Jedi Council Forums - Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)

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Author	Topic: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
Darth_Lex Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 12/9/08 8:44pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Lord_Hydronium posted: Honestly, if you think people are being too negative, the best way to fix it is to set a positive example. All right, but let me ask you this - if I, or someone of similar views, opened a thread for positive analysis of LOTF, do you really think the mods would keep it on point? Every single LOTF novel spoiler thread got bombarded by the same people raising the same complaints about the direction of the LOTF series in particular and the post-Vector Prime era in general. You can hardly find a thread about an issue of the Legacy comics without seeing similar versions of the same complaints. And there are plenty of people who have just flat out given up even reading the Lit threads on these books and comics - much less participating in them - because they don't want to deal with that kind of negativity in nearly every single thread on the stories they're positive toward. Nothing drives people away from a discussion faster than constantly being bombarded with complaints about the source they're trying to discuss positively. Pretty much every attempt at a positive discussion I've seen in Lit on LOTF or Legacy has been waylaid by posts from complainers. Now, if the mods will seriously enforce a (No Complaining Allowed) thread, then let's give it a shot. Until then, my perception of the ratio of complaining to favorable posts is very different from yours. Havac posted: With all due respect . . . I don't see it. Then you need to take a look in the mirror, because your dismissive, derisive posting style in many threads is exactly what I'm talking about. -----signature----- Return to Bolis Island (J/J wedding, post-LOTF) http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/29571370/p1/ ----- Christie Golden FTW!
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Robimus Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 12/9/08 9:00pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/9/08 9:18pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Robimus
	Wow I don't check in for a day and the place explodes in a bustle of activity Good work by Keralys meesa thinks So I picked up on a few posts I'll respond to with my take on the situation. Havac: I'm absolutely ready to intervene more and say, "Hey, let's limit this. OK, enough of this argument," if that's what you're saying is called for. I think it's called for too. Yes JK Dart: I don't see why you couldn't possibly keep the continuity debate on the one thread, frankly, and just keep ammending it so as to say 'this is the current focus'. By 'focus' you don't imply that something else couldn't get brought up, but just that this is the latest release and everyone's attention is there. I don't know how often Clone Wars stuff is being released, so maybe just keep that separate as its a separate medium? shrugs Just a thought; it makes it much easier for those continuity-minded individuals to enjoy those particular threads. The Author discussion thread would be, quite obviously, a thread for discussing that author - including any public statements they made. Because it's all on the one thread, it's easier to moderate; generally, certain ppl are more controversial than others, and it's easier to identify their threads as potential flashpoints. Is anyone really going to open a can of worms on a KJA thread? (Actually, correct answer: Yes, but it's less likely to be noticed by fellow posters, never mind Mods.) I personally like the idea of the seperate threads, perhaps one for IU discussion about a given book, one for OOU discussion, spoilers and the like. I don't know how well I think a seperate thread for each author would work as I think they could turn into anti-author threads as easily as promote useful discussion. Rogue Follower: Talk of author interviews are continuing I personally think this is a great way to go if you can get some of the authors on board. If authors wish to participate on the boards in general thats great, but like I mentioned previous I think sorting through pages of critism isn't going to be something most of them will enjoy doing. Should we be allowed our critism, absolutly, but it's where that leaves the VIP interaction thats the concern to me. RK Striker: I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to say, here. IU-only discussion is unfeasible, IMHO. Some things need to be called out as bad decisions. They can't be retconned away IU. I still think there is lots or room for both the love and critism, I just don't think it belongs in every thread. Thats kinda what we've had, OOU disscussion following certain topics around the threads. Like I previously mentioned I'd love to be able to discuss Darman and Etain's romance without hearing about how much the end of Order 66 sucked, how terrible her character is because of author POV, so on. Those issues have a place to be sure, just not in all threads. An IU only thread would eliminate this type of "author stalking"(for my lack of ability to come up eith a better word(s) ) Bec: The key is good moderating to make sure that lines don't get stepped over and that when they do, appropriate measures are taken. Honestly, I actually think our moderators do a pretty good job of that. The mods do what they can. They are of course volunteers with lives of their own to live. Thats said I think the question from chatting with Havac and Keralys is where exactly that line is drawn? I'd personally draw the line in the sand a bit sooner, It's not even so much of an issue of saying "Cease this discussion right now or else! " It could be as simple as a redirection with a polite "If you want to discuss this subject here is the thread to do so" type response. Bec: I also think that where appropriate, we need to be able to reference public statements authors have made about their EU work. If the Lit forum existed in a vacuum, we wouldn't...have a forum. Everything we discuss comes from LFL and its employees; as long as it's pertinent to the discussion (and it frequently is, see JJM's production notes or Sue Rostoni's posts on the Official Site) it should be allowed. OOU discussion and author statements should definity have a time and place, but its place is not in every thread which is unfortunatly what we often get. Jedimarine: I think the