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Author	Topic: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 5/23 9:55pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0 - Date Edited: 5/23 9:58pm (2 edits total) Edited By: ChildOfWinds
	Jedi Ben On Luke: Has anyone considered that to deal with galactic problems like an interstellar war you have to be quite cold about it? Earlier in this series people were damning Luke for caring about Ben's welfare over killing Jacen, now he's sorting the galaxy out he's damned for not being emotive enough about it? That's a very good point, JB. A leader often does need to make the hard choices and can't let his/her emotions get in the way. People have said that Luke hasn't been a very good leader. Maybe he's finally growing into the role? And you're right that Luke has had to make decisions before which caused death. RK_Striker_JK_5 : Welcome back, Windy. Thanks, Striker! Then get a new creative team, then. Thsi direction sucks like a black hole. 31 books of bleakness isn't enough? Horse hockey! I completely agree. I think they need a WHOLE new creative team. I think Ms. Rostoni and Ms. Shapiro have been at it for long enough. It's time to put some fresh blood with some new, LIGHTER ideas, in charge! Ah... I didn't say nasty. it's your feeling on it, Windy. May not agree with it, but it's your right not to want him with Blue. Thanks. Though I really can't stand the character. Cade doesn't deserve loyal Blue or anyone else at this point. He seems too selfish. Charlemagne19 : Thanks for the Indiana Jone review, C! I'm glad to hear that you think it's good. I hope to see it once my mother can be left on her own again. I'll comment on your Invincible review soon. MasterSkywalker86 : Currently reading Specter of the Past, and enjoying how well the story works. Visions I hope delivers compared to my earlier reading. Great, MS! I'm glad you're enjoying it! I know that you weren't that thrilled with the duology at first. I think after reading things like the NJO, DN, and LotF, one can come to appreciate the quality of Zahn's books better, not to mention his Luke characterizations (for the most part. I do have some quibbles, especially with Mara lecturing Luke.. I think the only reason why people cry Sith is because whenever Luke is doing something Denning always makes it questionable. Denning had Luke using the concept from TUF and twisting it some Potentium baloney. if Luceno or Zahn handled the ending guaranteed it would have been just LS Luke. but of course Denning had to have the glowing eyes quote, but it could have been the LS working out of him. I agree with you, MS. Denning DOES have a way of making things Luke does look questionable rather than RIGHT. I just demand them to work some light hearted stories instead the 31 one books of drek, heck have them follow Legacy. it follows SW roots very well. also they should just release some quality single books, I too want light-hearted stories that can be told in single books. I'm really sick of the series approach, especially since I seem to hate all of their long, drawn-out series stories. However, I guess I disagree about Legacy. I think that it paints a VERY dark galaxy and makes us realize that it's hopeless for Luke, Leia, and Han to have a happily ever after or to leave a good legacy. Legacy is NOT a light-hearted story! c'mon now Sia and Cade have nothing in common other than they're human. Which is a good start! Plus, they're both Force sensitive with famous fathers/ancestors. besides it's very Luke like of him to have a relationship with a zeltron. It is??? can u explain please this depiction in TG ? and how does Inferno work with that, I really hate it that they have another questionable depiction of Luke again. Leia has a vision of a dark character whom she believes to be Luke in TG, even though Luke is only in the book for a couple of pages. In Invincible, Luke has "white eyes" (and there's the white eyes Sith in one of the earlier books. PLUS, Luke says, "Mine, mine" apparently, which is exactly what the dark character in Leia's TG vision said. well then I'm not ready to buy another EU book. and please no more good guys turned into sith, we just witness another crappy series killed off 2 major characters, flipped the galaxy upside down, and had the umpteenth war. why don't they do something new like not kill off everybody. Wow! What a concept, MS! Not killing off major characters or turning them dark! Del Rey doesn't seem to know how to write anything light or positive or hopeful in the post -RotJ timeframe. the weirdest thing I heard was Tahiri seducing a 14 year old Ben....That's just SICK! I read some further spoilers and just lost interest into the prospect of thinking about buying it. Well, C liked it, so I'm going to try it. LOTF, The new NJO of Suck!! Yep. More tomorrow.... Does anyone know whatever happened to Masterstarwalker and I Poodoo ?
