & II, shouldn't be discussed in Lit. I'm a gamer who loves the KotOR games, but there have been times over the past year when the thread dedicated to Issue X barely discussed the events of the actual issue. While game-related topics are welcome in the overall conversation, they shouldn't dominate a comics thread and vice versa. Some of the conversations that occur should be redirected to the KotOR in the EU thread. I agree with you there, and we do need to do a better job of redirecting threads/keeping the issue discussions more on track. It's hard when JJM throws the gamers a bone like he did in #34, though... Becca - I hear you, on all counts, and I appreciate the optimism. One of the things we're discussing at this point is not putting a total kibosh on OOU threads; as you note, they are important. Rather, we might limit and control them more effectively so they become a more useful part of the ongoing development of Lit, instead of a highly inflammatory point. And we are definitely looking at more moderating. (For that matter, I think we've already started doing it, in a lot of ways; I know that both Havac and I have been taking a more proactive approach on some of these issues already, and I think it's doing good in the forum. Not that it's going to change overnight, of course, but it's a start.) J_K_DART - I think you're on to something here with Jedimarine's suggestions. Jedimarine - I think there's some good points in there, which I'll mull over and get back to you on. I do think that I'm a bit less pessimistic than you about some of this, but you've been around longer, and that makes a difference. Again, I'll get back to you on some of that, though. Sin - Wow. Didn't see that coming. I don't think it's beyond consideration, either, though you're obviously going to have to give us time to process a bit. My first reaction is a negative one, but I'm not sure if that's not just momentum. I'd also like to hear feedback from the other people in the thread on that. I'll think on that today and talk to the other Lit mods, because that would be a huge undertaking to do that. Not impossible, but huge, and whether or not it's worthwhile is a really big question, as well. Worth talking about, in any case. Surprising is right. I do think that, on a sort of related note, small and "cosmetic" though it might be, we really do need to look at changing the title of our category from "Books and Comics" to something like "Expanded Universe," because that's what we are - both in the EUC and Lit, we do cover everything from games to RPGs to books and comics to the Clone Wars (though we have only one thread for that, and only because it is germane and relevant; we're not trying to steal LACWAC's show... after all, Quest moderates both). Everything is in. So I think we should do a title change on the category, at a bare minimum. runs off to class, pondering -----signature----- God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself. The craziest story ever told. The truest.
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Master_Keralys Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 12/9/08 8:10am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	And you all had to go posting while I typed! Jedimarine raises one of the concerns I had, but Sin's point stands, too, I think: it's important to consider it even if to clearly say why we won't go there. TLI, I think you and Becca and others are right about this. It's something we're pondering and working on, starting with investing the Code with some teeth. Hopefully we'll start getting this more right. Jedimarine - the Lit Review Forum went away because it essentially wasn't being used, thanks to the existence of the Lit Review Specials. It was fairly dead before that, anyway; Havac started those essentially because the other wasn't getting much use. By last year, it was pretty much dead, with the occasional request to bump/unlock for use, and the mods deemed it was time for it to be retired. (That was just before I came on.) I think that makes sense, but there is, of course, room for disagreement. -----signature----- God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself. The craziest story ever told. The truest.
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Sinrebirth Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 12/9/08 8:14am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Either way, it's something to consider by each of us at some point. I knew it was out there, but it was also worth considering, MK. chuckles It would be a huge undertaking, but very doable. -----signature----- Darth Insipid Proud Fan of the Tragedy of Jacen Solo Missing Chapters of Invincible; Chapter 7.5 is up! Jacen and Tassels; Lecersen; Syal; Wedge and Wes and... Tarfang! http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28933751/p3/?70
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The_Loyal_Imperial Title: C&G Game Host Registered: Nov '07	Date Posted: 12/9/08 8:22am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	On Sinrebirth's suggestion, it's an intriguing idea, but not one I think is feasible. Not with that many divisions, at least. If you did before Yavin, Original Trilogy era, and after Endor, then it becomes slightly more possible, but with that many different sections I think you'll be firmly in Department of Redundancy territory, as you said: lowering overall traffic for the sake of separating discussion. Even then, you'd run into the problem of where to put cross-era threads, the ones dedicated to examining the whole spectrum of the EU.
