Jedi Council Forums - Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)

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Author	Topic: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
TKeira_Lea Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 12/11/08 5:58am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Havac: OK, so it's something specific to certain releases -- not a perpetual problem, but something that can flare up at times. I can see where you're coming from. I agree -- when something contentious comes out, it can take over the boards for a week. But generally, a plethora of threads about the same thing will be shut down in fairly short order, so I'm still not sure what kind of domination you're talking about. Again, I'd like more specific examples than "yeah, it was there." I can't understand your complaint if I don't know what we're talking about. If I want to point out something far off to someone, I don't vaguely wave my hand across the horizon and say, "It's out there." I've got to know what you're talking about specifically before I can give you any kind of specific reply -- otherwise we're just going to sit here frustrating each other the whole time because we can't seem to get our points across. You know I went back looking through pages to give you a concrete answer but it’s just impossible unless there’s a way to recreate Page Ones on the times I clicked and thought, “Oi vey! How many threads can there be griping about the Mandos or Jacen’s fall, etc.” The fact is they are my impressions and the impressions I’ve heard from others; and the fact is you agreed above that contentious points seem to take over the boards. So really I’ve made my point and you’ve agreed with my impression. I’m not a mod, but there are times I’ve seen first page and felt like threads could have been shuffled together. Next time I see this I’ll let you know, if you’re interested Please; I've never suggested your opinion doesn't count. I've said it's a different kind of opinion than that of someone who's posting in Lit every day and part of the community. Well actually you did. I participate in Lit. Maybe not up to your standards, but your post classifies opinions as “inside” and “outside” and therefore you’re qualifying their worth. And this isn’t an isolated case of you classifying opinions. You dismissed my opinion in a recent discussion because I was a fan of a certain character, and derided another user’s ability to actually read a story as a way to class them out of the discussion. Let’s compare that to your request for me to clarify when these good old days of VIP harmony existed. While my posting status came to bear when you needed to classify my “outside” status; it certainly wasn’t relative in regards to the length I had been around TFN. Dingo came in to explain that the good old days was before your time. But he didn’t go out of his way to say, “Yeah, well you’re a relative newbie so you wouldn’t know about that.” He just answered the question. What I’m getting to here is a matter of style. You see nothing wrong with putting people in boxes in a manner that suggests superiority or inferiority and making sure the poster you’re addressing, as well as everyone else knows that. Obviously you think that style is okay, perhaps because that’s what you’ve seen in your three years at TFN. In Resource, say one user addresses another user by prefacing, “Well we know what ‘ship you favor…” then goes on to finish the post, that type of talk isn’t really acceptable because it’s decisive. Not only that, such decisive interaction is discouraged, not only by the mods, but also by the community as well. And I’m certainly not suggesting we can’t be contentious but really it’s about arguing the point and not the person. If your position has merit, whether I’ve posted two or two thousand times, your position will hold up against mine without qualifying the value of my opinion or that of others. Keralys: That's not what he's saying. He's asking you to do exactly what you're asking him to do, and nothing more: to look through a different set of eyes and to consider that you might be wrong. You see, that’s the problem in and of itself. You and Havac are turning this into a right or wrong. It’s not about right or wrong. Am I right because I liked Invincible and those who didn’t like it wrong? No. Those are just different opinions. You’re opinion is that things are fine. My opinion is that things could be better. The fact remains users like Dingo, who has been a valuable member of TFN for years, don’t want to come into Lit. The fact remains a Lit mod recently resigned and expressed frustration with the forum. The fact remains that there are posts all over other forums where people have said, “Yeah I don’t go to Lit because it’s too harsh there.” The fact remains that VIPs like book authors and editors don’t come around like the used to. In my opinion, this means there is room to improve. By saying it’s fine, you’re saying all these things are okay. You say later you want proof, that’s on me to give you concrete details. Do you deny these facts above? You’re a Lit mod; you haven’t tried to deny that authors feel uncomfortable or that you don’t understand the reasons why. You were around when dp4m quit so I think you understand the specifics of his complaint. And yes, as Havac so astutely pointed out I’m not a