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Author	Topic: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
MasterSkywalker86 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/22 5:38pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	Currently reading Specter of the Past, and enjoying how well the story works. Visions I hope delivers compared to my earlier reading. JB * You referring to the O'Neil-Adams run? Actually I was referring to the modern classics like The Killing Joke, Batman Year One, Hush, The Long Halloween, and Bruce Wayne Murderer. but there hasn't been a particular run that I truly followed. * I wouldn't say 10 issues is exactly massive, O impatient one! That said, given DC's trade policy, it'll be ages before Sinestro Corps is out in TPB form. actually No Fear has issues 1-6 and the secret files issue, plus the five from Rebirth which makes 12 issues. all I can say is Waid had me hooked with one, Brubaker had me in 1, and Bendis and Millar also attracted me within 1-2 issues, with Ultimates, Ultimate Spider-man, and New Avengers. I wouldn't say I'm hard to please, but I simply am a bit picky with characters(genre) and stories, Iron Fist didn't really impress me(though i hear it wasn't for everybody), Iron Man I'm still debating if I want to look into it at least Fraction's work. Thor was suppose to be a starting point for me, but I didn't like the direction it was going. but that's why they have such a big roster of heroes, to cater to your individual likes. * Precisely and as such it makes for an excellent contrast. Fraction has made comments that Stark is aware of how he screwed up over the Civil War, he may have made the right decision but the methods used....Fraction may well get me to like Stark in the comics again, although the Knaufs work has been excellent with Stark being haunted by what taking the job of SHIELD director has cost him. see that's one point fans were concerned if the issue ended with Tony being wrong and evil. but I like to hear that Tony admit he used very wrong methods, but still sees himself making the right decision cause in one sense he was. I think Civil War proved the best solution with Tony being honest with Steve and Tony showing his heart. * Wanted is a wonderfully subversive tale that's very easily taken literally and so misinterpreted. Invincible has a truly killer twist at issues 11-12 that make the book stand out. I've the Absolute-style mega-HC that collects 1-24 and it reads very well, hoping for a second volume later this year. misinterpreted ? if you mean by the movie just representing them as assassins ? but it's sorta like Luke Skywalker/ Spider-man origin where instead of the protagonist being raised with morals and having a pretty good and innocent life, they replace it with a troubled life and to discovered your father was an evil super villain. an interesting concept, but I couldn't see it more than a mini series. what's Invincible about ? remade, iron man faces villain and wins. essentially the story of extremis has been done before it's called Rocky 3 * Not with blasters, rocket launchers and flamethrowers! okay then First Blood: Rambo or how about this Robocop. * I like both personally, still as I said, you'll probably have the cash to spare by the time the GL collections come out. probably but I'll be interested in some other properties by then. * Well if we're talking Johns v Waid, Waid'd probably get it. I like his way of making old concepts fresh. * Despite that, I do like Millar's version. Millar's Cap is a guy who has effectively been a few days revived, perhaps a week or two and WW2 is literally that far away. Brubaker's Cap is smarter, wiser and more experienced in how he handles power. Millar doesn't shirk from making Cap an arse either in a few sequences in The Ultimates. right the man who out of place out of time, with a country he hasn't fully adapted well to. but Brubaker's Cap has been pass that and ultimately is wiser, smarter, and more experienced like u mentioned. he's also definitely the 616 Cap too, while Ultimate Cap is a bit more violent prone. * The opener is effective, does all it needs to. There's some criticism of it not being newcomer friendly but the same could be said of Morrison's Planet X New X-Men arc. I enjoy the new X-men arc, would have stuck to it to, but was disappointed it was just about Scott, Jean, Emma, Logan, Hank, and Charles. * Without giving anything away, I think you'll like the next two volumes. if it's anything like the first hc, i'll be pleased. * Realistic? Iron Man was so far from that. What Iron Man did was to cloak the fantastic with an exterior of realism but that's as far as it goes. Not that I wouldn't like Stark's holographic computer or the car or the rest of the tech. I'd say your list covers too much for 1 sequel. I'd say Mandarin features in the second due to the terrorist group in the first one being called The Ten Rings, it's too good a set-up not to use. ok somewhat plausible compared to Spider-man or X-men. the most realistic Marvel movie is probably Punisher(shame it sucked), but there was a realism to Tony, this is guy who's living on a pacemaker, has no powers, and is human, he's very weak in a sense. I really felt for the character when he's being shot by missiles and being squeezed by Iron Monger. Mandarin is a tough sell unless they bring some sort of realism like x-men, but War Machine is hinted as well. I think they could work all those pieces well into the movie, remember what made the movie so good was it was about Tony Stark and little about Iron Man. worked for the Spider-man films and Batman Begins too, they have balance the hero between the alter ego. * You're forgetting the $ motive. they have to notice why they're making so much money was because the quality of the movie, 222.2 million worldwide, it's opening is seconded to Spider-man, so they have to take notes. look at last year's releases Ghost Rider, which did terrible, FF4 which did well financially, and even though i liked it, it still didn't get good reviews. Spider-man 3 was the real moneymaker and despite everybody not liking it, it still made serious bones. let's look at all the good, bad, and in between marvel movies. Good: Blade X-men X-men 2 Spider-man Spider-man 2 Spider-man 3 Iron Man In between: X-men Last Stand, Rise of the