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Jedimarine Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 12/9/08 8:22am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	I guess that raises a red flag to me. 1) Lit Review Board is there to be used. But is used sporadically and is really not worth keeping. 2) Lit Review Board is shut down, leaving the "specials" and what little content might have been suited to that board to migrate to Lit. 3) Our current debacle. I guess what I'm suggesting is that when that stuff had a place to go...even if it was seldom used, it at least went somewhere where it wasn't in the midst of the typical Lit discussions. Now, I'm not sure how much redirecting any of the mods EVER did for such stuff to that board, but it seems folks were reluctant to frequent that board, so those voices came to Lit...and it's gotten more heavy handed. I don't believe there is causation there, but there is a correlation that could be considered. People didn't visit the review board because people didn't want to read reviews...so...reviews come to lit board...negativity and infighting increase...and we start talking about ways to "fix" lit. Maybe the answer is as easy as reopen "Lit Review" and migrate all those topics to there. -----signature----- So Devaronian females are suppose to have thick fur, eh? Has anyone seen one outside an essential guide? ... When even the creative teams refuse to make fuzzy Devaronians...it should be a clue, folks. Thus endeth the lesson.
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beccatoria Title: Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 12/9/08 8:25am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	My personal reaction to splitting the boards is a negative one. I came to the Lit board having read far less in far fewer eras than I have/do now often because I thought, "Ooooh, what an interesting thread title," and clicked on something and found interesting information. I like the cross-discussion as it's often an education for me in terms of the EU. Were it not for this, I never would have started reading either KOTOR or Legacy, and probably wouldn't have read much of the PT material I've read. I also think it might stagnate discussion. Sub-forums often get far less traffic than main forums and so all the interesting IU threads we want to encourage might get far less traffic. It might sound like the height of laziness (indeed it might be the height of laziness) but there really is something in my head that balks at having to click around and refresh three or four different forums instead of just one. A large part is actually because it feels so messy in my head. Which again, is a subjective issue. But in general, I think all you'd do is split up the community even further and provide more indepth IU discussion with less traffic. And I'm not convinced it would help with any of the ongoing issues. -----signature----- legatus imperatoris britanniæ superior REMEMBER: X-WING: WEDGE'S GAMBLE DISCUSSION STARTS IN DECEMBER! Han's a girl, so I got a Golden Ewok.
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TKeira_Lea Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 12/9/08 8:34am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	A lot of times members come into the Lit forums and on page one you'll find fifteen threads that all lend toward topics for those disgruntled fans. That in and of itself can turn people around before they even dive into the discussions. Many of these disgruntled threads lie in the same vein, and I've often wondered why the mods don't combine topics. -----signature----- http://www.lominalecantina.com Dark Journey, the EU's version of a head fake current fanfic ~ Return to Bolis Island http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/29571370/p1/?19
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J_K_DART Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 12/9/08 9:09am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	The review forum is a good point, JM, but that was always designed for older books - and pretty much dwindled, for that reason, really. I suppose they could set up a separate forum for the same now, though, only for new releases... which, thinking about it, would make review threads much easier to find too. That's a good idea, potentially... -----signature----- "Victory without risk is like a pizza without pepperoni." "I like my pizzas without pepperoni." "Sir master of the long post" - Excellence
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Darth_Lex Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 12/9/08 9:10am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/9/08 9:20am (3 edits total) Edited By: Darth_Lex
	Jedimarine posted: If continuity is botched...SO WHAT...we will fix it...and heaven's knows we've got the Wookie-builders to support whatever is forged. LFL shows no love to continuity...fine...we love it, and we can make it work. The sooner we all learn that no one cares about this stuff as much as we do, the more comfortable we'll all be in the face of such unwieldy expenditures of timeline and slights of continuity. The people at LFL are not our friends...despite their pandering on TOS forums. And, bless their hearts, even some of the creative teams who do their very best to give us quality AND accuracy are going to run into obstacles where they'll have to choose between appeasing the vocal constructionist minority, and appealing to wider markets...I hate it, but I have to understand that. In Lit, we ignore nonconstructive voices from outside, even when it comes from those with intimate access to this universe, and we take what they give and make it serve US...and if it can't, well we do the best we can and move on. Being passive, and assuming LFL is going to get in right...assuming Abel catches everything or that the editors are taking hard lines with authors...it's not going to serve us as a community. If the torch on keeping this universe together has been dropped...and we appreciate...we need to pick it up...not