key for Lit is to refocus on the "In universe" topics...to again embrace the concept that WE are the place to go for EU in detail. Yes and yes More IU discussion is an idea I fully support. Sinre: Now, what I suggest is that we separate the Lit boards. The simplest way you're going to be able to get the full benefit of discussion without the majority of the cons is to separate the Lit boards I don't like this idea either, sorry Sinre. I want to be able to have threads following the Corellians across the entire timeline. As well something that Jacen Solo did now might well prove similar to something Anakin Skywalker did in the past. I think seperating the boards would discourage that type of discussion. KissMeImaRebel: - I'm personally cautious of anything that limits posters being allowed to express their feelings (ie being required to read a book before commenting). Even though I mentioned this I'm in agreement here. People should have a say. It's more a petpeeve of mine than anything else. I've always been disappointed to find out I've been talking at length with someone about a novel only to find out that their impressions are all based on what they read on the internetz and OOU comments of the authors. For example trying to discuss why someone didn't like Outbound Flight only to learn a couple pages into the discussion that they stopped reading Zahn's books halfway through Dark Force Rising because they didn't like his wirting style, themes, etc.... I don't think there is anything that can be done about this type of thing though short of slapping the "Must have read the book" restriction on all discussion, which is something I'm not for. It works well in the Review Thread, and could possibly work in a dedicated book discussion thread. Past that I think it has no place. Lord Hydronium: I pretty much agree with becca: there really isn't some huge problem with Lit. For every complaint about how LOTF went or dislike of a certain character's characterization, there's speculation of how Shadows of Mindor will be awesome, or discussion on the events of the latest Legacy, or talk of how we need to bring back such and such thing from Marvel because boy, was it neat. I think you point toward some of the problem though. Everyone apparently loves Stover(in fact I think a post in the Mindor thread makes that exact claim ). Most everyone loves Legacy. Its easy to point at those and say. "Look at all the goodwill and happy people " There is a lot of goodwill and I think the user base is largely respectful of each other, but there has been problems in certain area's of discussion, As much as a Karen Traviss thread has been at times overrun with negativity(some justified, some not) the same can be said of the gushing in the Mindor and Legacy comic threads. I'm not saying that someone shouldn't voice their love for what they like, only to do so in a respectful manner. Same with the critism. I remember posting a polite critism in one of the Legacy threads a long while back only to be met by instantly by a half dozen posts saying I was completely off base, didn't know what I was talking about and that I was calling John a bad writer. John then chimed in himself to mention how he could see where I'd get my impression, though he didn't agree with my take of the situation he was polite enough to consider it and was understanding of why I felt the way I did. It was a situation where the author himself was far more open to the discussion than the Legacy fans were. As Keralys has pointed out the gushing can sometimes be very similar to the hating if it takes on a life of its own. One last thing I'd like to mention is how important I feel the Lit Review Threads are to the board. It's great to be able to go into that thread and be able to read what a huge cross section of users, who've read the book, feel about the book. It also gives the oppurtunity to get many different views without having to go through page after page of replys, discussion and the like. Yes, we all get to be amatuer critics and its a great outlet for to voice how we feel having finished a book that we like or don't. Edit for Havac's new comment: With all due respect . . . I don't see it. I've never seen a "continuity expert" try to pretend he was a better fan than somebody else. I've never seen anybody get put down for not having read Galaxy Guide 3. I haven't seen a rash of hardcore fans claiming they're better than casual fans. I haven't seen anyone try to run casual fans out of discussions or claim their perspective doesn't matter. Are you sure your looking closely enough? I think your missing some stuff if you haven't seen these attitudes on occasion. I don't think its rampant but that attitude certainly does pop up at times.I've lost track of the amount of times I've been told I don't understand what Star Wars is about because I like author X or how my opinion doesn't count because its wrong when its clear facts from the text don't add up to a solid answer. Saying "I don't agree with you" is one thing. Saying "Your dead wrong and have nothing to contribute here" are two very different responses and I've honestly heard the second on several occasions in my time here. -----signature----- I am forever seeking the damutek of Hooley Krekk Oh, woe! Oh, misery! Oh, unhappiness. Hooley Krekk where are you? . http://www.cccomiccon.com http://www.actionfigurenews.ca
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Master_Keralys Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 12/9/08 9:11pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/10/08 5:35am (2 edits total) Edited By: Master_Keralys