Silver Silver. Blade 2. Bad: Blade 3 Punisher FF4 Daredevil Hulk Elektra they been doing say a better job then say DC movie wise, but they also been releasing some lackluster movies. * Actually, it's from an Eddie Izzard sketch that's brilliant. , though. i seen the lego parody version, hilarious stuff. "that's Jeff Vader, that is." Has anyone considered that to deal with galactic problems like an interstellar war you have to be quite cold about it? Earlier in this series people were damning Luke for caring about Ben's welfare over killing Jacen, now he's sorting the galaxy out he's damned for not being emotive enough about it? If the realism agenda is to go to its logical conclusion, then being a commander in war does require a measure of detachment. This was Ackbar's point in DW, it's terrible about the refugees but if we don't defeat the Vong they're dead anyway and it was only when the NR actually starting fighting a war with all the viciousness it entails that they turned the tide against the Vong. (Yes, you can say that some of this was down to WJW's fix it remit too.) I think the only reason why people cry Sith is because whenever Luke is doing something Denning always makes it questionable. look at Swarm War, people were questioning him why he was kicking certain jedi members out when there was NO order around. Denning had Luke using the concept from TUF and twisting it some Potentium baloney. if Luceno or Zahn handled the ending guaranteed it would have been just LS Luke. but of course Denning had to have the glowing eyes quote, but it could have been the LS working out of him. It's strange but give DR a wide-open canvas and they go right off the rails, in contrast their best work has been done in those areas where they face significant limitations. In 2001 the same company produced both SBS, a book that showcased every aspect of NJO from the wonderful to the appalling and COD, arguably one of the best PT books going. Fans who have despaired of their late era EU work still remain interested by the other products like the upcoming Corusant Nights novels. So, while I don't see an 86 year gap as being insignificant nor a real barrier, I don't mind DR being limited in such a way either given how they seem to work much better under them. I just demand them to work some light hearted stories instead the 31 one books of drek, heck have them follow Legacy. it follows SW roots very well. also they should just release some quality single books, instead of another damn series. C I always felt Brubaker pushed the envelope with Steve Rogers and that he created a Captain America who made sense. I have the entire Brubaker series and simple things like Captain America being in a sexual relationship with a woman, killing AIM agents, and being shown as lethal during WW2 made Steve Rogers a much more realistic and still admiral character. I do enjoy that a realistic Cap, but the things you mentioned before have been only hinted at, for instance Steve having a intimate relationship has happen before but was mentioned vaguely. Brubaker brings it to the forefront without losing the character's morals and beliefs(he's a one woman man). for killing AIM agents I haven't witness anything in issues 1-24 other than the terrorists in the first issue who made the mistake of jumping off a moving train rather than been hit by Cap's shield(lackeys and henchmen need priorities), which doesn't count. it makes sense a soldier will be killing other soldiers in a war, he's a super soldier. but funny thing is the only thing I seen him do and there's a question if there was another a nazi in the panzer, he pulls one out before he uses an enemy's grenade to his advantage to take the tank out. i like that they haven't darkened Cap, cause this could have been easily handled as a Frank Miller Cap. I don't like Bucky though because...well.... A Russian assassin as the new Captain America? he was a American reconnaissance soldier brainwashed to become a Soviet Union assassin, he's Bucky without the good cheer, but with the spirit of his younger days. ChildsofWinds Sheesh! Looks like the SOS EUC has turned into the comics thread! I'll try to infuse a little Luke into it! wink way to put Luke back in the SOS. I don't like those pairings either. I too would prefer a Cade/Sia pairing, and I think LR would as well. C19 posted spoilers from the very latest issue of Legacy in SOS Lit, and I responded to the Luke-relevant ones. I must say that I'm not at all happy with the way things are going. c'mon now Sia and Cade have nothing in common other than they're human. we know that Blue is very loyal to Cade, but we don't know(at least I don't know) how far their relationship is. besides it's very Luke like of him to have a relationship with a zeltron. I will admit that this is rather small of me, but I am biased about Luke having only alien and no longer human descendants. It WILL bother me if all Skywalkers from here on out will no longer be human. sad cough imperial bigot..... I haven't read it yet, but from the spoilers I've read, I think I'm going to HATE it!!!! Why would they kill off another Solo kid??? And Apparently Luke is dark and weird and ruthless and Emperor-like in this book. sad Also there are all kinds of rumors about Luke going Sith in the future and about Luke being "white eyes". Denning is adding fuel to the fire by saying that he consciously connected the "mine, mine" of Tatooine ghost with Inferno. I always hated that dark reference to Luke in TG. Now I hate it even more. I have always thought that Denning wrote Luke with a dark brush, so I was concerned about Invincible. It seems that my fears were well-founded. sad can u explain please this depiction in TG ? and how does Inferno work with that, I really hate it that they have another questionable depiction of Luke again. Sue Rostoni said something on the TOS boards about being aware that people are tired of the dark and depressing storylines and that they wanted something "lighter". But she said that the creative team wasn't ready to give that "lighter fare" yet. So it sounds like we're going to get yet another dark, depressing series. I TRULY hope they're not going to turn Luke Skywalker into a Sith Lord now. sad And that whole Daala as CoS is absolutely ridiculous! well then I'm not ready to buy another EU book. and please no more