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Author	Topic: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 7/26 12:45pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	COW, Actually, I think 80 years would constrict any publisher. * Nope, not really. Besides Dr only have less time because they've thrown away at least 20 years - on a numerical basis DR has done far fewer stories with a greater timespan than Bantam did. They've wasted one of their primary resources - the other being characters and we kow how that's been depleted. Del Rey already know that they have to make the Empire more and more powerful. * Not necessarily, the Empire improves its position by soft power, in effect it decides to win people over by example, that's a background plot at best. They know that there are massive numbers of Sith around. * Who are terrified to do anything lest they be noticed by Luke, so off the board. They know that any plans they have for a stable and prosperous GA are doomed to failure. * Until the Ossus project was sabotaged the indications are that the GA was indeed successful! They know the Jedi are going to have to splinter fairly soon. * Not so. There are those Force-sensitives from the Empire of the Hand isn't there? You're also assuming any split in the jedi has to be violent, I doubt that will be so. They already had to make Jag an important person in the Empire and we already know he'll become the next emperor and Jaina, the Empress. * We don't know that the Empress will be Jaina, that remains fan speculation, no matter how well argued. Equally open to question is the IKs - who may well have been began by Roan Fel who was first a Jedi. Without Legacy, that wasn't a necessity. Jaina could have become the commander of the Alliance Forces or head of the Jedi after Luke. Now we know that won't happen. And that's just one example of how Legacy has constricted the novels. It will get worse and worse as the timelines get closer together too. * Except that doesn't have to happen, that a load of people look at Legacy and assume the books have to establish anything strikes me as being indicative of a lack of vision. Legacy starts at the earliest probably +120, bags of time. We already know that Dark Horse can't use a lot of characters or even the offspring of those characters because they are "respecting Del Rey". * Is DR worthy of that? If Dark Horse had moved forward a couple of hundred years, neither publishing company would have been restricted in what they wrote and Legacy really could have been an "All New Star Wars". * Given how SW fandom works I can tell you now there'd have been complaints. I would like that to be true, but I remain skeptical. As I've said, I think that like other authors (Traviss with Boba and Mandos, Denning with Saba, Zahn with Thrawn) enjoy using their own characters and giving them fairly large roles, I fear that John is doing the same with his prequel characters, putting them farther in the spotlight than they should be. * Except Zahn showed thrawn as being utterly flawed and was out-thought by Sidious, the Jedi didn't come out of the Vos stories that well either - nor did Vos. So it's one thing to use them but another as to how. I'd say Traviss does indeed elevate her characters though. To hook the reading SW audience, of course. Why do you think Luke was put on the cover of one of the early issues? * Because he was in it! * If anything, given the toxic nature of LOTF, I expect a lot of EU fans to be going to TUF then jumping to Legacy, which was likely the original intent, official canon be damned. JB -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 7/27 5:08pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	Jedi Ben Actually, I think 80 years would constrict any publisher. * Nope, not really. Yes, it would constrict the publisher, especially since the average lifespan is 120 and Jedi can live far longer. Because of that, Ben, Allana and their spouses and children should still be alive. Even Jaina might still be alive. Yet, it seems that they're all dead. This means that the authors must kill all of them off far sooner than should have been necessary. This also means that not only do Luke, Leia, and Han not have a happy ending, but neither do any of their children, in-laws or grandchildren. * Not necessarily, the Empire improves its position by soft power, in effect it decides to win people over by example, that's a background plot at best. But they already seem to be more powerful and in-charge than the GA by the time of Legacy. * Who are terrified to do anything lest they be noticed by Luke, so off the board. We don't know that yet. Del Rey MIGHT decide to use some of those many Sith. After all, there are so many of them that a few here or there would have no impact on Legacy. I didn't want there to be ANY Sith after Jacen.... Scratch that. I didn't want there to be any Sith after the Emperor. * Until the Ossus project