	Lex, a few points. (Everyone else, I'll get there tomorrow; tonight = bed. ) I actually basically agree with Hydro and Havac here. I have never seen "fanboyishness" of the sort you're describing. I certainly don't fit the category (at least, I don't think I do; I don't even own an RPG supplement, and the closest I've come to playing the RPG is KotOR... and so on; you get the point). I've never seen anyone who's exceptionally knowledgeable tear someone apart who isn't. In fact, most of the bad behavior having to do with knowledge that I've seen/dealt with has been going the other direction, and frankly I haven't modded it hard enough when we have people contradicting canon and borderline insulting others for saying, "No, this is what canon actually says about this," and usually doing it in a fairly friendly and gentle way until someone gets up in their face about it. I will admit that there's a huge range in variance on how involved people are with the particulars of canon. I have to ask, though: why is that a bad thing? Why is having people deeply invested in canon a bad thing any more than having people not at all invested in canon is? Why is it bad to have people who think that the ongoing canon situation with TCW, with the Mandos, with Darth Bane, with almost any era except a few where we have exceptionally canon-minded authors, is a bad thing? I don't understand where you're coming from here, I guess. I do think we can moderate it more effectively, and should. But frankly, you jumped in here with attacks on people, and that's exactly the sort of thing we're trying to tone down. That feels like a disconnect to me. It may not be, but it definitely seems that way to me. Now, as for a "no complaining allowed," I will absolutely enforce such a thread, and I apologize if I've let some go by the wayside before. We are, alas, pretty busy in RL as well, and I can't monitor 24/7, but I will do my very best to keep a close eye on such a thread if you wish to start one. [Clarification: by that, I don't mean a thread where no dissent is allowed, but one where no rote complaining is allowed. If people want to discuss positively, great - but the point, as is mentioned below, is discussion, not just gushing. So I will firmly enforce a "serious discussion of what you think worked well (or didn't)" thread, where any drive-bys by the usual suspects will see edits and if necessary bans. But we're talking about doing that anyway.] Everybody else - tomorrow! ETA: one other thing: CoW - of course you're welcome in this discussion! I actually thought I messaged you; I meant to and I think it got missed in the flurry of PMs I sent. Edit2: for clarification and code mistakes. -----signature----- God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself. The craziest story ever told. The truest.
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PointGiven Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 12/9/08 9:48pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/9/08 10:31pm (2 edits total) Edited By: PointGiven
	Darth_Lex posted: All right, but let me ask you this - if I, or someone of similar views, opened a thread for positive analysis of LOTF, do you really think the mods would keep it on point? Every single LOTF novel spoiler thread got bombarded by the same people raising the same complaints about the direction of the LOTF series in particular and the post-Vector Prime era in general. You can hardly find a thread about an issue of the Legacy comics without seeing similar versions of the same complaints. And there are plenty of people who have just flat out given up even reading the Lit threads on these books and comics - much less participating in them - because they don't want to deal with that kind of negativity in nearly every single thread on the stories they're positive toward. Nothing drives people away from a discussion faster than constantly being bombarded with complaints about the source they're trying to discuss positively. Pretty much every attempt at a positive discussion I've seen in Lit on LOTF or Legacy has been waylaid by posts from complainers. Now, if the mods will seriously enforce a (No Complaining Allowed) thread, then let's give it a shot. Until then, my perception of the ratio of complaining to favorable posts is very different from yours. I'll agree with you on the LoTF spoiler threads. I stopped reading after a while because I was afraid they would start to dramatically color my view on them. But Legacy? I've seen nothing but praise. There are a few nitpicks here and there, mainly about the inclusion of Prequel-era Jedi, but it seems to be that you're just splitting hairs and looking for critcism where there quite frankly isn't any. Darth_Lex posted: Havac posted: With all due respect . . . I don't see it. Then you need to take a look in the mirror, because your dismissive, derisive posting style in many threads is exactly what I'm talking about. And this helps how? You're effectively doing what you rail against, in a thread that's supposed to fix this sniping. -----signature----- Think you can name the most important Sith Lords? Test your knowledge: http://www.sporcle.com/games/Caedus/sith_lords Also test your SW military knowledge with the Wars of Star Wars: http://www.sporcle.com/games/Caedus/wars_starwars
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Trip Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 12/9/08 9:59pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/9/08 10:10pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Trip
	Oh, don't mind Lex-- he's obviously trying to see how much irony can be packed into a single post. -----signature----- RIP Jacen's Crotch 1991 - 2008
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The2ndQuest Title: Manager: -Literature -LACWAC -Games Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 12/9/08 10:28pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/9/08 10:41pm (3 edits total) Edited By: The2ndQuest
	I know this was addressed a couple pages back, but it's late so I'll catch up on the last two pages tommorow: rhonderoo posted: Also, KOTOR. I realize a lot of fans play the game and read the comics. There is a place for discussion in Games for the game. The discussion in Lit should remain mostly on the comic. I realize there are things are inter-changable in the discussion, but when we're speculating on a game character and the discussion is hard for those who don't read the comics to follow, it should be gently directed back to the comics discussion. I have to echo Havac and MK's earlier comment that it's not feasible to separate the game and comic discussion. Don't gte me wrong- I understand where you're coming from, as I haven't had a chance to play my copy of the game yet, so a lot of the game-related speculation in regards to the comics tend to glaze over my eyes sometimes also. That said, games can be a significant part of the EU, especially KOTOR, and with the comic leveraging that game so much in terms of settings, subplots and characters, it even more impossible a task to consider. You see things like the Campaign guide and hints in the series proper that have repercussions for the story of the game and vice versa. JJM intentionally plays with a lot of that. In broader terms, it's no different than wondering about the effects of a new story on any other source. If FOTJ suddenly becomes something of a sequel to, say, the events of The Approaching Storm, I fully expect to see a lot of discussion will relate to TAS, even if many