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 5/24 12:09am Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	COW, That's a very good point, JB. A leader often does need to make the hard choices and can't let his/her emotions get in the way. People have said that Luke hasn't been a very good leader. Maybe he's finally growing into the role? And you're right that Luke has had to make decisions before which caused death. * There's also different kinds of leadership. Luke hasn't actively sought to be the Grand Master of the order, had he been able to he would have avoided it because he would like to think the Jedi are able to act without him having to guide them - I don't see this as an unreasonable attitude. * He prefers to trust people rather than order them. In this respect he differs greatly from Leia, who has become a strange character as a Jedi in DN - I found her atitude to Luke's reluctant decision to take charge of the order quite strange, perhaps it was simply envy that she wasn't the one in charge? Then there's her looking forward to fighting Alema, not exactly a Jedi outlook. For all people go on about Luke going dark, if I was running the dark side, Leia'd the primary target because she, like her daughter, is so easy to manipulate into anger. -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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Nobody145 Registered: Feb '07	Date Posted: 5/24 1:51am Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	I should advise you, CoW, that if you read Invincible, that there will feel pain, you will suffer, and the last 15 pages will make you want to beat your head against a wall in an attempt to make sense of the ending (if you could call it that). Stephen (or whoever wrote the longest review) on the main Theforce.net site covers most of the main points, and you can glance at it after you read the book. And I still think of the Legacy comics as brighter than LotF was, and it makes more sense than LotF ever did. And on the topic of Cade/Sia, I know its not likely, but meh, its not like logic has much to do with people liking certain couples. And there was that nice chat during the first Broken arc with them sorta comparing notes on their familiy backgrounds. Not to mention it'd be nice if a Skywalker got a Princess once (not that Mara's not a nice wife either). I thought NJO was bad originally, but looking back on it now, TUF was a masterpiece, and an excellent way to end a series. Invincible is well-written, but its not really a good way to end the series, though its arguable whether there were any good ways to end the series, and they threw in some wtf developments too, just for the heck of it. Although the book itself is still a huge improvement over the Mando love-fest of the last book, and Denning is still a good author, its just that... well, at least the train has finally crashed. I saw the new Indiana Jones and didn't much care for it. Its not that it was bad, its just that it wasn't as good as any of the first three. Well, I still rate it above Temple of Doom, but doesn't come close to my favorite, Last Crusade, or the classic Raiders. There are possibly hints in the movie that could be interpreted as leading to a new series with the son (that part of the story has been leaked for a while, so that probably isn't a spoiler), but I think its best to just let the series end on a somewhat high note. Still worth seing, I guess I just liked the older movies more. -----signature----- Don't mind me, I'm nobody important.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 5/24 5:33am Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	To be honest, Child of Winds, I really hate the way this book has been blasted by people on the Star Wars forums. For example, one person said that Luke Skywalker was Emperor-like and had a scene where his eyes glowed said "Mine, Mine!" This is that scene. Invincible posted: "Uncle Luke, there has to be some way to avoid this." "There isn't." Luke pivoted around and glared down on her with eyes that suddenly looked like a pair of suns blazing up from a dark well. "And it's not your responsibility to worry about those lives. It's mine-- mine, Jedi Solo. Is that clear?" See what I mean about hyperbole? -----signature----- Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 5/24 10:59am Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	As an amusing case of fandom gone nuts, the whole thread about the 'mine' vision is entertaining. As a serious concept, which is a million miles away from how Becc started it - for I read her as doing a TME-style nuts thread, it doesn't fly but have people gotten attached to it. At the rate it's going it's going to join The Hat and The Mayor theories. Onto better stuff....Namely, Legacy 24.... What I liked best about the issue was Bantha or rather, Nat Skywalker. People have been saying for ages they want someone to knock some sense into Cade, Nat's your man! And does he go about it with gusto! He makes it abundantly clear to Cade the only way he'll now keep running is to give up all that makes him known to the galaxy, everything. Cade isn't inclined to do that which leaves him on a collision with Krayt, because Krayt isn't forgetting about Cade nor is Fel. The way it's looking is that Cade will continue to do the right thing because he wishes to be free of anyone hunting him, ultimately the only way to do this is to take out his pursuers. On the face of it, it would seem Cade is still the selfish git he was at the start, but that man turned a Jedi over and would not have confronted Krayt. At the same time, the reason the Rebellion was fought was for freedom, which is what Cade is fighting for. The other theme the issue explores is the effect of expectations: Nat left the Jedi in part due to the weight of other's expectations when they heard the name Skywalker. It isn't that unreasonable a position to take. He's crafted a new life as a mechanic, he looks after a number of people, in a way Nat is still a Jedi at heart, he's just doing it on a much smaller scale for people he considers to be worth it. As for Cade, he relapses onto the drugs due to having both Luke and Kol advising him! We get a reason for why Kol didn't pay his son a visit earlier and Luke is warning of a future threat. Oh and then there's the character of Azlyn Rae whose true loyalties are unclear. It would seem she's working for the Imperial Knights whose mission appears to be to capture Cade. The other impact is the news of the Mon Cal slaughter reaching the characters as it's broadcast across the galaxy. Cade's response? Kill Krayt to start a Sith civil war that'll destroy them. As ideas go, it's a good one, how to do it is another question. JB -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 5/24 9:31pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0 - Date Edited: 5/24 9:33pm (1 edits total) Edited By: ChildOfWinds
	Jedi Ben : As an amusing case of fandom gone nuts, the whole thread about the 'mine' vision is entertaining. As a serious concept, which is a million miles away from how Becc started it - for I read her as doing a TME-style nuts thread, it doesn't fly but have people gotten attached to it. I must say that I'm not amused by it. I tried to point out some obvious flaws, even using examples and quotes from Betrayal. Unfortunately, a couple of my posts were "shredded" by a certain mod beginning with a K who basically said that I was narrow-minded and that I didn't believe things even if they were in the text, and added things that I never even said in my posts. Obviously, he likes his pet theory a LOT and doesn't like any opposing theories that might actually blow his out of the water. I had to scratch my head at some of the comments he made about what I said, because I don't know where he got them from. He's done this more than once with me, and since he's the one who keeps talking about showing respect to authors and posters, I was upset enough to point out that he wasn't showing me very much respect. And then I just left the thread. I know when and where I'm not wanted. I have a lot of posts to catch up on tomorrow.