good guys turned into sith, we just witness another crappy series killed off 2 major characters, flipped the galaxy upside down, and had the umpteenth war. why don't they do something new like not kill off everybody. the weirdest thing I heard was Tahiri seducing a 14 year old Ben.....what a stupid idea that was, and very risque on Denning's part. No, you can talk about it with spoilers here. LUke may do some impressive feats, but he seems to be cold, unemotional, strange and DARK in Invincible. sad I read some further spoilers and just lost interest into the prospect of thinking about buying it. I really liked Ben in Betrayal, but I didn't like the very concept of LotF, with the Skywalkers and Solos on opposite sides of the conflict, and with Jacen being made into a Sith Lord. Why would anyone think this is a great idea for a story? And you're right: Legacy of the Force probably could have been a trilogy. LOTF, The new NJO of Suck!! It sounds like he does impressive feats. The question is: Dark side or light side? sad well ultimately we know he's the LS, thank god for Legacy. it seems to be the only thing doing right to the SW series. please will DR release some quality, light hearted, non risque(no pedophiles and bastards in the GFFA please), and not release more similar reoccurring plots. RK_Striker_JK_5 And... what's the problem with that, Windy? If they love each other... why not? That's a good question, Striker. I don't know. I guess I really just need to say that I'm prejudiced about Luke's only descendants being aliens. Not rational and rather nasty, I know, but it's my honest, gut reaction. a zeltron in pretty much a pink eccentric human. it's not like they're really not compatible. at the worst they can't have children, at the best they already have a steady relationship foundation. Yeah. There's no stigma with us, at least. We're not lazy slackers. We have to live 'at home' to survive. right on. I don't know too much about Batman comic stories beyond 'The Killing Joke' and a few others. Shrug* But I know they rewrote Mister Freeze to coincide with his DCAU origins.* see DCAU was the DC to me. Spidey 3? If so, too crowded for me. Venom, Sandman and Norman? Cut out the Sandman, at least. And that walk thing Peter did... yeesh! rolling_eyes u mean Harry instead of Norman ?, I felt the movie worked well. only weak links were MJ not telling Peter about Harry plotting to kill him, Venom not as developed as Sandman, and the campy humor. think of those as the ewoks of the series. I enjoy it but I admit they need to bring some fresh blood to the series and a different direction back to Spidey's original roots. Peter needs to have his adult haircut(c'mon it's not like the character didn't change his hairstyle during college), introduce Black Cat, developed Gwen and Venom(he's not dead) some more, Tobey or Parker next need to inject Spidey's personalty (humor, fearlessness, inventive, and resourceful), and bring out better MJ, plus better humor too. quick lets all head to hoth, the wampas are more hospitable. At this point, not too bad of a suggestion. How many times has Kashyyyk burned, now? how many battles have there been since ESB in Hoth ? none. we might as well live there, at least there is some peace. I will. And TFA is just good to me, you know? Saying something isn't as good as Beast Wars isn't saying it's bad, IMHO. true, I will feel BW as my central series, there are a lot of nostalgia between the show and me. really i thought he was a new character. Nope. But don't worry. He's hard to miss, usually being a corpse and all. well at least when he was dead he wasn't a jerk. And he was the coolest one in it, too. Ah, well. Animated Jazz makes up for it. third coolest, Bumblebee didn't talk much, but he had the courage of Prime, and Prime is second, cause he's dad not to the extent of TFA, there was a bit more adult wit in the jokes of Beast Wars. "Oh, sure. Don't mind Waspinator. Waspinator lie here and suffer. Drag himself to CR chamber..." wink Although yes, the humor in BW could be a lot more risque than in TFA. "Ah, Cyber puberty!" -Ratrap, Arcee was supposed to be in the movie until they decided to go with Ironhide, IIRC. And the decision was made pretty late in the process. So her, definitely. i did like Iron Hide but I hope they include Arcee and possibly Ultra Magnus. but they can't really bring out Grimlock can they ? who else would u like to see ? In the Marvel comics, at least, the death toll was far higher. Although with Transformers, at least, there is the need to sell toys. and they acknoweledde the high death count in the 1986 movie was something of a mistake, IIRC. made all the children cry because they killed off Optimus, then resurrect him later cause of the damage. LOL, go right ahead. No more SW for me, with the exception of Legacy TPBs. that and the classics, go Legacy. the actual droid I was looking for...er story. while mostly DC heroes are heroic from the get go, their powers are mostly blessings while Marvel's are mostly freak accidents. And the DC heroes don't angst nearly as much, either. Of course, their populace holds 'Superman Day' while the Marvel populace tries to lynch them on occasion... out of the 2 I feel both reactions would happen in real life, some loving heroes others wondering if they pose a threat. and what about Cap day ? Sue Rostoni said something on the TOS boards about being aware that people are tired of the dark and depressing storylines and that they wanted something "lighter". But she said that the creative team wasn't ready to give that "lighter fare" yet. Then get a new creative team, then. Thsi direction sucks like a black hole. 31 books of bleakness isn't enough? Horse hockey! right make Zahn, Luceno, Perry, and Stover the new team. I'm sure they're capable of some lighter fare, plus release single books, so we have some time to enjoy the novel....bring back Quality. bring back Star Wars. -----signature----- " The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."-Darth Vader "Anakin wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."- George Lucas
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 5/22 6:41pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	I hope you enjoyed my indy review, MasterSkywalker86. -----signature----- Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