readers never read it due to low reccomendations. No different than LOTF suddenly making topics like the Shira/Lumiya issues of Marvel or The Emperor's Pawns article highly relevant. The only feasible solution I could suggest is to create a separate comics-only/no-games discussion thread. EDIT- Just glancing at the last couple comments here real quick, I also have never seen someone put down another user due to comaprison of the amount of "fanboy knowledge" one or the other possess. I think almost everyone understands that the EU is too massive for most anyone to fully or significantly acquire. The most EU knowledgeable folk tend to be focused on particular eras/subjects or general overall knowledge lacking specifics about many things. The closest thing I can think ofthat matches such comments would be moments when a user addresses another for dismissing a particular medium (be they comics, games, young adult titles, etc)- but for the purposes of discussion of Lit and the EU, they'd be correct in doing so (unless a thread specifies otherwise), so long as the manner in which they do so is civil. I think most Lit folk want the newer, less knowledgeable users to be part of things- we want new people to discuss these things with (as I would imagine the latest SW book coming up in discussion with most people's typical acquanances in real life would be much less common), want to get fresh insights into these works, etc. -----signature----- "When your future self tells you to do something, YOU DO IT." K'Kruhk, 140 ABY:"Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
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Havac Title: Lit Mod of War Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 12/9/08 11:20pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/9/08 11:36pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Havac
	Darth_Lex posted: Lord_Hydronium posted: Honestly, if you think people are being too negative, the best way to fix it is to set a positive example. All right, but let me ask you this - if I, or someone of similar views, opened a thread for positive analysis of LOTF, do you really think the mods would keep it on point? Every single LOTF novel spoiler thread got bombarded by the same people raising the same complaints about the direction of the LOTF series in particular and the post-Vector Prime era in general. You can hardly find a thread about an issue of the Legacy comics without seeing similar versions of the same complaints. And there are plenty of people who have just flat out given up even reading the Lit threads on these books and comics - much less participating in them - because they don't want to deal with that kind of negativity in nearly every single thread on the stories they're positive toward. Nothing drives people away from a discussion faster than constantly being bombarded with complaints about the source they're trying to discuss positively. Pretty much every attempt at a positive discussion I've seen in Lit on LOTF or Legacy has been waylaid by posts from complainers. Now, if the mods will seriously enforce a (No Complaining Allowed) thread, then let's give it a shot. Until then, my perception of the ratio of complaining to favorable posts is very different from yours. The problem, however, is that your hypothesized thread is rather vague. Positive analysis? Do you mean a thread for discussing and analyzing LOTF in which only positive comments are allowed? In that case, fan clubs belong in EUC; Lit has long been against, for very valid reasons, "You must have this opinion to post here" threads. If you mean a "What do you like about LOTF?" thread, of course we'd crack down on people bashing within it, though I remain as uncomfortable with "Just list things you like" threads as with "List things you don't like" threads, and I'd be inclined to lock it as a favorites thread from which no actual discussion is going to come. If you mean a thread that's about analyzing LOTF, and not complaining about it, some criticism is of course going to be part of that; extraneous bashing would be moderated, but it can be a hard line to draw between what's criticism and what's just bashing of the series. After this discussion, we'll certainly try to clamp down on this harder, but it remains a judgment call and some of what you might consider complaining is probably going to slip through. Darth_Lex posted: Havac posted: With all due respect . . . I don't see it. Then you need to take a look in the mirror, because your dismissive, derisive posting style in many threads is exactly what I'm talking about. So a lengthy post discussing my disagreement with your point got me a one-line instruction not to be dismissive and derisive? Do you even see the irony there? If you have a problem with my posting, I'd be happy to take this to PMs and see what exactly your problem is, but "take a look in the mirror" was the entire point of both Hydro's and my posts. Can you honestly tell me you've done that, or are willing to do that? I have to agree with Quest: I just don't see what you're talking about. If that makes me the worst poster ever, so be it. I don't see anyone putting down people for being "less of a fan" -- again, the only time I see "fanboys" get upset about this issue at all is when someone else is arguing with them that they shouldn't care so much, or complaining that they're silly for getting annoyed at this bit or that of continuity and should just be quiet, or attempting to tell them Star Wars really isn't for people like them who care about continuity, in which case I think you've misidentified who's high-horsing whom. EDIT to Rob: Yes, I've certainly seen people on all sides of every issue make "Well, you don't get Star Wars," or "But just look at X; that's the whole point of Star Wars," or "Star Wars is about X, Y, and Z, period. If you don't buy that, you don't get it," arguments. But I don't see how that's connected in any significant way to the issue of "fanboyishness" -- every single poster out there has some idea of what Star Wars is "about" or what it takes to "get" Star Wars and we get that kind of post from all quarters of opinion. It's not a problem restricted to or particularly symptomatic of any "continuity fanboy" mindset and it's not anything I've seen significantly or disproportionately coming from "continuity fanboys", so I don't see how it's related to vilifying them as having some sort of superiority complex or being the source of either Lit's problems or that particular problem. -----signature----- "Is there a captain's hat involved in this?"