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 5/25 9:50pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	Charlemagne19 : They expected Jacen Solo to get off scott free for murdering his Aunt and enslaving half the galaxy with some kind of minor penance. I didn't expect him to get off "scott free", C, but I did think he would be allowed to live and redeemed. He could have been an interesting character as a Force-stripped Jacen. I do agree that a lot of Jacen's fans hate that he was killed off, especially since his "reign" was pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things. That's why some are coming up with wild theories to try to make Jacen seem more "heroic" and "noble". They say he sacrificed himself by becoming a Sith Lord so Luke wouldn't have to become one. I tend to believe that Jacen Solo was redeemed in his final acts and the book backs it up with Jaina feeling her twin bond again I haven't read this yet so I'm not sure how I feel about that. They're not hateful or angry about it at all. They just acknowledge that he's a threat to the entire galaxy and choose to deal with it I've heard though that Luke has a lot of problems with anger in this book. Luke Skywalker comes off as making a MAJOR character change in this book. Why would he change so much in one book though? I really hope that I like this "change". Instead, Troy Denning transforms Luke Skywalker into a trickster figure like ANH's Obi Wan Kenobi. This is something that may annoy some fans as Luke has never been a man who uses trickery and illusion over straight forward dashing Buck Rogers derring do and swordsmanship. This DOESN'T sound like Luke. He's never been deceptive before. Why start writing him that way now? Luke Skywalker spends most of the book slowly dismantling Jacen's sanity further and breaking down his credibility. That actually sounds pretty cruel. He places an illusion of himself over Jaina so that she will have an advantage over Jacen during combat WHY would it be an ADVANTAGE for Jacen to think that Jaina was Luke???? Wouldn't Jacen go all out and make things worse for Jaina because Jacen knows how powerful Luke is? Likewise, Luke is the one who leads the attack on the Rosche Asteroid Belt and proceeds to have the Mandalorians absorb the brunt of the attack. We find out that Luke sensed Boba Fett was trying to use the Jedi as shields for the attack and Luke instead altered the battle plan so the Mandalorians got blasted instead, which Luke basically tells Boba to his face that he turned his treachery around him. Again, this doesn't sound like Luke. He sounds pretty arrogant, and again...cruel here. Luke Skywalker gets written as Troy Denning envisions a Jedi Master. Effectively, an enigmatic and powerful being that knows what you're going to do before you do it. It's very much off what Luke normally gets written as that its' questionable if its in character and may unsubtle some fans. I thought that Del Rey complained that Luke was "too powerful" during the Bantam days. It sounds like they have well beyond what Bantam ever did. Luke is certainly moral and absolutely justified in what he does. He's also explictly written as not Dark Side in the book as he states that he knows what line he cannot cross and that's murdering Jacen because he knows that killing him would be vengeance for Mara. So why are so many people saying that LUke is extremely dark in Invincible, so much so that some are thinking he may go Sith yet. likewise, he has recanted what he's done with Lumiya and gotten over it. I thought he did that two books ago? I read the first 38 pages though, and it doesn't sound like he's "gotten over it". He and Saba say he's "tainted". So what does that mean anyway? That he's close to being a darksider himself? That he can't ever face another darksider for fear he'll fall? Luke cannot be blamed for being inactive though as he's the glue that forges together the disparate factions for the retaking of Coruscant and also leads the charge that takes the Anakin Solo. Well, that's good, I guess. I also liked the advice he gives to Jaina not to let her hatred or love cloud her emotion and to focus on her duty. I've heard people say that Jaina doesn't listen to her uncle and that she's "right". Highlight of the book is Luke Skywalker choosing practicality over vengeance when he allows the Moffs to live under Grand Moff Jag in exchange for the safety of the world. And Jag should be a Moff why, exactly??? Jaina basically has her earlier established identity as the Sword of the Jedi brought to the forefront. According to her belief, it is her destiny to destroy Darth Caedus. What I don't understand though is, if Jaina was supposed to be the one to confront Jacen, why was she hardly in the first 5 or 6 books at all??? That really doesn't make too much story-telling sense. It almost seems like a major change took place halfway through the series. Was Ben or Luke originally supposed to take out Jacen? Jaina is very Luke-like during the book and does her best to try and find some good in Jacen. So Jaina is "Luke-like", but Luke isn't? Jaina hopes to the very end there's good in Jacen but he pretty much beats her within an inch of her life before the fight ends and if you thought the Vong were ugly, this was almost as bad. It doesn't sound to me as though Jacen deserves redemption. She is absolutely forced to kill Caedus and all the posters who try and pain her in the wrong are just sour grapes. They want to make Caedus into a victim when Jaina is very much Luke Skywalker's niece. I do think I would have liked this story better if Luke had been in Jaina's role. The ONLY badass Caedus moment in the entire 9 book saga is when Jacen is taking stock of the battlefield and everyone dead. Then someone points out that Jaina cut off his arm. He stares at the stump and goes "Hmmm, so someone did." Then goes back to assessing the battle. That sounds really weird! Even his relationship with Tahiri is quear as he basically uses her as a disposable tool but shows a kind of perverse pride when she accidentally kills Shevu during his interrogation. I think it's sad that Shevu died. Ben needed someone as a mentor, and Shevu just died. Ben Skywalker is uncomfortably written as a 16-21 year old the entire book, if not older. Frankly; it's a weird thing where girls flirt with him, he orders drinks in a bar, and he manages to defeat Tahiri in a lightsaber fight despite the fact she's in her late twenties. I will agree that this doesn't make much sense, C. Nevertheless, Ben shows himself as the One True Skywalker Heir by repudiating his GAG membership as the acts of a confused stupid child and also redeeming Tahiri with his noble compassion. That's definitely a positive. Sadly, there's no rationale for Han's "Give Daala a chance." No, I don't think so! And I agree that for a book that's supposed to put everything together and resolve everything, less than 300 pages doesn't seem like it would be enough. Overall, I consider this a happy ending to the end of the 9-book Caedus saga. It doesn't sound like a happy ending, C. Jacen is dead and Daala is CoS, and Luke is "eccentric" and out-of-charactr. Jaina is now Luke. RK_Striker_JK_5 Here, here! Bantam did it right. Single books and trilogies, connected but not joined at the hip. I agree! To have him go Sith, kill Nelani, burn Kashyyyk, Fondor, kill Mara, corrupt Ben... none of it should've happened or have been written in the first place. At the end, yes. Kill him, but damn it, it never should've come to that. Again, I feel the same way. What was the point of this series anyway? Nothing was accomplished, except that they killed off two important characters. And you're also right that Jacen should have teamed with Ben and Nelani and they should have taken Lumiya prisoner or killed her. I think it's sad that Tenel Ka won't even be able to raise her own child. more another time...