Litizen. Why is that? I read the threads daily because once in a while I see something that inspires me about SW. And every so often I find a discussion that I’d like to put my two cents into. If Havac cared to scrutinize my post history a little closer he might have noted that I have participated on a broader level in Lit type discussions in Resource – character discussions, book discussions, timeline discussions, etc. Where there and not here? Because the atmosphere is different. At the same time I know there are times when I would have liked to participate in Lit discussions but they had already degenerated into LFL sucks, Traviss sucks, theyhaveruinedSWforever! Then it becomes a moment when I pause and think it’s already gone so far downhill any relevant input I make will be lost. I also have heard that sentiment expressed by others. I come into Comms and see a discussion about the nature of the Lit forum and I think here’s an opportunity to weigh in so perhaps more people would feel like posting in Lit. On a personal level, it’s because I would love to see a day when an author felt like he/she could come in and participate in a discussion about their latest release. -----signature----- http://www.lominalecantina.com Dark Journey, the EU's version of a head fake current fanfic ~ Return to Bolis Island http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/29571370/p1/?19
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 12/11/08 6:13am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Darth_Lex posted: Actually, there's several full pages' worth of discussion in the Mindor thread about the continuity issues implicated by the identity of the novel's antagonist. (Sorry, I'm not sure how much of that is considered spoilers, so I hope I'm being oblique enough while still being clear what I'm referring to.) And these aren't even actual continuity issues yet - they're anticipated ones. Yet it's already being dissected, before there are even spoilers about how it's actually handled or addressed in the novel. Yes, there's excitement for a Stover book, and excitement to see him handle OT era Big Three (plus Lando!), but when something like half the thread is addressed to continuity dissection rather than story or characters, or general excitement, it sends a message about the priorities of the forum... Normally, however, DR release a Dramatis Personae or give a few titbits ahead of publication, there's far less of that with Mindor which means people are going to discuss more of what is known and will look at sources of info ahead of getting the book. Once Mindor is out I think you'll see discussion of the story and characters dominating the thread. The other point I'd make is I haven't had the sense that the book is being discussed negatively, rather it's a positive sense of anticipation due to both the nature of the material being covered and the author writing. I don't see why this is a bad thing. -----signature----- Excellence: "You are the forum's Quick Ben." SW EU fans: John Ostrander needs your help! http://www.comix4sight.com
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Master_Keralys Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 12/11/08 6:22am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Ben hits it on the head on this one, Lex. The continuity discussion has been almost entirely positive in the Mindor thread; it's essentially anticipation. While I don't think separating the continuity discussion out is inherently a bad idea - quite the contrary, and we're discussing it - I don't think the Mindor discussion is overwhelmingly hurt by it. You'll also note that I put a damper on that conversation and said, "Hey, let's actually talk about the book in the book thread." Problem solved, by moderator intervention, just like you want... so what's the issue? I'll be back to address other stuff later. The only thing I do want to say right now is this: TKeira_Less, I challenge you to find one time here where a person on Lit staff has said, "This is fine; we don't think there's any problem here," in this thread. You won't. We may differ about the extent to which there's a problem, and we may ask to you demonstrate that the problem is to the extent that you allege it, but we're not saying that there's no problem, just that the problem might not be as intense as you say it is, and we'd like to be convinced rather than just taking you at your word. It's not that we don't trust you; it's that we don't see it, and as such, we're going to need reasonable evidence that it's true before we change our minds. -----signature----- God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself. The craziest story ever told. The truest.
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Darth_Lex Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 12/11/08 6:33am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/11/08 6:40am (2 edits total) Edited By: Darth_Lex
	Well, obviously we'll have to agree to disagree on the Mindor thread, then. I hope at least you can make an effort to understand why a thread like that is offputting to many "outsiders" to Lit, even if, at the end of the day, the decision is made that this is how Lit should operate. -----signature----- Return to Bolis Island (J/J wedding, post-LOTF) http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/29571370/p1/ ----- Christie Golden FTW!