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Lord_Hydronium Title: Literature Gardener Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 12/9/08 11:49pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Darth_Lex posted: All right, but let me ask you this - if I, or someone of similar views, opened a thread for positive analysis of LOTF, do you really think the mods would keep it on point? Every single LOTF novel spoiler thread got bombarded by the same people raising the same complaints about the direction of the LOTF series in particular and the post-Vector Prime era in general. You can hardly find a thread about an issue of the Legacy comics without seeing similar versions of the same complaints. And there are plenty of people who have just flat out given up even reading the Lit threads on these books and comics - much less participating in them - because they don't want to deal with that kind of negativity in nearly every single thread on the stories they're positive toward. Nothing drives people away from a discussion faster than constantly being bombarded with complaints about the source they're trying to discuss positively. I question the whole idea of "positive analysis". Analysis, unless you want an only IU thread, involves criticism. If you make a thread that says "People can only say good things", all you end up with is an echo chamber, the same kind of "echo-chamber of like-minded fanboys" that you take issue with at the top of this page. And if you think the rest of Lit is an echo chamber as well, great; now you have two echo chambers and no real discussion. So the only thing making "no complaints" threads does is give those people a shield to hide from dissenting opinion behind. It doesn't foster discussion, it just makes it more difficult to have a real, honest discussion on the merits and demerits of a work or author. Good discussion has to allow a mix of positive and negative, even if in practice everyone ends up on one side or the other. What are people going to discuss in a novel thread but the novel? If they think it's crap, should they not say it because people who like it can't stand seeing other people dislike it? No one's stopping you from posting positive things, so just do it. And "post positively" doesn't mean "attack people with negative opinions" either, which is just making negativity in a new form. Someone once made a "Post positive things about LOTF", but started it talking about the "whiners" who didn't like it and how bad they were. That doesn't help, and if "no complaints" threads start out on those lines, it's no wonder you don't see them stay around long. Look, I'm not saying you have to agree with the critical posts. I'm not saying you have to like what they're saying. I'm not even saying you can't respond if you disagree. But either trying to keep them from saying them at all, dismissing their views as "complaining" and "whining", or attacking the posters themselves isn't a solution either. It's actually more annoying than the posts being responded to, only at least they're still discussing Star Wars. -----signature----- Great midis have little midis Swimming round inside 'em And little midis have lesser midis And so ad infinitum.
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Robimus Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 12/10/08 1:52am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/10/08 1:53am (1 edits total) Edited By: Robimus
	Here's an example from a recent enough Lit thread of what I felt waqs an instance where users were being talked "down to" instead of "with": "Subjectivity in the arts is the product of the proletarianization of the greatest things in human society. Nothing is held sacred any longer because any fool with an opinion feels as if he has an equal right to it. With respect, he does not. " This basically read to me as a fancy way of saying " You don't know what your talking about, you don't have the right to talk about it. Shut Up " It may not be an example of this "fanboy superiority" being reffered to, but it was pretty rude in my book. The poster didn't agree with the other users and resorted to that sort of statement. I'm not trying to "vilify" anyone here, just mentioning something I've seen come up on rare occasions. It really all ties in to the firmer moderation issue more than a seperate issue onto itself. I don't feel anyone in Lit should be telling anyone else "You don't have a right to your opinion", yet thats what the users in this thread were told. I think we're all in agreement here that if the situation comes up it needs to be dealt with. I think the whole "You don't understand Star Wars" type statement is tied to it certainly, not from talking as a "snobbish continuity fanboy"(what ever that may be ), but just from a respect factor to your fellow posters. I've screwed up at times as well, said things I shouldn't have, been frustrated. Heck, I've even issued the odd posted apology when someone voices that I've upset them. I think its mostly just a point of a little more goodwill at times toward your fellow board memebers that will go a long way. A little "I agree to disagree with you" goes along way and is a lot nicer than. "You don't know what your talking about, and you really don't have the right to that opinion." -----signature----- I am forever seeking the damutek of Hooley Krekk Oh, woe! Oh, misery! Oh, unhappiness. Hooley Krekk where are you? . http://www.cccomiccon.com http://www.actionfigurenews.ca
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Master_Keralys Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 12/10/08 5:39am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	A clarifier from earlier, which I just edited into my post but wanted to put here for transparency. Havac covered a lot of what I meant, here, but I want to post it anyway, regarding enforcing a "no complaining allowed" thread: [Clarification: by that, I don't mean a thread where no dissent is allowed, but one where no rote complaining is allowed. If people want to discuss positively, great - but the point, as is mentioned below, is discussion, not just gushing. So I will firmly enforce a "serious discussion of what you think worked well (or didn't)" thread, where any drive-bys by the usual suspects will see edits and if necessary bans. But we're talking about doing that anyway.] Rob - yeah, I do think that was over the line if it crossed into directly attacking other users, and maybe on the edge otherwise. I would point out that what you're bringing up is not an issue of fanboyishness; it's an issue of intellectual snobbery - and those are vastly different things. As a side note... guys, we please keep this conversation civil? The little jabs at each other are not helping. Right now, that particularly means that I'm looking at Lex for that little one-liner at Havac and Trip for his "witty" response to Lex. Let's not, please? We'd actually like to hammer some things out, here, and turning this into a context of who can snipe at the other one completely defeats the purpose while making exactly the point that Rhonderoo and Dingo mentioned in the first place. -----signature----- God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself. The craziest story ever told. The truest.