was sabotaged the indications are that the GA was indeed successful! Again, I don't know that we know that for sure. If it was doing so well, the GA shouldn't have been decimated so quickly and easily. * Not so. There are those Force-sensitives from the Empire of the Hand isn't there? That would be the only thing that would be acceptable. You're also assuming any split in the jedi has to be violent, I doubt that will be so. Even if it's not violent, it doesn't seem like the IKs and the Jedi are on the best of terms. It certainly seems that there is friction between them. They do not seem to have parted amicably. * We don't know that the Empress will be Jaina, that remains fan speculation, IF Jag becomes the first Emperor, I think Jaina being Empress is a GIVEN. But until Legacy, I never would have thought that Captain Cardboard would ever have become Emperor. That is SO out of left field! Equally open to question is the IKs - who may well have been began by Roan Fel who was first a Jedi. I'll grant you this one. * Except that doesn't have to happen, that a load of people look at Legacy and assume the books have to establish anything strikes me as being indicative of a lack of vision. Legacy starts at the earliest probably +120, bags of time. Del Rey is ALREADY moving in that direction, JB. Within about 3 paragraphs they established Jag as Chief Moff and put him into position for Emperor; had Han establish the Imperial Mission; and probably start the end of the dominance of the GA with Daala made CoS. We already know that Dark Horse can't use a lot of characters or even the offspring of those characters because they are "respecting Del Rey". * Is DR worthy of that? I don't think so, but I keep hearing John Ostrander making comments about not doing anything to get in the way of Del Rey...though the very premise of Legacy already does that. That's apparently why he's using some PT characters instead of NJO characters...so he doesn't step on the toes of Del Rey. Dark Horse wouldn't have needed to worry about that if they had set Legacy 300 years after LotF, even 200 years might have been enough. * Given how SW fandom works I can tell you now there'd have been complaints. Not as many as there are now, and those complaints would have been basically unfounded. But I don't think the complaint that 90 years between the two is too short is unfounded. * Because he was in it! On what? One page??? It obviously was used to draw in readers, as was having a Skywalker character. * If anything, given the toxic nature of LOTF, I expect a lot of EU fans to be going to TUF then jumping to Legacy, which was likely the original intent, official canon be damned. While I like John as a writer, I really don't like what he did with Legacy. Not only is it too close to LotF; not only does it destroy any possible Legacy of Luke, Leia, and Han, but he also used the YV as the reason for the fall of the GA. I really don't "buy" that. Already in LotF much of the galaxy has been healed and restored. In another 100 years, almost everything should have been restored and the YV shouldn't even be such an issue any more. After all, most of the people who were involved in the war are now dead anyway and most of the galaxy should have already recovered. That premise doesn't work for me.
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 7/28 11:22am Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	COW, Yes, it would constrict the publisher, especially since the average lifespan is 120 and Jedi can live far longer. Because of that, Ben, Allana and their spouses and children should still be alive. Even Jaina might still be alive. Yet, it seems that they're all dead. This means that the authors must kill all of them off far sooner than should have been necessary. This also means that not only do Luke, Leia, and Han not have a happy ending, but neither do any of their children, in-laws or grandchildren. * Or, they're elsewhere and busy! SW fans sure are lacking in imagination these days, if someone isn't around in a story then that means...THEY MUST BE DEAD! But they already seem to be more powerful and in-charge than the GA by the time of Legacy. * Which Legacy LOTF or comics? +40 or +120 years? If the latter, it makes sense as the Empire would have become more powerful as a leading force, thus if the Empire opposes a move a host of others will follow it because they see the Empire as good. This is the soft power change that takes decades to accomplish. If the former, that sounds like DR at work. We don't know that yet. Del Rey MIGHT decide to use some of those many Sith. After all, there are so many of them that a few here or there would have no impact on Legacy. I didn't want there to be ANY Sith after Jacen.... Scratch that. I didn't want there to be any Sith after the Emperor. * DR does tend to lack imagination so your scenario is plausible but they can't do anything too high profile or DR is then left