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beccatoria Title: Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 12/11/08 6:59am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	TKeira_Lea posted: becca: I still haven't really heard any concrete criticism that doesn't boil down to, "you guys are too negative," and I'm honestly not sure how you expect to change that if it really represents how people feel. Actually it's not about "you guys are too negative." Everyone is entitled to their opinion - negative, positive or otherwise ambivalent. And I certainly don't think people should be silenced. It's about redirection of tone and posting technique so that Lit isn't a place where fans address other fans to the point that posts are full of snarks and personal attacks. So what, people disagree but in Lit it's often personal. But that basically boils down to, "you guys are being too negative," just in terms of methods of expression and tone rather than objective opinions. And again, that's a subjective judgement that's impossible to distill into an absolute rule. So the only solution is more active moderation which I've already stated I would support. And as I've also stated, I think that yes there are times when people cross the line, but I also think that the cultural tone of Lit is simply more critical than some people prefer in a community. I'm absolutely not suggesting that we ignore poor behaviour and write it off as, "Oh, Lit's just like that," which is why I support our mods in more actively weeding out actual bad behaviour. But I'm also wary of writing off Lit's entire character and tone, and indeed its appeal in some cases, as the root problem. Because then we wouldn't have Lit. TKL posted: This could happen any number of ways - 1) VIPs and mods consider that the masses will follow your example. They see wordy diatribes posted by VIPs on the woes of The Trials of Bombad Jedi, then they're all going to think that's how things go. They see mods engage in discussion with a dismissive tone, they're going to think that's okay. They see colors announce he/she will enjoy putting down the previous poster's theories, they will think this is a place where it's fun is to be had by smacking down others. Obviously if mods and/or VIPs are behaving poorly this is something that needs to be addressed and is a very serious issue. I'm also aware that it's very difficult to "call out" anyone in this environment and that doing so may be inflammatory, but at the same time, I honestly can't think who you'd be referring to. We have four mods and a small handful of non-EU-writer VIPs who are regular Lit posters (I'm assuming that you're not referring to them when you say VIP). Offhand I can think of three or four TFN staff writers, myself, Loyal_Imperial, and both of the recent EUC chancellors who have also been regular Litizens. I'm sure I'm missing a few (for which I apologise, I have a terrible memory), but the point is, that's a pretty small pool and a pretty hefty allegation. And certainly one that needs addressing somehow if you feel there's substantial issues in the way Lit VIPs and Mods are behaving. But addressing that issue in any constructive way will require more than vague accusations and a more specific line of discussion. I know that speaking for myself I always try to be aware of the tone of my posts and their contribution to the discussion (even if I sometimes sink into silliness...) and the impression I've had of other mods and VIPs has always been that they are aware of the same issues. I'm not trying to get defensive here, just trying to establish that I'm genuinely questioning whether this is an idea that needs to be implemented or an idea that already is implemented. And if it isn't, could you clarify? TKL posted: 2) Mods take some time to help redirect users who consistently derail topics. For instance, the perpetual snarker, you know the one who never really offers anything to the discussion, take him/her aside and say, 'you know, if that's all you have to add to this thrad maybe find a thread where you can participate.' Or for the rabid fan, you know the one that can't seem to stop obsessing on Jedi Master Bedathan Ebery-Wan, when he makes three posts in a row about his fancrush, steer the conversation back. I completely agree. Our mods have already indicated that they are trying to mod in a more positively interventionist fashion. TKL posted: 3) Find a way to allow lovers of a topic to enjoy the topic and bashers to enjoy wallowing in their misery. And then protect those havens. There is a space for that in EUC. TKL posted: Ultimately change starts from within, each poster remembering there is a face behind the counterpoint you're about to 'diss, whether it's another fan or the author of a book. Personally I find it disheartening that we don't have the interaction with authors and SW VIPs like there used to be. And there's a reason for that, it's called a lack of basic respect. Yet, many here just don't see that there's a problem... I'm not