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Darth_Lex Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 12/10/08 6:19am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/10/08 6:32am (2 edits total) Edited By: Darth_Lex
	Robimus posted: Are you sure your looking closely enough? I think your missing some stuff if you haven't seen these attitudes on occasion. I don't think its rampant but that attitude certainly does pop up at times.I've lost track of the amount of times I've been told I don't understand what Star Wars is about because I like author X or how my opinion doesn't count because its wrong when its clear facts from the text don't add up to a solid answer. Robimus is not the only person who feels this way. Far from it. And what is the response? Two Lit mods claiming they've "never" seen that occurring, a third insisting it's not connected disproportionately to certain voices in the forum. You're entitled to your perception of the atmosphere in the forum, of course, but you will not successfully draw wider participation in Lit if your response to concerns like these is to insist they're imaginary. There are plenty of fanficcers, for example, who happily engage in discussion of the books/comics, plots, storylines, characterizations, etc. over in Fanfic but won't post in the same discussions in Lit because of exactly this dynamic. If you're seriously interested in trying to figure out what might be dysfuncational about Lit, you need to start by acknowledging the possibility that there exists a very real, widely held perception that Lit is a predominantly negative place where criticism of the profic is far more welcome than positive contributions. Again, you're entitled to your view that the current atmosphere in Lit is the kind of Lit forum you want to have. That's fine; it's your call. Lord_Hydronium posted: Good discussion has to allow a mix of positive and negative, even if in practice everyone ends up on one side or the other. I agree. But good discussion is also limited, and not all comments are equally relevant or on topic. For example, imagine I open a thread about Jacen's characterization in LOTF. In the opening post, I explain that I want to address his characterization in terms of the story arc internal to LOTF, taking the buildup in NJO and DN as a given. Yet is there any doubt such a thread would immediately be waylaid with complaints about JINO? Not every thread marginally related to an issue is an appropriate place to raise one's complaints about the profic. We should be able to have discussions about specific aspects of LOTF without having to wade through generic criticisms of NJO-DN-LOTF. We should be able to have discussions about the Legacy era without wading through the same rote complaints about how it's set too close in time to LOTF and ruins Luke Skywalker's legacy. We should be able to discuss the new Clone Wars material without every thread degenerating into the same discussion of the timeline snafus/fubars created by it. I'm not saying we should have "happy posts only" threads. But I do think the mods need to be much stricter about keeping threads on topic - on point criticism is fine, but too many discussions of material end up mired in extraneous criticism. -----signature----- Return to Bolis Island (J/J wedding, post-LOTF) http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/29571370/p1/ ----- Christie Golden FTW!
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beccatoria Title: Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 12/10/08 7:24am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/10/08 7:27am (1 edits total) Edited By: beccatoria
	I've never seen anyone beat down another poster for having less familiarity with canon either. I've seen information offered. I've seen posters telling other posters that various things actually occured, but not usually in tones that indicate (to me) a belief that the other person is a worse fan somehow. I say this as someone who really doesn't have a particularly wide understanding of canon. But I also don't mind when someone else brings up something I'm not familiar with to argue a point with me. What I have seen, and what I think Robimus was talking about (apologies if I'm wrong), is people getting into fights and snark over different interpretations of canon. Or getting into fights about what canon is "best" or best represents Star Wars. When these issues cross the line and enter into personal attacks or pointless insults, that's a point when the mods can step in, but it's also something very different to Lex's original post claiming Lit was heaving with canon snobs. As Keralys points out, intellectual snobbery and negative fanboyish bullying are two very different things. The former, I have occasionally seen, the latter, not so much. Frankly, I don't think that anyone on this thread has brought up a single issue that can be dealt with in any way other than more moderator intervention, should the mods deem it appropriate. It's all hinging on tone, tendencies, vague beliefs and perceptions and opinions, none of which can be distilled into concrete and absolute rules. Finally, perhaps this will be an inflammatory suggestion, and I honestly don't mean to insult anyone, but I'm not sure that we need to be worried about Lit being welcoming to absolutely everyone. I will try to explain what I mean without sounding so dismissive. Lex brings us two groups of people he believes will not visit Lit because of the atmosphere. 1) Casual fans. The Lit forum is not set up for casual fans. I specifically chose to join this community rather than the Official Site because I liked the level of attention to detail and general EU knowledge that was present. I was looking for a forum with a strong tradition of debate and critical analysis. To be honest, I think as soon as you actually bother to sign up to an internet forum about Star Wars you lose your right to consider yourself a "casual fan". I'm with Havac. We're all fanboys (well, I guess I'm a fangirl), it's just a matter of degree. 