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MasterSkywalker86 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/22 7:33pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	it actually revved my interest. even though SW was my playground as a teen, Indy wasn't a series I took seriously. but now that I'm actually a bit older I appreciate Indy's pulp action, with mentions of actual artifacts with a semi plausible approach. but please tell me were the giant ants believable ? also was Harrison into the role in the trailer he seem barely into character ? -----signature----- " The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."-Darth Vader "Anakin wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."- George Lucas
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 5/22 7:37pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0 - Date Edited: 5/22 7:38pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	MasterSkywalker86 posted: it actually revved my interest. even though SW was my playground as a teen, Indy wasn't a series I took seriously. but now that I'm actually a bit older I appreciate Indy's pulp action, with mentions of actual artifacts with a semi plausible approach. but please tell me were the giant ants believable ? also was Harrison into the role in the trailer he seem barely into character ? 1. The Giant Ants are treated as just one of those weird Amazon menaces. It's implied the Crystal Skulls have made them huge since they react to it. 2. Indiana Jones was out of action for ten years by that point. By the end of the movie, he's quite a bit better. -----signature----- Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
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MasterSkywalker86 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/22 8:08pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	i liked your review, especially the part of hearing Lucas and Spielberg can do kid friendly movies still. One of the biggest fears of fans was if the movie would hold up to the predecessors standards, so I'm very happy that's done very well.i'm betting Indy holds the #1 spot until Dark Knight or Hulk comes out. on a side note I'm going to view all 3 movies again this time in chronological order Temple, Raiders, and Crusade, before Crystal Skull. one thing that frighten me was Lucas was thinking of mixing aliens in the Indy universe....not good. lately I noticed no one mentioning the new Clone Wars animated movie, that has the Craig McCracken inspired images but it's in 3d. now do you think that the Clone Wars boat has already sailed ? I mean wouldn't people be more interested in what happen to Luke, Leia, and Han ? (I'm talking about general movie goers.) back to comics C were u certain that Steve killed off Aim soldiers or are you referring to new Cap ? and have you glanced at #38 ? -----signature----- " The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."-Darth Vader "Anakin wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."- George Lucas
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 5/22 9:37pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	A bob cut works on Cate Blanchett! -----signature----- Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
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MasterSkywalker86 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/22 9:57pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	funny thing is I can't picture Galadriel as a communist...until now. -----signature----- " The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."-Darth Vader "Anakin wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."- George Lucas
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 5/22 10:19pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0 - Date Edited: 5/22 10:22pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	Okay, here's my spoiler filled review of INVINCIBLE! Set to the tune of Clay Aiken's "Invisible" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wcNl7ivwOo I think this book is hated by a lot of fans because of the delusionment factor. I've made no secret that this is my favorite of the Legacy of the Force books. Nor, am I going to let the loud and local disappointment of other fans ruin my appreciation for the best Star Wars: New Jedi Order book since Betrayal and The Unifying Force. Honestly, the chief disappointment seems to be that fans expected a restoration to the status quo at the end of the story. They expected Jacen Solo to get off scott free for murdering his Aunt and enslaving half the galaxy with some kind of minor penance. Fans seemed to have been confused by Kyp Durron's redemption that George Lucas' Star Wars has redemption be a painful process that often results in the death of the person seeking it. In other words, Jacen Solo's fans hate that Darth Caedus got justice. I'm honestly surprised by RK_Stryker's reactions since he's made such a loud and vocal protest that Jacen was JINO. Well, JINO is dead and he joined the ranks of those Sith Lords before him. I tend to believe that Jacen Solo was redeemed in his final acts and the book backs it up with Jaina feeling her twin bond again but I also believe that it was necessary to kill him. You could say that you can't have it both ways but my opinion is Jacen was insane and that it was a mercy killing. He found his only redemption in death. Really; a strong undercurrent of this book is attempting to treat Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, and Princess Leia as tough heroes. I think part of the issue that so many people are having with the book is that they're attempting to apply the old imperious morality of previous books towards the Big Three. Ironically, I think a lot of the people who condemn the behavior in this book are those same people who said the Big Three had stupid morality and Jacen was right. They cannot cope with the mental leap that the heroes are practical and decisive people who take the necessary "shot" to put down the bad guy. It's a grim book in some ways because Luke, Leia, and Han are unsentimental about the fact they kill people. Troy portrays them as veterans of a thousand wars and willing to make the simple mental jump that people have been asking for. Darth Cadeus is evil. Darth Caedus is a monster. Darth Caedus needs to die