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NewStaryknight Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 5/26 3:18pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0 - Date Edited: 5/26 3:22pm (1 edits total) Edited By: NewStaryknight
	Charlemagne19 posted: To be honest, Child of Winds, I really hate the way this book has been blasted by people on the Star Wars forums. For example, one person said that Luke Skywalker was Emperor-like and had a scene where his eyes glowed said "Mine, Mine!" This is that scene. Invincible posted: "Uncle Luke, there has to be some way to avoid this." "There isn't." Luke pivoted around and glared down on her with eyes that suddenly looked like a pair of suns blazing up from a dark well. "And it's not your responsibility to worry about those lives. It's mine-- mine, Jedi Solo. Is that clear?" See what I mean about hyperbole? So what are you saying? You don't agree? Cause I certainly don't. We have to remember a line in Invincible were Jaina contemplates Luke's state of mind. She thinks that Luke in some ways is as ruthless and calculating as Boba Fett, but that he was guided by his own convictions. I took that to mean that Luke was still Luke with just a rougher edge.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 5/26 4:08pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	So what are you saying? You don't agree? Cause I certainly don't. We have to remember a line in Invincible were Jaina contemplates Luke's state of mind. She thinks that Luke in some ways is as ruthless and calculating as Boba Fett, but that he was guided by his own convictions. I took that to mean that Luke was still Luke with just a rougher edge. I think Windy took the "Mine Mine" and eyes glowed literally, which you should never do. -----signature----- Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
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Nobody145 Registered: Feb '07	Date Posted: 5/26 6:39pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0 - Date Edited: 5/26 6:45pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Nobody145
	There's a whole thread in Literature focusing on that and a vision Leia had decades earlier, in another Denning book, about white eyes and those words. By now, its mostly descended into crack theories but its still funny to read them at least. Personally, I'm more mad about them handicapping Luke for the entire book, then about Luke's ruthlessness. And there are always complaints. If Luke doesn't go all-out, people complain that he's letting his nephew run wild, so everything Caedus does is partially Luke's fault, or if he does too much, people get made that Luke's becoming too uppity, too arrogant, etc. I miss the good old days when the bad guy was evil and Luke and was... just Luke, so striking down the bad guy led to a happy ending. Now, there aren't much happy endings left for anybody. Survivors, yes, but happy, not quite. Though I'm kind of glad Ben's an only child, or else we might get stuck with another evil Skywalker in a few years. Honestly, I don't mind Luke too much, and Invincible wasn't that bad of a book, its just the events that are really ridiculous. I was thinking of buying it, until the last 20 pages. After that, I know I'm not wasting money on buying a hardcover copy, and I doubt I'm even going to waste money on buying a paperback copy. The paperback copy is actually coming out very fast, this year, December, I think, possibly to serve as a reminder for people to buy the Millenium Falcon book. Personally, I think they're rushing out the paperback edition before LotF fades completely, since when the other paperback versions of earlier hardcovers came out, there were still future LotF novels to keep interest going. Or they've realized how stupid Invincible was and are rushing out the cheaper paperback out. Hm, no, wait, never mind, if they could recognize how stupid some of the things in Invincible were, they wouldn't have written in the first place, so I doubt they've realized it since. -----signature----- Don't mind me, I'm nobody important.