cry that it's flickering in the mud. With all due respect - If you want to know what turns off many people to the Lit forum, it's this mentality right here. For lack of a better term, the "fanboy" mentality. That people who care about keeping a tight continuity are "better" fans than people who don't think continuity errors undermine enjoyment of Star Wars. That people who are experts in Wookieepedia-class minutiae from obscure sources that 99% of fans have never read are "better" fans than people who care more about the big picture. That Abel Pena, an obscure nobody to 99% of the fandom, is the epitome of EU contributors. That LFL should target EU material to the hardcore EU fanbase rather than the general fanbase. (Take this thread, for example. Why aren't there more stories featuring non-Jedi darksider villains? Because most of the general fanbase couldn't give a crap about obscure EU Force sects they've never heard of, or got a few offhand references in a few novels like the Aing-Tii). And most of all, that the hardcore fanboys need to "fix" the EU from LFL's mistakes. Until that mentality changes, and casual fans can feel like their perspective is welcome in Lit discussions, Lit will remain mostly an echo-chamber of like-minded fanboys (and fangirls). The funny thing is, there are some pretty successful fanfic writers who post in Lit. For all I might disagree with them on many EU issues, McEwok and Yobi don't just know SW facts - they can tell a good SW story. Yet I can't recall ever seeing them, or me, or any other fanficcer come into a Lit thread and say "I write fanfic and you don't, so that means I understand storytelling better than you, and that means my interpretation of the EU is better than yours." We've certainly argued storytelling points over the years, but I can't remember seeing anyone "play the fanfic card" as grounds for superiority. And I've never heard anyone complain about the arrogant fanficcers lording their fanfic storytelling expertise over the non-fanficcers. (To be clear, I'm not saying fanficcers can't be arrogant. Just that I've not seen our fanficcer-ness, as such, used as a tool to beat down others as "inferior fans.") By contrast, the "fanboy card" gets played all the time in Lit. It's a persistent argument, whether overt or subtle, that people who don't share that mentality "just don't get it." If you're really interested in changing the climate in Lit, you need to find a way to make all perspectives welcome, instead of perpetuating the constant derision directed at any perspective which doesn't automatically assume that the things fanboys care about (continuity, minutiae, "fixing" LFL's mistakes) are what Lit discussions should be all about... -----signature----- Return to Bolis Island (J/J wedding, post-LOTF) http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/29571370/p1/ ----- Christie Golden FTW!
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KissMeImARebel Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 12/9/08 9:42am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	I'm not a huge Lit poster, I tend to do a little posting everywhere around the boards, but here are my thoughts. - I personally think Lit should keep its informal status as an "anything EU" board: it's a great place for bringing together the various elements of the EU. I realize that can leave other boards a little depleated traffic-wise (ie, the games), but there's no perfect solution there. - I do think that maybe it is a good idea to re-open the old Lit Review Board. I personally used to post reviews in there: it was convenient for when I read older books, and a good resource. I think traffic could be increased if the threads weren't allowed to stay locked. The rule was that if you wanted a thread unlocked you as the user had to request it from a mod, which may have been a turn off for for someone thinking about making a quick casual review. Why not just have a mod check it once a month and "bump" any threads that have been locked? Is that really so hard? I think it would encourage more people to post, especially newer users. - On the issue of people complaining, fanboy rants and arguments in the Lit Thread. I'm personally cautious of anything that limits posters being allowed to express their feelings (ie being required to read a book before commenting), but I can see how rants can be annoying. Maybe mods (and us users in general) can encourage (which is not the same as mandate) more use of the EUC and the already partisan threads there, where like-minded people can vent or praise without tempers flaring. Didn't there used to be an NJO/LotF Critics Thread? I don't know if I ever posted on it but I know there at least used to be a pretty active one. Is that still open, or can it be re-opened and encouraged? -----signature----- Waru's Sword of Truth RebelMollom of The Kind
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rhonderoo Title: Former Head Admin Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 12/9/08 9:45am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	I agree on the continuity point. I don't care if some things change, but there are obviously quite a few who get upset...I mean really upset if one or two even minor things change and will do sideways flips to get a factoid to "fit" so that they can feel comfortable with the EU again. Now, there's nothing wrong with that, but I think both Lex and Jedimarine are making a good point. For those that do feel the need to be stricter with continuity, JM's advice will probably go a long way. For those of us who aren't really that concerned about it for the most part, would like to be able to discuss things without it degrading to a trading of factoids about little known characters and ship lengths (some loving sarcasm, there ). Those things have their place though, and people should absolutely feel like they should be able to discuss those things. But I do think at this time, with what's going on in the EU... we would be better served by having "Continuity" discussion for different subjects in their own threads. It doesn't have to be just one, but for those things like clones, or Vader's apprentices, or the Death Star plans... take those things to a side bar conversation when they start taking over book, game, comic, etc. discussion. If you look right now, there are a lot of threads that are dealing with Continuity and how things fit in a whole on the front page. -----signature----- DT421 FYI: You don't deal with me. I deal with you. Damned right the Jedi's fire has gone out of the universe. I was the bad-ass Class C extinguisher who snuffed them. - @darthvader (Darth Vader on Twitter)