to save the galaxy. They're not hateful or angry about it at all. They just acknowledge that he's a threat to the entire galaxy and choose to deal with it the same way they dealt with Kueller, Thrawn, and Shimmra. Troy chooses not to make Luke and Leia hypocrites like Boba Fett accused them of being. They treat Jacen Solo the same way they would treat any other war criminal. It's not only a surprise to the readers but its a surprise to Jacen Solo as well. Jacen Solo is unprepared for dealing with decisive enemies. That doesn't mean redemption isn't a big theme of the book, it's just that Jaina Solo takes the role of trying desperately to believe that there's good in her brother. It's a set up for tragedy that Troy does and iminently Star Wars as we see him open every chapter with Jacen Solo's jokes. We try and see the lingering traces of humanity in him even as it becomes clearer and clearer how horribly warped and bent Jacen's thinking has become. Luke Skywalker Luke Skywalker comes off as making a MAJOR character change in this book. However, the whole "Palpatine" charge is just nonsense from my favorite Bunny Pooka player (Beccatoria). Instead, Troy Denning transforms Luke Skywalker into a trickster figure like ANH's Obi Wan Kenobi. This is something that may annoy some fans as Luke has never been a man who uses trickery and illusion over straight forward dashing Buck Rogers derring do and swordsmanship. It reflects better on an aging Luke Skywalker that he might become something like Qui Gon Jinn or Obi Wan but it comes out of nowhere to instead have Luke Skywalker display a capacity for deception and trickery to nonviolently defeat his opponents. Luke Skywalker spends most of the book slowly dismantling Jacen's sanity further and breaking down his credibility. He places an illusion of himself over Jaina so that she will have an advantage over Jacen during combat (in this case, attempting to fight Luke as opposed to Jaina). This allows Jaina to be able to cut off Jacen's arm in their first fight. Likewise, Luke is the one who leads the attack on the Rosche Asteroid Belt and proceeds to have the Mandalorians absorb the brunt of the attack. We find out that Luke sensed Boba Fett was trying to use the Jedi as shields for the attack and Luke instead altered the battle plan so the Mandalorians got blasted instead, which Luke basically tells Boba to his face that he turned his treachery around him. Luke Skywalker gets written as Troy Denning envisions a Jedi Master. Effectively, an enigmatic and powerful being that knows what you're going to do before you do it. It's very much off what Luke normally gets written as that its' questionable if its in character and may unsubtle some fans. Luke is certainly moral and absolutely justified in what he does. He's also explictly written as not Dark Side in the book as he states that he knows what line he cannot cross and that's murdering Jacen because he knows that killing him would be vengeance for Mara. Likewise, he has recanted what he's done with Lumiya and gotten over it. Nevertheless, it's rather satisfying to hear Luke admit that he really WOULD like to kill Jacen but he won't because it's wrong. Luke cannot be blamed for being inactive though as he's the glue that forges together the disparate factions for the retaking of Coruscant and also leads the charge that takes the Anakin Solo. Troy Denning has moments where 70 Jedi Knights find under Luke's banner in taking the Anakin Solo and destroying the GAG, once and for all (unfortunately, it's made to seem like the GAG was entirely located on one Star Destroyer and that annoyed me). That brought a smile to my face. I also liked the advice he gives to Jaina not to let her hatred or love cloud her emotion and to focus on her duty. Nevertheless, some fans will be taken off guard that he and his sister/brother in law state unequivocably that Jacen Solo is dead and to give him an inch is to allow him to kill Jaina. Ironically, that's probably true because Jaina is brutalized in both fights that she has with him. Highlight of the book is Luke Skywalker choosing practicality over vengeance when he allows the Moffs to live under Grand Moff Jag in exchange for the safety of the world. Good for Luke. It wasn't an easy decision but it was the Jedi decision. Jaina Solo Jaina basically has her earlier established identity as the Sword of the Jedi brought to the forefront. According to her belief, it is her destiny to destroy Darth Caedus. Just like it was Luke's destiny to refound the Jedi Order and redeem Vader. Just like it was Kyle Katarn's destiny to liberate the Valley of the Jedi. Well, she fulfills the stanzas of the prophecy quite well. A lot of people who read Destiny's Way never imagined we'd have a Jaina who never knew peace and happiness but that's clear that she won't ever again. The fact she killed her brother leaves her traumatized in ways that will never fully heal (unlike Luke's wound from Shimmra that's been dropped as a plot point). Jaina is very Luke-like during the book and does her best to try and find some good in Jacen. A substantial portion of the book is spent trying to believe Jacen Solo was trying to save her life during the Battle of Rosche and that she could reach him. Tenel Ka then points out to Jaina in one of the heart breaking moments that when Jacen Solo saved her life, it was because he had planted a Force "bug" on her and that she was leading him right to the Jedi Temple's Hidden Location. Jaina hopes to the very end there's good in Jacen but he pretty much beats her within an inch of her life before the fight ends and if you thought the Vong were ugly, this was almost as bad. As expected, a substantial portion of the book is devoted to her POV and we see she is a caring commander that does her best to minimize causalties on all sides. Likewise, her confrontation with Caedus is absolutely heart breaking. She is absolutely forced to kill Caedus and all the posters who try and pain her in the wrong are just sour grapes. They want to make Caedus into a victim when Jaina is very much Luke Skywalker's niece. One of the best Jedi and I can't see her leaving the Jedi Order to found the Imperial Knights. Jacen Solo Darth Caedus is at his best in this book. They saved the last Dark Lord of the Banite Sith's best moments for last. He manages to use