entirely sure I buy this VIP issue. We have actually have fewer authors actively publishing now. Matthew Stover still shows up to his thread in Authors. The major comic authors show up very regularly as do a number of popular Hyperspace writers. The only active writers in the EU in the few years have been Luceno and Reaves (I'm not sure they were ever registered?), Aaron Allston who is registered by basically posted a handful of times a very long time ago, Traviss and Denning. Traviss is a case unto herself (and one I'm very glad is being openly discussed here), and Denning doesn't post much but was logging into his account daily around the time of Invincible's release, and recognised TFN handles in discussions over on TOS. The NJO was 19 books over 5 years with a lot of authors. Now we have essentially shrunk to three regulars plus the occasional appearance by Stover or Luceno. And of those regulars, one left for atypical reasons, one still lurks and one never posted to begin with. Also, while I definitely want EU authors to feel welcome, I don't use the forum as a place to make contact with them, I come to the forum to make contact with other fans, so my perspective on this may be unfairly skewed. It's not like I was here during the heyday of VIP posting, so I don't miss it. TKL posted: If your position has merit, whether I’ve posted two or two thousand times, your position will hold up against mine without qualifying the value of my opinion or that of others. And yet you have arguably done this in this very thread, for instance dismissing the opinion that Lit's atmosphere (which you concede is the thing you dislike about it) is a matter of a different attitude toward critical discussion, but rather indicative of "a basic lack of respect," which is in itself a value judgement and impossible to quantify. Or the eminently debatable assertion that the character discussion in Resource is "deeper" than the discussion in Lit. I'm sure that your intention was not to seem hostile or judgemental which is why I didn't raise the issue in your original post; I assume that you are simply trying to put forward your experience of the boards and that's great. But the point is perception is a tricky thing and I'm equally sure that Havac's characterisation of you as an external perspective on Lit largely came from your own identification of yourself as such a person with your comments that you had chosen not to participate more fully in Lit because you preferred the culture of the Fan Fiction boards. To reiterate, there is nothing wrong with this, but you can't identify yourself as one of the posters who chooses not to be primarily a Litizen because of the atmosphere and then complain when your perspective is viewed as the perspective of someone who is...not primarily a Litizen. No one is suggesting your opinion is invalid. But the same way you feel you are able to tell me about the nuances of the Resource board because I am not there frequently and you are, the fact that you are not a frequent participant in Lit does mean that people who are there probably know more about the details of the discussion that occur. This means that your perspective is important in a different way. But if we viewed your opinion as indicative of the feelings of someone who's in Lit every day, it would be as counterproductive as viewing my opinion as the opinion of someone who rarely ventures onto the forum. This isn't about invalidating anything. It's about making sure we use understand the context of the feedback that's being given. ...says she who's not actually in a position to make such sweeping statement; mods if I overstepped my bounds on interpreting here I apologise. In the interests of providing more positive examples, as a resource to the ongoing thread, I'd like to point out that Lit is, as a forum, capable of radically changing its mind in the face of new material. The initial outcry against Legacy followed by the enormously positive response and the active participation of both creators on the forum is an example of that. But also, I remember very negative reactions to early spoilers for Inferno. And while LOTF as a series still takes a lot of flak, my memories of the breaking spoilers is that initial negativity gave way to Inferno being one of the best received books out of the series. I see how that could be interpreted as, "See? People shouldn't assume before they've read it!" and yes, that's a valid interpretation. However, my interpretation is that it's evidence of Lit's ability - broadly speaking - to change its mind and respond maturely to new information, and evidence that early speculation based on spoilers doesn't harm overall response to the material. I'm not as familiar with the TFU thread, but my perception is that a similar situation occured there; initial dislike of the title gave way to an amount of appreciation. -----signature----- legatus imperatoris britanniæ superior REMEMBER: X-WING: WEDGE'S GAMBLE DISCUSSION STARTS IN DECEMBER! Han's a girl, so I got a Golden Ewok.