2) Fanficcers. This is a little harder to parse without sounding like an elitist, but I will try. I have the utmost respect for the communities and traditions of other boards like Fanfic and the EUC. I welcome any increased traffic between the boards. Yes, I wish it were the case that everyone felt welcome everywhere. But different communities with different goals have different atmospheres. In the real world, there are places I choose not to hang out because I don't like the atmosphere or the cultural traditions associated with those places. On the internet, similarly, different sites, and even different forums, have different "cultures". I don't hang out much on the Fanfic boards, and this actually isn't because I have anything against fan fiction, or even that I don't read it. I mean, I don't read it that much because I don't hang out there, but I honestly believe that writing fan fiction is a great creative outlet, that it's an important fan-cultural art form and that it should be encouraged. I have tried to get into it a few times. But...I don't really like hanging out on the fan fic boards because the culture there isn't one that appeals to me. Same for the EUC. I actually miss the blunter, more critical atmosphere of Lit. My perception of Fanfic (which is just that; my perception, but I guess I'm as entitled to it as Fanficcers who rarely come to Lit are entitled to an opinion on Lit) is that it's not a place that encourages rigorous analysis or produces the kinds of stories I'm interested in reading. But I'm not about to start demanding that Fanfic start allowing more criticism and a wider range of genres and ratings and change its culture so that I feel more welcome there. Because it's absolutely and completely valid to have a community with that culture. I just realised it wasn't my preference and so chose to spend more of my time in an environment more suited to those preferences. Yes, Lit has a tradition of actively encouraging critical discussion, and I'm starting to wonder if it's actually possible to remove the perception that that makes it "negative" without fundamentally changing the critical portion of Lit's function. With due respect to the fanficcers, it sounds like they have a community where they are able to engage in exactly the kind of discussion that they find fulfilling and useful, and I wholeheartedly support that. But, while I'm wary of sounding isolationist (Seperatist?!), perhaps it's a good thing that there are various environments available on TFN so that we can gravitate to the ones that cater to us best? I don't deny that many people feel Lit has problems and that's something we all need to discuss. But I do wonder if failing to appeal to people who might not actually be its target audience is one of them? I know that I'd hate to see Lit lose its analytical emphasis. And I don't think anyone here is really arguing that it should. I'm just wondering if that emphasis is partially responsible for the negative perceptions and if that's the case, there's not a lot we can do. -----signature----- legatus imperatoris britanniæ superior REMEMBER: X-WING: WEDGE'S GAMBLE DISCUSSION STARTS IN DECEMBER! Han's a girl, so I got a Golden Ewok.
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 12/10/08 8:37am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Random thoughts in no particular order: How about posters being allowed to set 'house rules' for a thread in the opening post that acts as a minimum guidance for it? Frankly the notion of people replying to, for example, a thread entitled: "What did you like about the NJO?" - with what they despised is simply a lack of basic courtesy - especially as even in the EU you find the worst, there will likely be something you liked in it - there may not be much - but there will be something. I don't know how we'd go about achieving but I like Keralys' concept of breaking the link between discussion and authors, authorial intention etc, in effect - this is the material, let's discuss it as it stands with all manner of interpretations permitted. I would suggest Lit has a problem at present and that is a degree of polarisation between fans I have not seen previously, there are a few infamous threads in Lit at the moment and I'm loathe to name names nor do I think I need to, where the arguments have become both circular and entrenched with neither set of particpants able or willing to accept that this is an enduring difference of opinion. I've taken to throwing in occasional posts that mock the affair because of the level it's gone to. It used to be so that people did not require others to subscribe to their opinion as a measure of its validity, that no longer seems to be so. At the same time there's a weird expansion of the attitude that people don't need to read material to other concepts, such as how politics operates - for example the abuse of the term moral relativism is pretty staggering. Of course this wouldn't matter if people were open to the notion they could be mistaken on an area, that what they think is the case is not necessarily so. For anyone who asks: Yeah, I've made provisional comments on LOTF, don't care for the central concept and voted with my wallet on that, but in, say discussion on the nature of Jacen's end: I have asked Qs about how it was done and phrased comments with provisional terms. As such I don't think banning comments from people who haven't read the material would really work as a total rule, there will be cases that are out-right wrong and ought to be edited - but there is an opportunity to encourage someone to actually try a story: e.g. "I just read Traitor - it was horrible, how does this guy get such a rep?". Likely responses would be that Traitor is not actually that representative of Stover especially when set next to Shatterpoint and ROTS, which may incline the original poster to try those works. At the same time, given the nature of the internet, people are going to go by spoiler summaries, reviews. Talking of the internet, let's mention blogs and other sites. It is inevitable that people are going to acquire information from a wide and varied set of sources. What sometimes gets forgotten is, at the level of blogs and news and official websites, the net is one big public forum - which is where the trouble starts. Karen Traviss was un-wise to put that infamous comment