with explainng why Luke or any other Jedi, like Kyp, didn't hit them. Again, I don't know that we know that for sure. If it was doing so well, the GA shouldn't have been decimated so quickly and easily. * The indications are a substantial number of worlds backed the Empire, due to lingering hatred for the Vong who the Jedi backed with the GA supporting them in turn. That support then costs the GA many systems which gives the Empire the ability to war upon it. Even if it's not violent, it doesn't seem like the IKs and the Jedi are on the best of terms. It certainly seems that there is friction between them. They do not seem to have parted amicably. * It seems to depend on which Knight and whch Jedi meet. A Jedi will disapprove of a Knight serving a mortal above the Force and vice versa but that doesn't mean ther won't be relations between the two groups. IF Jag becomes the first Emperor, I think Jaina being Empress is a GIVEN. But until Legacy, I never would have thought that Captain Cardboard would ever have become Emperor. That is SO out of left field! * I just don't really buy that though, no matter how reformed the Empire gets. Del Rey is ALREADY moving in that direction, JB. Within about 3 paragraphs they established Jag as Chief Moff and put him into position for Emperor; had Han establish the Imperial Mission; and probably start the end of the dominance of the GA with Daala made CoS. * And this doesn't indicate a poverty of imagination I'm arguing exists? SW has a frigging galaxy, millions of systems, billions of worlds - yet the EU is content to be this narrow, small thing obssessed over dates and timelines. I don't think so, but I keep hearing John Ostrander making comments about not doing anything to get in the way of Del Rey...though the very premise of Legacy already does that. That's apparently why he's using some PT characters instead of NJO characters...so he doesn't step on the toes of Del Rey. * Who'd have thought DR would be so sensitive? Not as many as there are now, and those complaints would have been basically unfounded. But I don't think the complaint that 90 years between the two is too short is unfounded. * 90 years COW - a span we'll both be lucky to live to! But getting back to point, I don't see these restraints you keep throwing up as a bad thing: Look at the Dark Times era - one where nothing can happen, right? Yet we have Corusant Nights, arguably one of the best books done by DR. DR does their best work when they DON'T have a blank canvas. On what? One page??? It obviously was used to draw in readers, as was having a Skywalker character. * Being damn cool on that one page I'd say, I might be thinking of issue 3 though. While I like John as a writer, I really don't like what he did with Legacy. Not only is it too close to LotF; not only does it destroy any possible Legacy of Luke, Leia, and Han, but he also used the YV as the reason for the fall of the GA. I really don't "buy" that. Already in LotF much of the galaxy has been healed and restored. * But this down to DR, whose latitude for stories is set by LFL. Certainly it seems clear DHC didn't know about LOTF. In another 100 years, almost everything should have been restored and the YV shouldn't even be such an issue any more. After all, most of the people who were involved in the war are now dead anyway and most of the galaxy should have already recovered. That premise doesn't work for me. * Bantam pretty much established that the Civil War was one of limited military engagements with equally limited destruction, Alderaan was far from the norm. In contrast the Vong are established as waging total war that kills 365 trillion and wrecks huge numbers of planets, never mind how many beings were enslaved. I wouldn't see hatred enduring as being that unrealistic. JB -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 7/29 1:09pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	Jedi Ben , I see that our discussion here led to a new thread in Lit. I also noticed that Randy Stradley showed up. He said something about people thinking way back when Legacy was first mentioned that it would ruin Star Wars and that "surprise, surprise, it didn't". I really wanted to call him on that and say that I feel that it HAS ruined the post-RotJ SW, but I knew I would get carried away and I didn't want to be rude or start a message board war, so I just countered him on his "connect the dots" comment. * Or, they're elsewhere and busy! SW fans sure are lacking in imagination these days, if someone isn't around in a story then that means...THEY MUST BE DEAD! If they were alive, they wouldn't have been sitting out that war. They would have been front and center. They also wouldn't have needed Cade if there were other Skywalkers around. We wouldn't be having 2 prequel Jedi on the Jedi Council either. * Which Legacy LOTF or comics? +40 or +120 years? If the latter, it makes sense as the Empire would have become