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 12/11/08 7:08am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	KissMeImARebel posted: Didn't there used to be an NJO/LotF Critics Thread? I don't know if I ever posted on it but I know there at least used to be a pretty active one. Is that still open, or can it be re-opened and encouraged? It was locked - probably because no one was posting there! If anything the NJOCC was very much a creation of its time when the Lit board was very pro-NJO and was not being friendly to dissenting views, so NJOCC got created over in EUC and worked well, over the years it also functioned as a social hub - hence its EUC location - and expanded to cover DN and LOTF. BUT due to the way NJO developed and the further twists added by DN and LOTF, the hostility to those who didn't care for these stories in the main - generally the negative points outweigh the positive - pretty much evaporated. In effect DR smashed its pro-fanbase to pieces! -----signature----- Excellence: "You are the forum's Quick Ben." SW EU fans: John Ostrander needs your help! http://www.comix4sight.com
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 12/11/08 7:11am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Darth_Lex posted: Well, obviously we'll have to agree to disagree on the Mindor thread, then. I hope at least you can make an effort to understand why a thread like that is offputting to many "outsiders" to Lit, even if, at the end of the day, the decision is made that this is how Lit should operate. Should the thread continue to be dominated by continuity aspects when the book has been released, I'd say it'd be accepted that you have a point on this. I don't think it'll be the case though - as once the book's out the amount of stuff to talk about instead of continuity will probably be very great. -----signature----- Excellence: "You are the forum's Quick Ben." SW EU fans: John Ostrander needs your help! http://www.comix4sight.com
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TKeira_Lea Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 12/11/08 7:51am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Master_Keralys posted: TKeira_Less, I challenge you to find one time here where a person on Lit staff has said, "This is fine; we don't think there's any problem here," in this thread. I’ll assume you misspelling of my name was just that To answer your challenge I quote Havac followed by your subsequent support of this statement. Havac posted: Shouldn't you as well consider the possibility that three Lit mods saying they don't see the problem maybe means there isn't one? Master_Keralys posted: We may differ about the extent to which there's a problem, and we may ask to you demonstrate that the problem is to the extent that you allege it, but we're not saying that there's no problem, just that the problem might not be as intense as you say it is, and we'd like to be convinced rather than just taking you at your word. It's not that we don't trust you; it's that we don't see it, and as such, we're going to need reasonable evidence that it's true before we change our minds. Havac’s quote above does not insinuate in the least that we’re talking shades of intensity. Actually that’s the point I want to address. You seem to feel that I’m saying something along the line of ‘Lit sucks, fix it.’ You’re defensive that I even have an opinion. I guess I assumed that since you opened this thread you were open to opinions. What I’ve been saying is, “I think there is a way for you to bring in more contributors and help the forum grow.” becca posted: But that basically boils down to, "you guys are being too negative," just in terms of methods of expression and tone rather than objective opinions. And again, that's a subjective judgement that's impossible to distill into an absolute rule. So the only solution is more active moderation which I've already stated I would support. Exactly. becca posted: We have four mods and a small handful of non-EU-writer VIPs who are regular Lit posters (I'm assuming that you're not referring to them when you say VIP). Offhand I can think of three or four TFN staff writers, myself, Loyal_Imperial, and both of the recent EUC chancellors who have also been regular Litizens. I'm sure I'm missing a few (for which I apologise, I have a terrible memory), but the point is, that's a pretty small pool and a pretty hefty allegation. And certainly one that needs addressing somehow if you feel there's substantial issues in the way Lit VIPs and Mods are behaving. Well I noted to Havac directly that I’ve seen him addresses people and not the points. I don’t think this is an egregious offensive that warrants review. People ask for hard concrete proof of why I have this impression of Lit or why I stated that the change might be led from the top down. I came into a Lit discussion last week and in the course of two days had to twice ask Havac, a mod, why he had to disparage people’s participation. People see a mod interact with other users like that and it becomes okay. No, it’s not wrong in the sense that he’s breaking any rules, but that’s the tone he conveys while wearing Lit’s colors. As for the rest of your post, point taken and well said. -----signature----- http://www.lominalecantina.com Dark Journey, the EU's version of a head fake current fanfic ~ Return to Bolis Island http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/29571370/p1/?19