about fans on her blog and not expect it to be noticed - given how the net tends to operate. (I would also say the outrage was more than justified in response as well.) At work, my workmates and I tend to have a somewhat twisted sense of humour - some jokes are emailed, others are not - why? Because they would never be suitable for putting in written electronic form, there are nuances of verbal expression that make them work that cannot be replicated. And then there are thoughts and outlooks you should never write down in public no matter how hacked off you're feeling. Call it a sense of being net-aware, or netiquette, anything really - just have a sense of ownership and responsibility for what you post and write, be aware of where you are writing and how - it's not much really, but a whole lot of people don't do it. LFL and SW as a business: I don't think there is anyone who doesn't get this, the crux point is whether or not that LFL is a business automatically justifies creative decisions as being good, if profit is the sole indicator of success for the EU then close Lit down because there's nothing to discuss. Ah, but there are perceptions beyond and outside of profit aren't there? What may be a success in one sense may not be in another. Finally: Being too close to the material: Over the last 3 years I've taken a step back from the EU, I've quit one era as I wasn't enjoying it. What I've found is that in doing so I'm enjoying other eras more and am not as concerned about the EU as others are, I'm not so tightly bound up with it. Certainly the end of LOTF was that latest in a line of schism-makers that have split Lit into pieces, it's about 6 months old now and will likely fade but FOTJ will be the litmus test of that. On the one hand, fans who care about the material, the characters and the developments, without a passion for SW none of us would be fans - but is it also possible to take this a bit too far? I thnk so and that may be one of the problems for Lit. The major problem is a lot of this is both individual and cultural and, for the most part, created outside of Lit. Lit is more the arena for the exhibiting of outlooks, views, it's the sum of what people bring to it - how to change that mix or how it operates is extremely difficult. -----signature----- Excellence: "You are the forum's Quick Ben." SW EU fans: John Ostrander needs your help! http://www.comix4sight.com
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TKeira_Lea Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 12/10/08 8:38am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	becca: Casual fans. The Lit forum is not set up for casual fans. I think the term casual fan is being misunderstood. I'd say anyone who wanders into TFN is generally a fan. We're all fans. But there is a subset of fans who are very serious, to the point that they tend to post in a dismissive manner, even to the point of enjoying lording their knowledge over others or with a tone that portrays sheer joy from proving someone is wrong. Then there is Lit phenomenon of the rabid fan - this is a person who is so into one character or one era - that they cannot see anything objectively. In these cases, the rabid fan jumps into any discussion that brings up their favorite subject and posts up a storm about their passion to the point it derails the discussion, over and over again. FWIW, the mods try to wrangle these types under control, but I think more could be done. So truly "casual" isn't about being less of a fan, just a different type of fan. If someone spent 7 bucks on a book then read it once they have just as much right to weigh in on a discussion about it as the person who read it ten times over to glean every factoid for a Wookieepedia article. My perception of Fanfic (which is just that; my perception, but I guess I'm as entitled to it as Fanficcers who rarely come to Lit are entitled to an opinion on Lit) is that it's not a place that encourages rigorous analysis or produces the kinds of stories I'm interested in reading. You couldn't be more wrong. I'm not going to get into a us-vs-them dynamic because I think that's the wrong course. The reason fanfic regulars were brought up at all is they are fans, just like you. I think it's fair to ask why some don't feel comfortable in Lit. There are literature related discussions in Fanfic Resource that probably belong in Lit. Those discussions do contain rigorous analysis, often with deeper discussion than a similar thread in Lit manages, but they happen outside of Lit because of a wariness of posting styles that are common in Lit. As a rule, a user who just pops into a Resource thread to add nothing but a snide insult or to say "You're wrong" and add nothing more is discouraged in Resource. The problem with the discussion as a whole is that your only getting voices from those who do post in Lit, and generally most of those that do aren't going to see a problem with the status quo. Generally, too, over the history at TFN issues are brought to Comms and there is always an initial tendency from many to say, "I don't see it." But if it's gotten here, then it's fair to assume that some people do see a problem. -----signature----- http://www.lominalecantina.com Dark Journey, the EU's version of a head fake current fanfic ~ Return to Bolis Island http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/29571370/p1/?19
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 12/10/08 8:47am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	TKeira_Lea posted: The problem with the discussion as a whole is that your only getting voices from those who do post in Lit, and generally most of those that do aren't going to see a problem with the status quo. Generally, too, over the history at TFN issues are brought to Comms and there is always an initial tendency from many to say, "I don't see it." But if it's gotten here, then it's fair to assume that some people do see a problem. Hmm, what status quo are you referring to here? The EU? Or one of the forums? -----signature----- Excellence: "You are the forum's Quick Ben." SW EU fans: John Ostrander needs your help! http://www.comix4sight.com
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