the Mandalorians to assassinate the Moffs who object to him, slaughters a dozen elite Mandalorian commandoes by himself, and manages to pull a Darth Vader by tracking down the Rebel's Hidden Fortress using his own sister as a tail for her. The ONLY badass Caedus moment in the entire 9 book saga is when Jacen is taking stock of the battlefield and everyone dead. Then someone points out that Jaina cut off his arm. He stares at the stump and goes "Hmmm, so someone did." Then goes back to assessing the battle. It's also one of the reminders that Caedus is not playing with a full deck and its getting worse rather than better. Caedus' fights with Jaina are also extremely well choreographed as he obviously overwhelms her power wise yet Jaina pretty much uses trickery and cunning (plus his overwhelming obsession with Luke and later Allana/Tenel Ka) to fight him to a stand still. In the end, its only Jaina's trust in the force that allows her to slay the Dark Lord of the Sith and we have no doubt that he could have killed her had he not died. Of course, it's another interesting thing that Troy Denning makes Jacen seem more competent in his own mind even as its clear that his Empire is crumbling around him. Only the Empire is still allied with Caedus and its clear that the entire galaxy is being worn down in fighting him (though the minimalism in Star wars is on display as it states "If Rosche asteroid belt falls into Caedus' hands then the war is over.") Even his relationship with Tahiri is quear as he basically uses her as a disposable tool but shows a kind of perverse pride when she accidentally kills Shevu during his interrogation. Jacen is in his own little world but a lot of his earlier craziness is explained away as "emotional guilt over Allana" even if that makes no sense. I knew Darth Caedus had to die as soon as Mara was killed but still too many fans react like Del Ray betrayed them. Instead, the opposite was true. Jacen was set up to be the bad guy and evil was punished. It's like being disappointed when Voldemort is finally defeated in Harry Potter. Ben Skywalker Ben Skywalker is uncomfortably written as a 16-21 year old the entire book, if not older. Frankly; it's a weird thing where girls flirt with him, he orders drinks in a bar, and he manages to defeat Tahiri in a lightsaber fight despite the fact she's in her late twenties. I don't care if Ben Skywalker is Jonny Quest, none of that makes any remote amount of sense. I would like to clarify something that annoyed me about fan response. Tahiri didn't try to seduce Ben, she was just making him uncomfortable by poking him during a medical examination up close in order to make him more compliant. It was all a lead up to her freaking him out with the torture of Shevu. Nevertheless, Ben shows himself as the One True Skywalker Heir by repudiating his GAG membership as the acts of a confused stupid child and also redeeming Tahiri with his noble compassion. So, good for him. Han and Leia Han and Leia get, unfortunately, fairly little screen time in the book. It's mostly Jaina, Ben/Tahiri, and Luke though Leia gets a little time alone with Jaina at one point plus is part of the initial Coruscant mission. For being Troy's favorite characters, they get very little to do and mostly end up just parroting Luke's opinion that Darth Caedus must be destroyed. There is a nice moment though where both Han and Leia take the Obi Wan route. For their piece of mind, Jacen Solo died after killing Omini during the Yuuzhan Vong war and Darth Caedus is someone else entirely. They try and get Jaina to not even refer to Jacen by his Jedi name but instead use his Sith name (which Jacen is using openly during this mission). Sadly, there's no rationale for Han's "Give Daala a chance." Cons I've lowered my opinion somewhat of the book since the first time I reviewed it. The first serious cons of the books are that it's too short and I mean by a factor of at least fifty pages. There's no Space Battles in the book, there's no sense of how the Confederation/Alliance came together to become the GFFA again, and the GAG is dealt with in a throw away manner by the Jedi just basically attacking Anakin Solo and killing everybody. Troy may point out that Daala isn't elected but he never states how she rose to power and why everyone is happy under her. It's ridiculous and silly, even with the fact they've been trying to redeem Daala since Planet of Twilight (WHY!?). But overall, I'm satisfied and feel about as good with this book as I did with the Unifying Force (which was, nevertheless, superior). I'm also pleased to see the Mandalorians get removed from their Gary Stu status by getting their butts kicked repeatedly. In the words of Yoda "At an end your rule is, and not short enough it was." Overall, I consider this a happy ending to the end of the 9-book Caedus saga. Han and Leia will endure with their new child filling the emotional void that Caedus created and life will go on in a galaxy united against tyranny. Likewise, Ben is becoming a true Jedi Knight and Luke is an eccentric but firm leader in the fight against evil. Caedus' death is not a tragedy but Jacen Solo died a long time ago......in Betrayal not Invincible. 8/10 -----signature----- Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! 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Ulicus Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 5/23 6:37am Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	Loved the review Charles. I have yet to read Invincible but it seems more and more likely that I'm going to love it... but also think that it would have been a better ending to a good series. Or at least a series that covered a larger span of time in Universe. LotF was neither of those. Betrayal was good, Invincible sounds good... it's just all that mush inbetween. Regarding Ben, I sort of think that they should just retcon the entire series as having been set in 42 BBY, and have us re-read Ben's "14th" birthday as his "16th". And, it's funny you mention being disappointed when Voldemort dies.... (Though I wanted Harry to go evil, so what does my opinion count for? ) -----signature----- Recipient of Golden Ewok™ Trip Cares