more powerful as a leading force, thus if the Empire opposes a move a host of others will follow it because they see the Empire as good. This is the soft power change that takes decades to accomplish. If the former, that sounds like DR at work. I think both. And if Legacy didn't exist, there wouldn't have been a need to have a resurgent Empire in the first place. * DR does tend to lack imagination so your scenario is plausible but they can't do anything too high profile or DR is then left with explainng why Luke or any other Jedi, like Kyp, didn't hit them. Oh, they can just make Luke and Kyp clueless like they did in DN and in LotF. * The indications are a substantial number of worlds backed the Empire, due to lingering hatred for the Vong who the Jedi backed with the GA supporting them in turn. That support then costs the GA many systems which gives the Empire the ability to war upon it. Two points here though: As I said before, the galaxy already seems to be mostly healed by the time of LotF. Things seem pretty back to normal. So why would they even need to have the Vong belatedly try to use their terra-forming technology in the first place? 90 years after LotF, it shouldn't be necessary if almost everything is already in pretty good shape at the time of LotF. The second point is that there would be very few people yet alive who had experienced the YV. Why would they be so upset and angry about them? * It seems to depend on which Knight and whch Jedi meet. A Jedi will disapprove of a Knight serving a mortal above the Force and vice versa but that doesn't mean ther won't be relations between the two groups. The Jedi didn't seem very happy about having the IKs storming the Hidden Temple if I understood the spoilers correctly. And Marasiah threatened an IK who might have been contemplating returning to the Jedi. If they were on good terms, why would Marasiah care? IF Jag becomes the first Emperor, I think Jaina being Empress is a GIVEN. But until Legacy, I never would have thought that Captain Cardboard would ever have become Emperor. That is SO out of left field! * I just don't really buy that though, no matter how reformed the Empire gets. What don't you "buy"? Do you mean that Jaina would be an Empress? Well, if she loves Jag and marries him, and if he's the Emperor, that makes her the Empress, doesn't it? * And this doesn't indicate a poverty of imagination I'm arguing exists? SW has a frigging galaxy, millions of systems, billions of worlds - yet the EU is content to be this narrow, small thing obssessed over dates and timelines. I don't like it either. But at least there was a possibility for a happy ending and for some surprises in the future before Legacy took that away. * Who'd have thought DR would be so sensitive? What do you mean by that? I think the existence of Legacy contricts both Legacy and the future Del Rey books. Now it truly doesn't matter what is written in the novels because we know how everything is going to turn out. I know that you say there are many years between the two, but it doesn't matter. Knowing what's going to happen in the future impacts the books that happen before Legacy. I didn't like the prequels for many reasons, but one big reason was that I basically knew what was going to happen. So I really didn't have much of a connection to the characters. I knew what was going to happen to them, so I just didn't become very engaged with them. * 90 years COW - a span we'll both be lucky to live to! Yes, for US it's a long time, JB. But in a universe where 120 is the normal lifespan and when Jedi can live even longer than that, 90 years is no longer all that long. Ben and Allana and their kids should be alive in Legacy. Jaina too, maybe. But getting back to point, I don't see these restraints you keep throwing up as a bad thing: Look at the Dark Times era - one where nothing can happen, right? Yet we have Corusant Nights, arguably one of the best books done by DR. But books like that don't engage me as much because I know what the future will bring. As much as I'd love to read a Luke book, I'm not all that excited about Shadows of Mindor because of when it takes place. Again, since I know the future already, it impacts that story. * But this down to DR, whose latitude for stories is set by LFL. Certainly it seems clear DHC didn't know about LOTF. JB, how could they NOT know? Maybe they didn't know every detail, but they had to know about Jacen becoming a Sith and dying. Sue Rostoni is in charge of both. SHE certainly knew what was going to happen in both. * In contrast the Vong are established as waging total war that kills 365 trillion and wrecks huge numbers of planets, never mind how many beings were enslaved. I wouldn't see hatred enduring as being that unrealistic. If almost everyone who experienced the Vong is dead, and if everything has been restored to the way it was before the arrival of the Vong, I do see that hatred as unrealistic.