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rhonderoo Title: Former Head Admin Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 12/11/08 8:06am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	I'm going to be frank. When you guys start getting defensive, it'll change the tone of the whole conversation and we'll start going in circles. We've been giving some solutions, that you say you're considering, so maybe we could have a nice post where there's a summary, minus a lot of quote replies, and there's some tangible things to consider going forward. I saw you guys agree that dedicated author threads was being considered, as well as looking at the Review threads differently. What about the moderation of IU vs OOU? NOT getting rid of OOU, but the moderation or organization thereof. I also think we've heard more moderation loud and clear, anything else? -----signature----- DT421 FYI: You don't deal with me. I deal with you. Damned right the Jedi's fire has gone out of the universe. I was the bad-ass Class C extinguisher who snuffed them. - @darthvader (Darth Vader on Twitter)
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Robimus Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 12/11/08 8:35am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Keralys & Havac: I think Bec sums up best what I'm reffering to, what I think of as this "fanboy snobbery". It's the difference in interpretations of canon, being told that the sources you've looked up don't count at all even though they clearly create a contradicting view of the facts and how they add up. At this point I'm not going to dredge up anymore old threads for quotes, but the last example I did show is an example of intellectual snobbery over fan boy snobbery, but it is similar to comments I've had aimed my way in canon debates on a few subjects. Also, I'll mention this once more and drop the issue. I really feel like claims by anyone the like of "You don't get what Star Wars is about" is a subtle or not so subtle snobbery. You both don't agree so I'll accept that and move on, but that is my perception. Havac Posted: And part of the problem here is that I see a lot of your and Lex's complaints coming from a highly skewed outside view of Lit. And outside views are certainly valuable, but we can't accept all their criticism as being inherently right because it's from outside any more than we can reject it all as being inherently wrong because it's from outside. I too am not sure where your going with this Havac. I would hope that the views from someone like Dingo or Lex or whoever would be considered in the same manner as concerns from yourself, Keralys or whoever. I really don't think it should matter where the critism is coming from. I've chatted up numerous folks in Fanfic in an effort to try and get them into discussions in Lit, and I've heard a lot of similar responses. Lit is a place where a lot of these folks don't feel comfortable......at times I don't feel comfortable there either ..........and maybe there is nothing we can do about that, but claiming that their opinions are a "highly skewed outside view" doesn't seem to be of any help here. Trip makes a couple good points. Lit is kinda like the crossroads of the EU forums in many ways, and its a place that to its benefit(I think ) invites opposing viewpoints, a deeper examination of published works, so on. Also this issue does pop up every few months as he mentions, people get stuff off their chests, then it goes away again. I know venting makes me feel better , so I always contribute. But the question Trip asks is a valid one: Will this make any difference? Can it make any difference? I'm willing to accept that Lit might just be, well, Lit , forever. That said I greatly appreciate the voice we've been given here and think that a little open discussion about how to make things better is a good thing. -----signature----- I am forever seeking the damutek of Hooley Krekk Oh, woe! Oh, misery! Oh, unhappiness. Hooley Krekk where are you? . http://www.cccomiccon.com http://www.actionfigurenews.ca
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 12/11/08 9:15am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Something to consider: Quality vs quantity of posts. Is it really accurate to say a reduction in people posting means that the forum has a problem? Because I'm not convinced it is. If anything it's more accurate to say that people sometimes don't have anything to say on a topic, then a new thread comes along that engages their interest. Equally people may have other demands on their time that are entirely independent of the internet. There's a tendency to draw the worst conclusion as opposed to the more accurate which'll likely be a good deal less straight-forward. -----signature----- Excellence: "You are the forum's Quick Ben." SW EU fans: John Ostrander needs your help! http://www.comix4sight.com
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Lord_Hydronium Title: Literature Gardener Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 12/11/08 11:56am Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Darth_Lex posted: Master_Keralys posted: I also think that we can see that LSatSoM is not getting any such bad press Actually, there's several full pages' worth of discussion in the Mindor thread about the continuity issues implicated by the identity of the novel's antagonist. (Sorry, I'm not sure how much of that is considered spoilers, so I hope I'm being oblique enough while still being clear what I'm referring to.) And these aren't even actual continuity issues yet - they're anticipated ones. Yet it's already being dissected, before there are even spoilers about how it's actually handled or addressed in the novel. Yes, there's excitement for a Stover book, and excitement to see him handle OT era Big Three (plus Lando!), but when something like half the thread is addressed to continuity dissection rather than story or characters, or general excitement, it sends a message about the priorities of the forum... It seems to me that people are discussing