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 12/9/08 3:50pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/9/08 3:53pm (1 edits total) Edited By: ChildOfWinds
	I hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting here. A friend suggested that I stop by to read this discussion, and I hope you don't mind if I briefly share my thoughts on the subject. I pretty much agree with everything that Beccatoria said in her posts, and she said it better than I could. So I'd just like to emphasize a few of her points that I feel especially strongly about. I don't think Lit is all that problematic as it is, considering the number and variety of posters, opinions, and issues. Is Lit always perfect? Of course not. But I'm one who feels strongly that it's better to err a bit on the side of expressive freedom, rather than restrictiveness. Like Becca, I'm one who "... would rather things occasionally accidentally go too far and get reigned in than things be kept highly moderated and occasionally not let far enough. Basically because I come here for fun and for me that necessitates a feeling that I can freely express myself and don't need to watch what I'm saying " as long as I don't offend or insult someone needlessly. I think restricting discussion and areas of discussion too much could cause other problems. It could create resentment and could cause some posters to leave the boards. I don't really see that as a good thing. I think conversations are better when there are many posters with a wide variety of opinions available. It might limit participation by other posters who may feel a bit intimidated and worried about whether what they want to say would be acceptable too. If the mods think that multiple threads for new releases would be useful, by all means, create them. I do think that would help because the one official thread becomes so massive that it's hard for someone who finishes reading the book a week or so after release to catch up with the conversations, and there are so many varied discussions about many different topics and concerns. I think the mods have been doing a great job of creating in-universe discussion threads in Lit lately. There have been some excellent conversations going on. I also think it's great when the mods join in the conversations in the various threads, when they can find the time. That helps to foster good posting by others, I think. Quiet or humorous reminders about getting back on topic when things have gone too far off topic for too many posts are helpful too. Sinrebirth , I'm afraid I'm not terribly thrilled about your idea to separate the Lit Boards into smaller groups. I like having one, big, happy Lit community. I think fragmenting the Lit board into smaller sub-boards would be detrimental to a sense of a SW Lit (or EU) Community. I think it would cause "traffic" to be reduced on some boards and some posters might only go to one board and never "sample" something in the other Lit communities. Plus, I wouldn't like to go back and forth from one board to another. I don't even like to go from Lit to Community and back. In my last comments, I'd like to echo that I appreciate that the Lit mods stood up for Lit posters on some issues that I think are important to most of us who post there even though they were being encouraged to change things. I wanted to stand up and applaud when I read the posts of Havac, Keralys, and Rogue Follower, especially with regard to allowing criticism of an author's professional work and about spoiler discussions. Spoiler discussions and speculation are fun for most of us and make Lit an exciting place when new books come out. Thanks for "listening". Child of Winds
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Rogue_Follower Title: Manager: • Lit Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 12/9/08 5:21pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/9/08 5:43pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Rogue_Follower
	For, reference, here's the Lit Review Forum. I don't believe that the locking of the forum has any correlation to an increase in negativity in Lit, for several reasons. 1) The LRF didn't even have the type of "negativity" that we're talking about. It's a series of poll threads, and if you look at the posts in them, they're usually quite short---much shorter than the ones in Havac-class review threads. The place wasn't exactly jumpin' with activity.... 2) The demographics don't match up. Our most, uh, vociferous posters weren't all that active in the LRF. Locking the thing didn't bring them into Lit---they were already in Lit. 3) The timeline doesn't match up. Lit's underlying issues have existed for a long time, and far predate our locking of the LRF. At this time, I am not in favor of re-opening the Lit Review Forum. Though we could definitely have made better use of it than we did, I feel that the review threads in Lit are more useful than the ones in the LRF. IMHO, the addition of the poll feature does not give any huge benefit. Plus, I'm not sure that moving all our "negative" threads over there would help the situation that much. The problems would still be there, just in a different place. Also, I am opposed to splitting Lit up by eras. I think that would be more hassle than it's worth and would pigeon-hole discussion that shouldn't really be pigeon-holed. Plus, we'd still need a generic Lit forum for general, cross-era discussions! See Fleet Junkies, Cartography, etc.