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RK_Striker_JK_5 Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 5/23 8:51am Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	Jedi Ben: The Comfy Chair?! Ok, yeah, bring it on, yeah, cushions too! Say, weren't you supposed to go out and come in again? Walks out, then in again There, happy? MasterSkywalker86: QUICK BRING THE RACK!!!! Nah. I'll throw pillows at him. Weird thing is, I haven't seen that sketch in years. I just demand them to work some light hearted stories instead the 31 one books of drek, heck have them follow Legacy. it follows SW roots very well. also they should just release some quality single books, instead of another damn series Here, here! Bantam did it right. Single books and trilogies, connected but not joined at the hip. c'mon now Sia and Cade have nothing in common other than they're human. we know that Blue is very loyal to Cade, but we don't know(at least I don't know) how far their relationship is. besides it's very Luke like of him to have a relationship with a zeltron. Didn't Luke have a Zeltron love interest in the old Marvel comics... dang, now I gotta look that up. a zeltron in pretty much a pink eccentric human. it's not like they're really not compatible. at the worst they can't have children, at the best they already have a steady relationship foundation. Yeah, I like the idea of Cade/Blue. Both have 80's hair, at least. And a lot better than Cade and Princess Fel. No chance of inbreeding there! Yeah. There's no stigma with us, at least. We're not lazy slackers. We have to live 'at home' to survive. right on. Weird thing is, that's how it used to be before the 20th century, IIRC. Clans and such living together, you know? u mean Harry instead of Norman ?,[i] D'oh! Yup, that's right. Thanks, dude. [i]I felt the movie worked well. only weak links were MJ not telling Peter about Harry plotting to kill him, Venom not as developed as Sandman, and the campy humor. Meh, I would've dropped one of those two to further develop the other one. Or not have Harry become Goblon 2.0 and then die when he and Spidey were kicking butt like they were. Peter needs to have his adult haircut(c'mon it's not like the character didn't change his hairstyle during college), introduce Black Cat, developed Gwen and Venom(he's not dead) some more, Yeah, I'd like to see Black cat and a new haircut for Peter, too. And wasn't Venom... vaporized? Or are you referring to that little bit kept in the jar? Tobey or Parker next need to inject Spidey's personalty (humor, fearlessness, inventive, and resourceful), and bring out better MJ, plus better humor too. Yeah. A lot of the fun was Spidey's quips during the fights. how many battles have there been since ESB in Hoth ? none. we might as well live there, at least there is some peace. Technically one, when some poachers got attacked by wampas in Darksaber. So, justified defense, there. Get some heaters, close the door, do some cleaning and boom! Nice place to live. true, I will feel BW as my central series, there are a lot of nostalgia between the show and me. I have nostalgia with TF as a whole. Been watching/playing with the toys since 1984, after all. The beginning. well at least when he was dead he wasn't a jerk. Or have a huge chin and talk about 'energony goodness!' Man, i hope Optimus puts Sentinel in his place. third coolest, Bumblebee didn't talk much, but he had the courage of Prime, and Prime is second, cause he's dad LOL! good point, there. And he had the god-killer sword too. i did like Iron Hide but I hope they include Arcee and possibly Ultra Magnus. but they can't really bring out Grimlock can they ? who else would u like to see ? I don't see why they can't have Grimlock. Maybe the lambo brothers, Sideswipe and Sunstreaker. made all the children cry because they killed off Optimus, then resurrect him later cause of the damage. I cried. Heck, I saw adults crying in the theater when he died! that and the classics, go Legacy. the actual droid I was looking for...er story. What classics? out of the 2 I feel both reactions would happen in real life, some loving heroes others wondering if they pose a threat. and what about Cap day ? I always wanted to write a fic where Captain America and Spiderman go to the DCAU and are shocked at the treatment the superheroes get. But yeah, Cap deserves his own special day. ight make Zahn, Luceno, Perry, and Stover the new team. I'm sure they're capable of some lighter fare, plus release single books, so we have some time to enjoy the novel....bring back Quality. bring back Star Wars. Add in Kevin James Anderson and Rebecca Moesta and it'd be perfect. CHarlemagne19: Oh, I'd like to recommend Indiana Jones and The Crystal Skull. (Potential Spoilers---I'll avoid the major plot points) Good review dude, thanks. I'm gonna be seeing it on the first of June with my RL friends. I hope you enjoyed my indy review, MasterSkywalker86. Well, I liked it. In other words, Jacen Solo's fans hate that Darth Caedus got justice. I'm honestly surprised by RK_Stryker's reactions since he's made such a loud and vocal protest that Jacen was JINO. Well, JINO is dead and he joined the ranks of those Sith Lords before him. I tend to believe that Jacen Solo was redeemed in his final acts and the book backs it up with Jaina feeling her twin bond again but I also believe that it was necessary to kill him. You could say that you can't have it both ways but my opinion is Jacen was insane and that it was a mercy killing. Ah, no. I don't like the fact that JINO became Sith in the first place. To put the clan through that much pain and torment, to have their only son dead at the hands of their daughter and HIS TWIN SISTER! JINO's not YJK-real Jacen, but IU, there's still a bond between him and Jaina at least up to the DNT, and possibly in the opening half of LOTF. To have him go Sith, kill Nelani, burn Kashyyyk, Fondor, kill Mara, corrupt Ben... none of it should've happened or have been written in the first place. At the end, yes. Kill him, but damn it, it never should've come to that. He found his only redemption in death. His redemption shoulve' been when he told Lumiya to stuff it and he, Nelani and Ben triple-team the Sith Witch in Betrayal, but noooo. We need JINO to be an idiot! Han and Leia will endure with their new child filling the emotional void that Caedus created and life will go on in a galaxy united against tyranny. Their last son is dead! Allana/Amelia's not gonna fill that. And having her taken from her mother to be put with Han and Leia... why, again? Come on. Tenel Ka at least was a good mother, all indications being! Have her leave the Consortium, for Primus' sake! Caedus' death is not a tragedy but Jacen Solo died a long time ago......in Betrayal not Invincible. Nah. He died in VP. JINO was born then. And what a tragedy that was. -----signature----- E-married to the wonderful DarthIshtar. Now also her Padawan. Member of the Y.J.K. Revolution Staring into the Darkness http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/27537567/p1/?23