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RK_Striker_JK_5 Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 5/26 8:06pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0 - Date Edited: 5/26 8:07pm (1 edits total) Edited By: RK_Striker_JK_5
	CHarlemagne19: I like the Greek Tragedy elements of it, actually. I haven't read Greek tragedy in... years. Not since high school, actually. The two Solo women have often been overlooked and they needed to prove they could stand toe to toe with a monster like Lord Caedus. At best, Caedus was a joke. And there are better ways than fratricide and... whatever for Leia. Hell, she proved it already. The premise was brought to a natural conclusion. The premise sucked and was flawed to begin with. . Complaining about the premise is perfectly valid but it's not like the book didn't handle the material in a very good way. Darth Caedus was an interesting villain and its nice to see his end. I'll complain about both until the day I die. Caedus was a stupid, rotten idea. Yes, we needed one more next gen character wasted and killed off! Yes, well Doctor Doom should have let Reed Richards check his math too and Magneto/Charles Xavier should realize that they could learn something from one another. Well, why not? Would've been interesting. And JINO or YJK-real Jacen's egos weren't a hundredth of theirs. And Doom and Megneto, IIRC, were introed as villians. Jacen was a hero for the first 16 years of his life. I am sick to death of fallen heroes. In SW, it's beyond cliched into parody. Leia has survived much worse than the loss of her adult and psychopath of a son. She lost the entirety of her WORLD and managed to go on to live an entirely normal life. So, I think they'll just close the book on the Jacen portion of their lives and move on. I also liked that Troy had Leia and Han contemplate new kids. Leia didn't carry freakin' Alderaan in her womb for nine months and share a Force bond with it. It's her son, for god's sake! No one on Alderaan had much a connection with her as Jacen or even JINO. It is sick and wrong. No mother should have to bury her child, let alone two. The Jacen portion of their lives? There is no 'Jacen portion'! It's all there, it's a deep, festering wound. Plenty of people, especially in wartime, live on with their lives even after the loss of a child. Doen's make it right. Especially the way it happened, either "There isn't." Luke pivoted around and glared down on her with eyes that suddenly looked like a pair of suns blazing up from a dark well. "And it's not your responsibility to worry about those lives. It's mine-- mine, Jedi Solo. Is that clear?" It sounds like he's whining. "My responsibility, and you can't have it!" Luke Skywalker gets written as Troy Denning envisions a Jedi Master. Effectively, an enigmatic and powerful being that knows what you're going to do before you do it. It's very much off what Luke normally gets written as that its' questionable if its in character and may unsubtle some fans. No wonder I don't like it. I don't like any of Denning's SW material. And that sounds very unlike Luke, to boot. Nah, this way is better. This way Allana can grow up to be a space pilot or more than a Queen! I don't care about the nobility. It's separating her from Tenel Ka that pisses me off. Oh, Charles, there's a small crisis at Charon_Force. You gotta read and share your thoughts on what's going on. Indiana Jones worked for the OSS during WW2. I'm not sure I like that. Indiana Jones is a rugged individualist and while he worked for Belgium/French intelligence during World War 1, it wasn't exactly an awesome experience for Doctor Jones. Maybe he got drafted? ChildOfWinds: Welcome back, Windy. Thanks, Striker! You're welcome. I completely agree. I think they need a WHOLE new creative team. I think Ms. Rostoni and Ms. Shapiro have been at it for long enough. It's time to put some fresh blood with some new, LIGHTER ideas, in charge! Problem is, we're not getting anything light for a while. Which... is stupid. stale. Stagnant. Thanks. Though I really can't stand the character. Cade doesn't deserve loyal Blue or anyone else at this point. He seems too selfish. Oh, the problem is with Cade? No spoilers, though. I too want light-hearted stories that can be told in single books. I'm really sick of the series approach, especially since I seem to hate all of their long, drawn-out series stories. It gets tedious. Heck, the YJK may have been 14 books, but it was three story arcs that broke it up. Let's not have a huge series anymore, please? besides it's very Luke like of him to have a relationship with a zeltron. It is??? He was involved with a Zeltron in the Marvel comics, IIRC. He's done this more than once with me, and since he's the one who keeps talking about showing respect to authors and posters, I was upset enough to point out that he wasn't showing me very much respect. And then I just left the thread. I know when and where I'm not wanted. Yeesh, that's not good. Yeah. I posted a bit there too before I washed my hands of it. I don't feel welcome in lit much nowadays... They say he sacrificed himself by becoming a Sith Lord so Luke wouldn't have to become one. If you had any idea how much respect JINO would've regained in my eyes if he said 'Screw you!' to Lumiya and remembered what he had learned at age 14... Again, I feel the same way. What was the point of this series anyway? Nothing was accomplished, except that they killed off two important characters. sad There was no point, none at all. This series stabbed SW in the heart, or at least a lung. And you're also right that Jacen should have teamed with Ben and Nelani and they should have taken Lumiya prisoner or killed her. So much pain would've been avoided. And for the record, no. JINO didn't have to fall for Luke to stay in the Light. I think it's sad that Tenel Ka won't even be able to raise her own child. sad If you had any idea how angry this point makes me... Nobody145: I should advise you, CoW, that if you read Invincible, that there will feel pain, you will suffer, and the last 15 pages will make you want to beat your head against a wall in an attempt to make sense of the ending (if you could call it that). Aww, heck. The spoilers alone do that for me! Seriously, too. I thought NJO was bad originally, but looking back on it now, TUF was a masterpiece, and an excellent way to end a series. The YJK still trumps it, though. And that is a fact. -----signature----- E-married to the wonderful DarthIshtar. Now also her Padawan. Member of the Y.J.K. Revolution Staring into the Darkness http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/27537567/p1/?23
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NewStaryknight Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 5/26 8:19pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0 - Date Edited: 5/26 8:21pm (1 edits total) Edited By: NewStaryknight
	Charlemagne19 posted: So what are you saying? You don't agree? Cause I certainly don't. We have to remember a line in Invincible were Jaina contemplates Luke's state of mind. She thinks that Luke in some ways is as ruthless and calculating as Boba Fett, but that he was guided by his own convictions. I took that to mean that Luke was still Luke with just a rougher edge. I think Windy took the "Mine Mine" and eyes glowed literally, which you should never do. I don't get it? How else are we supposed to take it if not literally?