continuity because people care about continuity. And it seems pretty silly to say they're talking about it to the exclusion of "story or characters", when the matter being discussed is the identity and history of one of the main characters. Furthermore, I don't see how this counters Ker's point, because the response, even in continuity discussion, is overwhelmingly positive. The main reaction is "What a cool connection!", and people are even talking about how they want to learn about the character's existing past. How is that a negative thing? Darth_Lex posted: I agree with you wholeheartedly on this. And IMO something like the Mindor thread is a perfect example of what needs to be addressed. It's fine for people to care deeply about continuity. It's another thing entirely for spoiler threads to become bogged down in continuity issues (e.g., Mandalorian backstory in Revelation and Order 66, Daala as Chief of State in Invincible, the Mindor thread, the Wild Space thread, the Rebel Force thread) instead of the actual story. But that's assuming that continuity and story are something inseparable, or that the latter is the only preferred topic of discussion. To me it's like saying "people are too bogged down in characterization instead of the actual story" or "people are too bogged down in whether it's written well instead of the actual story". And it also strikes me as somewhat self-centered to say "No, you can't talk about those things that everyone is talking about; let's only talk about the things I want." You can't make people talk about things they aren't interested in, and unless this "bogging down" is one or two posters posting the same things over again—and that's something moddable, and something that is modded—then the fact that people continue on that topic suggests there's enough interest to sustain it. The only issue I see is that discussion topics tend to fall one at a time, to the exclusion of others, but that's part of their nature and applies equally all around; it means that when people are talking about story or characterization, it's just as bogged down and hard to switch topics as when continuity is the subject. -----signature----- Great midis have little midis Swimming round inside 'em And little midis have lesser midis And so ad infinitum.
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Master_Keralys Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 12/11/08 12:12pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread) - Date Edited: 12/11/08 12:16pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Master_Keralys
	roo - I replied to you last and, in many ways, most importantly. A few things before that. Robimus posted: Also, I'll mention this once more and drop the issue. I really feel like claims by anyone the like of "You don't get what Star Wars is about" is a subtle or not so subtle snobbery. You both don't agree so I'll accept that and move on, but that is my perception. Actually, I agree rather thoroughly, and one of the things we were talking about even before this thread came up is exactly what to do with that sort of thing. We'd already agreed on harder moderation. Alas, we haven't gotten nearly as far as we would like there, simply because we're busy - not least with this! - but that is something we're taking action on. You'll see some updates to the Code of Conduct and use of Grimby's fancy new announcement system to highlight them, as well as stricter moderation on that point, in very short order - hopefully within the week. The stricter moderation is already happening to some extent, but we're trying to figure out where the new lines are, how to stifle that sort of thing while still not jumping all over people's posts. It gets a lot more subjective than most of the other stuff we handle (spamming and cursing are not so hard to figure out, you know?), and so we've got to find the right line. Regarding Havac's comments to Lex and TKeira_Lea - I don't think he's trying to just throw their opinions out. But, as Becca pointed out, it's silly not to take into consideration people's background when evaluating their opinions and arguments. I take Dingo pretty seriously because he modded Lit for a long time, and invited Jedi Ben because he's been around for AGES (yeah, that's right, old guy ). I also invited folks like you, relatively new to Lit, ChildofWinds, that I couldn't have less in common with as far as our appreciation of Star Wars goes unless she thought Zayne Carrick the devil, and so on - the people I invited I invited because of those differences in background. I think Lex and TKeira_Lea bring some possibly valuable opinion to the table, but the latter in particular (and please don't take statement of fact here as criticism) is not nearly as involved in Lit as even you are, much less someone like Lord_Hydronium. That leads to both good and bad differences in viewpoint: outside can sometimes be more objective, but it can also sometimes miss dynamics that exist because of the nature of the community that are not bad but are very different from that which one is used to. I can't speak for Havac's intent or attitude there, but I can speak for mine. TKeira - I misspelled your name because it was early, I was running on 4.5 hours of sleep, and I made a typo. TKeira_Lea posted: Havac’s quote above does not insinuate in the least that we’re talking shades of intensity. Actually that’s the point I want to address. You seem to feel that I’m saying something along the line of ‘Lit sucks, fix it.’ You’re defensive that I even have an opinion. I guess I assumed that since you opened this thread you were open to opinions. What I’ve been saying is, “I think there is a way for you to bring in more contributors and help the forum grow.” I'm actually not defensive at all, here. Disagreement does not imply defensiveness. I read Havac's post as saying that he wanted you to consider the possibility that you're wrong just as you're asking us to - not coming out and saying, "No, you're wrong, I don't want to hear it," but rather asking for a fair hearing and a willingness to dialogue rather than attack. I'd appreciate it if we kept this relatively not-intense and didn't turn it into a growling match; I frankly don't think it'll get us anywhere. Again, I'm open to hearing what you have to say. Do you have concrete suggestions as to how to improve Lit? Actual things we can do? If so, excellent! I will gladly hear them, and we'll talk about them, and if they make sense to me at all, I'll fight for them. (I can't promise to fight for something that doesn't make sense to me, and I can't promise to agree with you, but I can and do promise to listen and think carefully about what you present.) If you don't have concrete suggestions, then I think we may as well wrap this part of the dialogue up, because everyone here knows where you stand on this issue; if it's merely to repeat that stance, it'll get in the way of doing something productive. Again, I want to hear you, but I want to hear you making suggestions on practicable, affirmative action, here. (I would also still love to get feedback and examples as to exactly what the problems are that you're seeing in more concrete terms, but even missing that, I'll be happy with concrete affirmative suggestions.) I hope that helps us get on the same page. Again, I'm not interested in attacking you here, and I would ask that we keep this not defensive and hopefully somewhat productive. Rhonderoo - I think you're right on. Unfortunately, we don't have anything solidified entirely yet, but I can say that under consideration right now are the following: Actively seeking to develop posting habits focused on IU discussion, including a number of oft-batted around ideas (RF's IU trial threads being one of them), and just generally posting and contributing in an IU rather than OOU direction. Creating a separate continuity thread where we can direct all those things so they don't take up everything else. Possibly implementing an actual policy regarding IU discussion, the details of which we're hammering out, but which would very firmly direct but not eliminate OOU discussion so it doesn't take over so many threads. Active moderation on negativity of a non-productive variety - especially "drive-by posting" of dislikes in a thread designed for actual discussion, right up to and including bans as necessary. (And frankly, there's no reason this can't include gushing, too, when it's annoying or over the top.) Also, constant harangues on books people haven't read. And in general, the kind of intellectual snobbery that we do all agree is present, even if we differ on the "fanboy" side of things that Lex brought up. Dealing with derailing. Just generally more aggressive moderation. More aggressive moderation of book release threads in particular, to emphasize discussion of the book in those threads, rather than other things like how much the series rocks/sucks, continuity, etc. Hopefully this will help address some of mrsvos' concerns about those discussions, which I think are rather important. Looking at how exactly we might take Trip's suggestion to simply get stuff on the table and have a names-named discussion, if indeed it will be helpful (we're talking with admins about this, too, with affirmative response on the things we're looking at). Planning a Lit Year in Review thread with voting for best-of-the-year awards for books, comics, authors, etc., and highlighting some of the top events of the year and some of the top threads and developments in Lit throughout the year. This is one of those active improvement areas, and it's one we were talking about before this thread came up. This one's definite; we're finishing up planning it and will launch it in January. ETA: Hydro hits on the mark, I think, though I do think we can keep the continuity discussions from overwhelming the thread. Perhaps having some discussion in such threads, but without it being the primary topic for most of the thread? Certainly I think it overwhelmed all the book discussion proper in the 066 thread, and that, at least, was too much. It's relevant and germane, but it needs to be only a part of it. That is, I think, another judgment call area for us? ETA2 - Jedi Ben - That is all. And on a side note, what about Sin's suggestion? -----signature----- God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself. The craziest story ever told. The truest.
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 12/11/08 12:19pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	Master_Keralys posted: invited Jedi Ben because he's been around for AGES (yeah, that's right, old guy ). There's only one answer to that: When 32 you reach, not so good you will look! Seriously, an interesting set of ideas especially in regard to breaking the OOU from IU elements in a practical way. -----signature----- Excellence: "You are the forum's Quick Ben." SW EU fans: John Ostrander needs your help! http://www.comix4sight.com
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rhonderoo Title: Former Head Admin Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 12/11/08 12:29pm Subject: Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)
	I agree, those things look pretty good to me. -----signature----- DT421 FYI: You don't deal with me. I deal with you. Damned right the Jedi's fire has gone out of the universe. I was the bad-ass Class C extinguisher who snuffed them. - @darthvader (Darth Vader on Twitter)
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