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Lord_Hydronium Title: Literature Gardener Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 12/9/08 6:46pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	I pretty much agree with becca: there really isn't some huge problem with Lit. For every complaint about how LOTF went or dislike of a certain character's characterization, there's speculation of how Shadows of Mindor will be awesome, or discussion on the events of the latest Legacy, or talk of how we need to bring back such and such thing from Marvel because boy, was it neat. If there is any problem, it's not in complaining about Star Wars; it's the sort of thing demonstrated in Darth_Lex's post, complaining about one's fellow fans. I will admit, there are posters who annoy the hell out of me because it seems like they post the exact same complaint in every post and don't add anything to the discussion. But I would take any number of their posts over one "Fans suck" post. Those add nothing, and at best they come off as self-righteous contempt for the fanbase. This has died down, fortunately, but it was no earlier than the middle of this year when it seemed like you couldn't so much as say you didn't like the cover of a book without half a dozen people leaping down your throat for "whining". Now, Lex is fine to post his comments here—after all, this topic is about the forum—but I think the attitude expressed is also present in Lit among a number of posters, and the biggest thing that makes it less fun. The fact is, we really don't need to care what LFL wants, or what would make money for them, or what they would think of an idea that we like. They're a business; we're customers. If we don't like what they're doing, it's our prerogative to say that. If we want to point out problems and fix them, why shouldn't we? If we think Abel's the best contributor to the EU, who the hell is anyone to say we shouldn't because he's relatively unknown? If our criticisms are about continuity, why are those any less valid than criticisms about characterization or plot holes or bad writing? The pigeonholing (and subsequent ignoring) of anything you, personally, don't care about as "fanboyism" does more harm to discussion than a thousand posts about how stupid LOTF is. Honestly, if you think people are being too negative, the best way to fix it is to set a positive example. Not castigate fans for disliking things you like, or caring about things you don't. Not waving away any points of criticism as minutiae. Not bringing in another kind of negativity to counter the first kind. But posting about Star Wars, and posting positively. If you think Lit needs to be improved, that's how you improve it. I edit on Wookieepedia, and we sometimes say this to people who spot things that need fixing: you can do it yourself. -----signature----- Great midis have little midis Swimming round inside 'em And little midis have lesser midis And so ad infinitum.