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 5/26 9:14pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	Jedi Ben : * He prefers to trust people rather than order them. In this respect he differs greatly from Leia, who has become a strange character as a Jedi in DN - I found her atitude to Luke's reluctant decision to take charge of the order quite strange, perhaps it was simply envy that she wasn't the one in charge? Hmmm... Never considered that before! For all people go on about Luke going dark, if I was running the dark side, Leia'd the primary target because she, like her daughter, is so easy to manipulate into anger. I've been saying that for a LONG time. Leia seems to get a "free pass" from the authors when it comes to the dark side. Interesting you should say that abotu Jaina, JB. I thought it was pretty silly to send Jaina instead of Luke to confront Jacen because Luke "could fall to the dark side if he faced Jacen". What about JAINA??? I think there should have been more danger of HER falling to the dark side than Luke. That is, if the characters had been written IN-CHARACTER. But of course, you can't expect THAT in LotF! Nobody145 I should advise you, CoW, that if you read Invincible, that there will feel pain, you will suffer, and the last 15 pages will make you want to beat your head against a wall in an attempt to make sense of the ending (if you could call it that). That bad, huh??? I didn't have high expectations for it, and it sounds like it's a good thing I didn't. I have started to read it and I'm already annoyed. Of course the high and mighty Saba has already declared Luke "tainted" because of killing Lumiya. That happened what??? About 4 months ago in-universe and she's just announcing this now???? Plus, Luke didn't seem so "tainted" in the last book, as he cried over his "decent son" and tried to capture Jacen so he could be redeemed, or quietly sat with Ben in the tree after finding out that Jacen had killed Mara. So what does this mean exactly??? Luke will never be able to do his duty and face another dark sider because he might go dark??? Isn't it possible that ANY Jedi "might" go dark??? And Luke should have more tools to fight against the darkside than most. I just find it so annoying that Luke is STILL being portrayed as Dark. This mess all started with DE! Not to mention it'd be nice if a Skywalker got a Princess once Yes, I'd like a Cade/Sia pairing too...That is, if Cade ever improves. He seems to keep backsliding. Invincible is well-written, but its not really a good way to end the series, though its arguable whether there were any good ways to end the series, The series never should have been written. It started with Solos and Skywalkers on opposite sides of a conflict, and after all they'e been through, the one thing they always had was one another for support. Del Rey even took that away from them. And left the families with two missing members. Luke, Leia, and Han will NEVER be the same again. They'll never be truly happy. Luke lost his soulmate and two nephews/apprentices, and Han and Leia lost two sons. How does anyone ever recover from that? And WHY did the "creative team" think it would be a good idea to do this?? To kill Mara and turn Jacen into a Sith and then kill him as well? Denning is still a good author, Denning may be a good author, but Denning does NOT write Luke well. Jedi Ben : People have been saying for ages they want someone to knock some sense into Cade, Nat's your man! And does he go about it with gusto! JB, Cade must have the hardest head in the galaxy. Luke, Kol, K'Kruhk, Wolf, Shado, and Sia have ALL been trying to knock some sense into him. If he doesn't listen to his father, his Jedi Master, and his famous ancestor, there doesn't seem to be much hope for him. As for Cade, he relapses onto the drugs due to having both Luke and Kol advising him! What a TOTAL jerk!!!! Nobody145 : Personally, I'm more mad about them handicapping Luke for the entire book, I'm annoyed about that too. And just how long is Luke going to not be able to do the right thing because he's afraid he'll go dark??? If Luke doesn't go all-out, people complain that he's letting his nephew run wild, so everything Caedus does is partially Luke's fault, or if he does too much, people get made that Luke's becoming too uppity, too arrogant, etc. I know. Luke can't win no matter what he does. I miss the good old days when the bad guy was evil and Luke and was... just Luke, so striking down the bad guy led to a happy ending. Now, there aren't much happy endings left for anybody. No, there's no joy and no hope left in SW anymore. I too miss those days. Or they've realized how stupid Invincible was and are rushing out the cheaper paperback out. Hm, no, wait, never mind, if they could recognize how stupid some of the things in Invincible were, they wouldn't have written in the first place, so I doubt they've realized it since. Well, you never know. The damage control, with Sue Rostoni, Troy Denning, and Aaron Allston all answering questions seemed unprecendented. Do they have sample readers maybe? Could the reaction from them have been bad and they're trying to "save the ship"? RK_Striker_JK_5 Oh, the problem is with Cade? No spoilers, though. Cade has MANY problems. I don't feel welcome in lit much nowadays... I know the feeling. There was no point, none at all. This series stabbed SW in the heart, or at least a lung. I think the heart is right. They seem to have taken the heart right out of SW along with the fun and sense of adventure. And for the record, no. JINO didn't have to fall for Luke to stay in the Light. I agree.