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 5/23 10:12am Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	Ah, no. I don't like the fact that JINO became Sith in the first place. To put the clan through that much pain and torment, to have their only son dead at the hands of their daughter and HIS TWIN SISTER! JINO's not YJK-real Jacen, but IU, there's still a bond between him and Jaina at least up to the DNT, and possibly in the opening half of LOTF. I like the Greek Tragedy elements of it, actually. Jaina Solo was symbolically the only one who could kill Jacen, with the possible exception of Leia. The two Solo women have often been overlooked and they needed to prove they could stand toe to toe with a monster like Lord Caedus. The fact that Jaina had the strength to kill an evil thing like Caedus despite trying desperately not to for the entire book also showed her to be a true Jedi. To have him go Sith, kill Nelani, burn Kashyyyk, Fondor, kill Mara, corrupt Ben... none of it should've happened or have been written in the first place. At the end, yes. Kill him, but damn it, it never should've come to that. The premise was brought to a natural conclusion. Complaining about the premise is perfectly valid but it's not like the book didn't handle the material in a very good way. Darth Caedus was an interesting villain and its nice to see his end. His redemption shoulve' been when he told Lumiya to stuff it and he, Nelani and Ben triple-team the Sith Witch in Betrayal, but noooo. We need JINO to be an idiot! rolling_eyes Yes, well Doctor Doom should have let Reed Richards check his math too and Magneto/Charles Xavier should realize that they could learn something from one another. Their last son is dead! Allana/Amelia's not gonna fill that. Leia has survived much worse than the loss of her adult and psychopath of a son. She lost the entirety of her WORLD and managed to go on to live an entirely normal life. So, I think they'll just close the book on the Jacen portion of their lives and move on. I also liked that Troy had Leia and Han contemplate new kids. Plenty of people, especially in wartime, live on with their lives even after the loss of a child. And having her taken from her mother to be put with Han and Leia... why, again? Come on. Tenel Ka at least was a good mother, all indications being! Have her leave the Consortium, for Primus' sake! Nah, this way is better. This way Allana can grow up to be a space pilot or more than a Queen! -----signature----- Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 5/23 11:06am Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	Some things that struck me as slightly off in the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull though. * It's PG-13?!? * Indiana Jones worked for the OSS during WW2. I'm not sure I like that. Indiana Jones is a rugged individualist and while he worked for Belgium/French intelligence during World War 1, it wasn't exactly an awesome experience for Doctor Jones. * "Colonel" Jones? * I'm not sure an unabashed Stalinist would be in much of a position to do anything in terms of secret missions during the 1950s given Krushchev's own loathing of his cronies. * Young Indiana Jones is canon? That's surprising. -----signature----- Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 5/23 3:33pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	MS86, Actually I was referring to the modern classics like The Killing Joke, Batman Year One, Hush, The Long Halloween, and Bruce Wayne Murderer. but there hasn't been a particular run that I truly followed. * You were doing OK until Bruce Wayne Murderer. * I wouldn't say 10 issues is exactly massive, O impatient one! That said, given DC's trade policy, it'll be ages before Sinestro Corps is out in TPB form. see that's one point fans were concerned if the issue ended with Tony being wrong and evil. but I like to hear that Tony admit he used very wrong methods, but still sees himself making the right decision cause in one sense he was. I think Civil War proved the best solution with Tony being honest with Steve and Tony showing his heart. * Well he hasn't yet had that insight, instead the 1st issue of Invincible focuses on Stark's nightmares and how they come to pass. misinterpreted ? if you mean by the movie just representing them as assassins ? but it's sorta like Luke Skywalker/ Spider-man origin where instead of the protagonist being raised with morals and having a pretty good and innocent life, they replace it with a troubled life and to discovered your father was an evil super villain. an interesting concept, but I couldn't see it more than a mini series. * It works very well as a 6 issue series, but it has a very subversive tone that is easily missed. what's Invincible about ? * Initially? It's about a kid who has a Superman-type hero for Dad and how he acquires powers. Sounds very ho-hum but there's a twist that sends it into new territory. * On Cap and Europe, if you'd like to see a reply to Millar's infamous quip, read Nextwave Vols 1 & 2, you'll never find such a superhero piss-take again. JB -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 5/23 3:41pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	Wanted's subversive tone is easilly missed? I don't think, literally, you can be more on the nose than the last pages. -----signature----- Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 5/23 3:57pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	Charlemagne19 posted: Wanted's subversive tone is easilly missed? I don't think, literally, you can be more on the nose than the last pages. People do take the final page literally you know. -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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