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Havac Title: Lit Mod of War Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 12/9/08 7:25pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/9/08 7:48pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Havac
	Darth_Lex posted: With all due respect - If you want to know what turns off many people to the Lit forum, it's this mentality right here. For lack of a better term, the "fanboy" mentality. That people who care about keeping a tight continuity are "better" fans than people who don't think continuity errors undermine enjoyment of Star Wars. That people who are experts in Wookieepedia-class minutiae from obscure sources that 99% of fans have never read are "better" fans than people who care more about the big picture. That Abel Pena, an obscure nobody to 99% of the fandom, is the epitome of EU contributors. That LFL should target EU material to the hardcore EU fanbase rather than the general fanbase. (Take this thread, for example. Why aren't there more stories featuring non-Jedi darksider villains? Because most of the general fanbase couldn't give a crap about obscure EU Force sects they've never heard of, or got a few offhand references in a few novels like the Aing-Tii). And most of all, that the hardcore fanboys need to "fix" the EU from LFL's mistakes. Until that mentality changes, and casual fans can feel like their perspective is welcome in Lit discussions, Lit will remain mostly an echo-chamber of like-minded fanboys (and fangirls). The funny thing is, there are some pretty successful fanfic writers who post in Lit. For all I might disagree with them on many EU issues, McEwok and Yobi don't just know SW facts - they can tell a good SW story. Yet I can't recall ever seeing them, or me, or any other fanficcer come into a Lit thread and say "I write fanfic and you don't, so that means I understand storytelling better than you, and that means my interpretation of the EU is better than yours." We've certainly argued storytelling points over the years, but I can't remember seeing anyone "play the fanfic card" as grounds for superiority. And I've never heard anyone complain about the arrogant fanficcers lording their fanfic storytelling expertise over the non-fanficcers. (To be clear, I'm not saying fanficcers can't be arrogant. Just that I've not seen our fanficcer-ness, as such, used as a tool to beat down others as "inferior fans.") By contrast, the "fanboy card" gets played all the time in Lit. It's a persistent argument, whether overt or subtle, that people who don't share that mentality "just don't get it." If you're really interested in changing the climate in Lit, you need to find a way to make all perspectives welcome, instead of perpetuating the constant derision directed at any perspective which doesn't automatically assume that the things fanboys care about (continuity, minutiae, "fixing" LFL's mistakes) are what Lit discussions should be all about... With all due respect . . . I don't see it. I've never seen a "continuity expert" try to pretend he was a better fan than somebody else. I've never seen anybody get put down for not having read Galaxy Guide 3. I haven't seen a rash of hardcore fans claiming they're better than casual fans. I haven't seen anyone try to run casual fans out of discussions or claim their perspective doesn't matter. I've seen hardcore fans wishing their desires were catered to more. I have no idea why that offends you. Are they to give up their own desires now? Is no one allowed to suggest ideas or points of view that a "casual fan" might not know about or share? Are a bunch of geeks on an internet Star Wars messageboard not supposed to talk like geeks on an internet Star Wars messageboard so that casual watchers of the films just wander in off the street? What are they supposed to talk about, then? I'm not getting it. Anyone posting on an internet Star Wars messageboard is a "fanboy" already. It's just a matter of degree and type. Do you think suppressing "fanboys" is really the way to make Lit grow as a healthy community? "No, sorry, you can't post about Star Wars minutiae so much. You know too much. You care too much. This board needs to be accessible to the really important fan: the casual one." See, that's exactly what you're doing. You're "fixing" one class of overvalued fan denigrating an undervalued one (even though I think that scenario isn't happening in Lit) by simply reversing the prejudice. I have to agree with Hydro: the attitude you're expressing has far more in common with the attitude you're criticizing than any expressions of "fanboyism". The only persistent, overt or subtle insinuations of inferiority I'm seeing here are from the people arguing that "fanboys" don't get it, they're too nerdy to see the real situation, and the person criticizing is far superior, because they're well above that kind of geekiness. They're "better" fans because they don't take it seriously and they're not penned up in some fanboy echo chamber. And the only time I see resentment from "fanboys" flare up isn't when someone knows less or cares less about the EU than them, or says so, but when someone comes in to criticize "fanboys" for caring. If you're finding Lit unpleasant, I don't think other posters' attitudes and posting habits are the only ones you need to consider. I certainly want to make Lit a place that's inviting for everyone and where fans of all levels of engagement and experience can find something to discuss. But nothing can change, or should change, the fact that we have a lot of very invested, well-read people posting here and they're going to gravitate to involved discussion. Lit needs to remain inviting to them and allow them things to discuss just as much as it does for the fanboys with a different emphasis (as I already said, everyone in Lit is a fanboy; it's just a matter of what kind). Vilifying them isn't going to help anybody. Hydro's absolutely right; if you want a different kind of discussion, the best way is to lead by example, not to shut down existing discussion. We'll keep in mind herding the more vociferous and off-topic discussions, as we've already said, but I absolutely don't think pointing to threads with more "niche" appeal and saying, "This is the problem, this kind of thread and this kind of attitude needs to go," is going to help Literature, and I think it fundamentally fails to grasp what not only the thread but more importantly Lit is all about and what actually makes it successful. EDIT: Having been edited grammar for. -----signature----- "Is there a captain's hat involved in this?"
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