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 5/27 11:01am Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	COW, I've been saying that for a LONG time. Leia seems to get a "free pass" from the authors when it comes to the dark side. * So does her daughter but eh, what can you expect? They're women. Interesting you should say that abotu Jaina, JB. I thought it was pretty silly to send Jaina instead of Luke to confront Jacen because Luke "could fall to the dark side if he faced Jacen". What about JAINA??? * It's interesting that both are somewhat in danger really. I suggested Luke could have every reason to go nuclear on Jacen, but it wouldn't be right. After all, Jacen killed his wife of 20 years and tortured his son. For Jaina, her brother's pretty much been screwing her over for the best part of a decade by now, more than enough ground for resentment to build. I think there should have been more danger of HER falling to the dark side than Luke. That is, if the characters had been written IN-CHARACTER. But of course, you can't expect THAT in LotF! * I am becoming quite disenchanted with the idea that any character that takes decisive action, or kills someone = skirting the edge of the dark side. Every time Luke acts decisively it comes up, often by the same who complain that he isn't doing enough. JB, Cade must have the hardest head in the galaxy. Luke, Kol, K'Kruhk, Wolf, Shado, and Sia have ALL been trying to knock some sense into him. If he doesn't listen to his father, his Jedi Master, and his famous ancestor, there doesn't seem to be much hope for him. * Yeah, but they were polite about it, Nat isn't. In any case, Cade is pretty much cornered by fate now, he may have only intended to free himself of his responsibility to Hosk by going to the Sith Temple, but in doing so he's partly responsible for unleashing a crazed Krayt on the galaxy and knows it. What a TOTAL jerk!!!! * Jerk? Yeah. Total? No. Cade intends to go after Krayt, but isn't going to back any of the others. He feels Stasi is too ruthless, Fel is similar; doesn't mean the Sith shouldn't be taken out, but Cade's aware their removal won't automatically equal peace and freedom for the galaxy or himself. JB -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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MasterSkywalker86 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/29 8:58pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0 - Date Edited: 5/29 8:59pm (1 edits total) Edited By: MasterSkywalker86
	darn....I just had this post set up earlier and my web browser just had a problem transmitting the data. anyway this will probably be the last time I'll post from my apartment, the closing for my new house finalizes tomorrow and I can't wait any longer. In fact I been waiting for 4 months for this moment to arrive, heck I'm even getting a new job as well.(which I'm very glad to hear). I saw Indy IV, it was good. felt the alien thing didn't fit well in Indy's universe but seeing Marion and Indy back together was great. Shia wasn't half bad in his role either. I love the action sequences another complaint is too much CGI, same goes for the PT. I felt that with too much CGI you can easily lose interest in the character and just say it's all the CGI doing the work, look at I am Legend, the vampire creatures would have been more frightening if they use anamontronics and creature make up for at least close up shots. Child Great, MS! I'm glad you're enjoying it! I know that you weren't that thrilled with the duology at first. I think after reading things like the NJO, DN, and LotF, one can come to appreciate the quality of Zahn's books better, not to mention his Luke characterizations (for the most part. I do have some quibbles, especially with Mara lecturing Luke.. I can easily appreciate Zahn's work better now due to lackluster books we been getting, also I'm more for a story then just a "Luke owns all book."(still I enjoy when both a story and Luke kicking sum butt come together to make a good story). the quibbles with Mara lecturing Luke, could be the Force in an indirect way saying not everything is solved with the use of the Force, or using it as a crutch. as a living being u have to be able to things on your own. or perhaps there should be great care in using great power, so I see some point in it. so far I finish the part where Luke with the help of Mara escapes the pirates' asteroid base. the plot is moving along quite well, the villains aren't 2 dimensional at least with Tierce and Disra, and they both have a knack at what they do, and at collaborating to form such a plan and taking extra measure in being careful. Flim doesn't strike me as evil but deluded himself in playing the role of the lifetime. my question though is why at the start of the book, at least the impression is BOTH Luke and Mara are avoiding each other ? I agree with you, MS. Denning DOES have a way of making things Luke does look questionable rather than RIGHT. and he does it on purpose to the reader, perhaps it comes off very totalitarian at the moment but makes sense once you get the whole picture. when Luke reluctantly took over the Jedi Order everything fell right into place and Betrayal spoke that bit of success. I'm kinda curious at how Denning handles Luke in Invincible but a little dismayed at the spoilers I been reading. I mean does he come off with that stupid TG allusion in the book ? I too want light-hearted stories that can be told in single books. I'm really sick of the series approach, especially since I seem to hate all of their long, drawn-out series stories. they should give the reader a break with the series and do either singles or duology. most of Lit bookwise I been focused on is the single story, they can later do trilogies when there is an actual point or SIGNIFICANT EVENT THAT HAD SOME QUALITY OF INSIGHT FOR A PLOT. However, I guess I disagree about Legacy. I think that it paints a VERY dark galaxy and makes us realize that it's hopeless for Luke, Leia, and Han to have a happily ever after or to leave a good legacy. Legacy is NOT a light-hearted story! it's dark time, but it doesn't come off dark and depressing like Vong or vicious like LOTF, this is Empire Strikes Back territory with some rays of a New Hope and Return of Jedi. In fact those are the titles I would describe the story in a sense. I agree I would love to see some peace before being introduce to the Legacy era, but as Luke would say "every generation has it's struggles why should yours be any different ? " over here at least there seem to be a buildup to a war. but you have to admit that Luke is at his best in Legacy compared to what the current depictions I have seen. I'm hoping I'm wrong with Invincible, I would like to have a new SW book that I enjoy, but so far Legacy is the only thing I been enjoying. While Broken left you with a lot of questions, Shards gave you a lot of insight and answers while moving the plot around. It was great to find out Fel wasn't a scumbag and didn't had a thing to do with the execution of the jedi or sided with the sith. Which is a good start! Plus, they're both Force sensitive with famous fathers/ancestors. remember this is a fictional place where twileks and humans can have relationships, in a sense like elves and humans like Lord of the Rings. plus celebrity weddings never really last besides it's very Luke like of him to have a relationship with a zeltron. It is??? the Marvel issues have him dating(reluctantly) a Zeltron named Dani, also when she's gone he misses her deeply. there is another time when a horde of zeltron girls see Luke and try to catch him, even for Zeltrons they were immensely attracted to Luke. I was surprise at the dialog too, the Zeltrons were very forward if you know what I mean even for a comic Leia has a vision of a dark character whom she believes to be Luke in TG, even though Luke is only in the book for a couple of pages. In Invincible, Luke has "white eyes" (and there's the white eyes Sith in one of the earlier books. PLUS, Luke says, "Mine, mine" apparently, which is exactly what the dark character in Leia's TG vision said. I thought that was a vision of Luke in DE, with Palpatine being the figure who says mine. It might be just be a nod to TG in Invincible. also the one of Jacen seeing white eyes might also be a prelude to Krayt's Sith Order. Wow! What a concept, MS! Not killing off major characters or turning them dark! Del Rey doesn't seem to know how to write anything light or positive or hopeful in the post -RotJ timeframe. bear with me I know the idea sounds fantastical but imagine for a time that heroes didn't turn dark or were killed off, the plot didn't involved retelling previous plots but was a complete original plot. Well, C liked it, so I'm going to try it. let me know if it's any good. Does anyone know whatever happened to Masterstarwalker and I Poodoo ? haven't heard from them for a while, perhaps they are busy with the last days of high school. I would like to know where's Joser, JK88, Leia Skywalker(at least I think that's her name), and Sith Pirate too. JB * You were doing OK until Bruce Wayne Murderer. well Murderer would have better if it was a simple one story arc or was completed in two trades. why you felt it too predictable ? * Well he hasn't yet had that insight, instead the 1st issue of Invincible focuses on Stark's nightmares and how they come to pass. the thing with this story arc it seems too focused on Stane's boy, which is much too early to say he how he is as a villain. Also Iron Man is everywhere now a days since Civil War, chances are if you buy Marvel Tony is going to be somewhere in the story, Ultimates 3, Ultimate Iron Man minis, Invincible IM, New Avengers, Mighty Avengers, Director of SHIELD, Captain America, and the Jon Faveru mini. I would like to see the relevance of this new comic series compared to the others. that's quite a lot for a character who was considered B-List, honestly I always thought he was an A-List character since he has been around for quite some time. hey for Cap who do you think will continue on from issue 51 ? * It works very well as a 6 issue series, but it has a very subversive tone that is easily missed. such as ? * Initially? It's about a kid who has a Superman-type hero for Dad and how he acquires powers. Sounds very ho-hum but there's a twist that sends it into new territory. I hear the kid's father is the villain, is the relationship between the father and son similar to Ultimate Spidey and GG. * On Cap and Europe, if you'd like to see a reply to Millar's infamous quip, read Nextwave Vols 1 & 2, you'll never find such a superhero piss-take again. ? RK Nah. I'll throw pillows at him. Weird thing is, I haven't seen that sketch in years. same here in fact I prefer some Canadian humor from Kids in the Hall to the Monty Python. Here, here! Bantam did it right. Single books and trilogies, connected but not joined at the hip. right, and they had ORIGINAL and DIFFERENT plot ideas. ok sure some of them didn't work as well as others but some of them really stand out. TTT, JAT, COPL, TaB, SoTE, and the Hand of Thrawn Duology were exceptional. Didn't Luke have a Zeltron love interest in the old Marvel comics... dang, now I gotta look that up. yup her name was Dani, and just as hyper as a friend of mine who goes by the same name. Yeah, I like the idea of Cade/Blue. Both have 80's hair, at least. And a lot better than Cade and Princess Fel. No chance of inbreeding there! Blue is fiercely loyal to Cade, which Cade should display back. I hope the relationship progresses in the future issues. I might start actually caring about Cade.....hmmmm me concern over a Skywalker who would have thought. Weird thing is, that's how it used to be before the 20th century, IIRC. Clans and such living together, you know? until they marry their future spouse right ? or they made the clan bigger with future spouses ? Meh, I would've dropped one of those two to further develop the other one. Or not have Harry become Goblon 2.0 and then die when he and Spidey were kicking butt like they were. did you forget that the theme was that of forgiving and redemption ? plus Harry in the comics did died after saving Peter's life. Yeah, I'd like to see Black cat and a new haircut for Peter, too. And wasn't Venom... vaporized? Or are you referring to that little bit kept in the jar? Venom was vaporized or it could be he's in shell shock and recovering from the explosion. My guess is this fused Eddie and Venom permanently and he's trying to recuperate, while Eddie's human body is completely destroyed and is only living on by the Symbiote. might take a few more sequels to bring him fully back. but he could pull strings around and be the central baddie in the next trilogy. Tobey or Parker next need to inject Spidey's personalty (humor, fearlessness, inventive, and resourceful), and bring out better MJ, plus better humor too. Yeah. A lot of the fun was Spidey's quips during the fights. not only were they fun but they serve as a tactic to keep the enemy angry from thinking. look at any fight between Rhino and Spider-man and you'll see what I mean. Technically one, when some poachers got attacked by wampas in Darksaber. So, justified defense, there. Get some heaters, close the door, do some cleaning and boom! Nice place to live. yet that was not a full battle, that was a minor incident that i thought was pretty cool in DS. I thought it was a great rematch to see Luke fight the wampa he originally injured and finally ending it's life. one complaint in SW is I don't get to see that many Wampas anymore. that and the classics, go Legacy. the actual droid I was looking for...er story. What classics? see above Bantam books I posted and enjoyed. I always wanted to write a fic where Captain America and Spiderman go to the DCAU and are shocked at the treatment the superheroes get. But yeah, Cap deserves his own special day. in the movie it was pretty cool that Spidey got his own day, also Cap and the Avengers were probably the team the public respected before Civil War. ight make Zahn, Luceno, Perry, and Stover the new team. I'm sure they're capable of some lighter fare, plus release single books, so we have some time to enjoy the novel....bring back Quality. bring back Star Wars. Add in Kevin James Anderson and Rebecca Moesta and it'd be perfect. Moesta did she do YJK ? -----signature----- " The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."-Darth Vader "Anakin wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."- George Lucas
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