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 7/29 2:52pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	COW, I see that our discussion here led to a new thread in Lit. * Yeah, decided to try out this intellectual exrecise out. If they were alive, they wouldn't have been sitting out that war. They would have been front and center. They also wouldn't have needed Cade if there were other Skywalkers around. We wouldn't be having 2 prequel Jedi on the Jedi Council either. * My supposition is they're engaged in a bigger, nastier war! I think both. And if Legacy didn't exist, there wouldn't have been a need to have a resurgent Empire in the first place. * That was already happening though, due to NJO. Oh, they can just make Luke and Kyp clueless like they did in DN and in LotF. * Well, there's always that. Two points here though: As I said before, the galaxy already seems to be mostly healed by the time of LotF. Things seem pretty back to normal. So why would they even need to have the Vong belatedly try to use their terra-forming technology in the first place? 90 years after LotF, it shouldn't be necessary if almost everything is already in pretty good shape at the time of LotF. The second point is that there would be very few people yet alive who had experienced the YV. Why would they be so upset and angry about them? * I don't really buy the total restoration line, I could buy that a few politically significant worlds had massive amounts of restoration resources pour into them which in turn allows the politicos to claim it's business as usual, while hundreds of other worlds remain wrecked and neglected. As for hatred, it rarely requires rationality or reason - both help, but are not required. The Jedi didn't seem very happy about having the IKs storming the Hidden Temple if I understood the spoilers correctly. * That was an act of absolute stupidity by Marasiah, which she then compounded by saying Bastion had the coordinates. And Marasiah threatened an IK who might have been contemplating returning to the Jedi. If they were on good terms, why would Marasiah care? * New info that, it suggests the IK are perfectly happy to poach Jedi but insist on vows being for life or you get killed. I do quite like how Legacy is ripping apart the benevolent aristocrat image SW has due to Leia, as more often than not, aristos are complete bastards. What don't you "buy"? Do you mean that Jaina would be an Empress? * Yeah, just don't see it. Well, if she loves Jag and marries him, and if he's the Emperor, that makes her the Empress, doesn't it? * If she loves him, which is a question she seems pathologically unable to answer. JB, how could they NOT know? Maybe they didn't know every detail, but they had to know about Jacen becoming a Sith and dying. Sue Rostoni is in charge of both. SHE certainly knew what was going to happen in both. * Not necessarily. Remember Legacy is up to issue 26 now and it hasn't been strictly monthly so we can assume it's been going for minimum of 2.5 years which takes us back to Feb 2006, but it would have been planned earlier which puts it probably at the time DR were doing DN. At that time, there was talk of a 9-book Old Republic series, which became the Darth Bane book with LOTF being announced instead. I don't see DR as being anywhere near as organised on this as you seem to, given what was found out about NJO's 'arc' - it wouldn't be surprising. If almost everyone who experienced the Vong is dead, and if everything has been restored to the way it was before the arrival of the Vong, I do see that hatred as unrealistic. * I have to disagree, it doesn't take much for people to hate but I do agree with Charles' scepticism on the restoration. Moving on.... It was the San Diego Comic Con recently, news of note for me was: Ennis-Dillon returning to Punisher, doing the return of Ma Gnucci no lesss! How you can have a limbless, torched woman as villain, I'm not sure but it'll be fun. DC announced Neil Gaiman is doing a Batman arc and the Superman books have got a serious plan for the future, which makes them very exciting. Then there's Final Crisis and Green Lantern stuff, both of which looks very cool. Marvel also announced War of Kings by Abnett & Lanning, given their track record and how much I like their work, it's good to see them having another high-profile event - a Marvel event I look forward to has become something of a rarity. IDW confirmed Maximum Dinobots would be tying up other plots of Furman's run, before he goes on to write the origin of the Transformers in The 13! That was a surprise, good to see IDW are retaining his skills. JB -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 7/29 3:35pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0 - Date Edited: 7/29 3:35pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Rouge77
	ChildOfWinds posted: The Jedi didn't seem very happy about having the IKs storming the Hidden Temple if I understood the spoilers correctly. And Marasiah threatened an IK who might have been contemplating returning to the Jedi. If they were on good terms, why would Marasiah care? There doesn't seem to be freedom of choice when it comes to the "subjects" in the Fel Empire, and "betrayal" - and the Fels seem to use a definition of the word that encompasses much more than people would usually think - appears to be always punishable by death. Simply, the Fels appear to be more benevolent than Imperials usually are, but when things don't go like they want them to go, the masks drop and they try to rule by terror. -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker
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Nobody145 Registered: Feb '07	Date Posted: 7/29 3:58pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	On the Legacy thing- Cade's uncle showed them the way to the IKs, then it turns out they had a spy on board, and she led the IKs to the Temple. That Temple was supposed to be the Jedi's secret hideout, but having the Imps show up uninvited with lightsabers drawn isn't exactly a friendly gesture. The IKs weren't instantly attacking anybody, or anything like that, but they sure were arrogant. Cade is just more pissed that the IKs used him to find the rest of the Jedi. If there's one thing Cade hates, its being used by anybody. On the IK thing, the IK oaths are supposed to be for life. Its not exactly flexible, not like with the Jedi, and anyway IKs aren't as altruistic as Jedi. But threatening someone whose loyalty seems to be wavering is pretty harsh. And it might be sorta like something like military service, where you sign up for however long your contract states, and you can't just leave whenever one feels like it, or there will be... consequences. And these are still Imps, so what do you expect? They're still not the main heroes anyway. And yeah, a resurgent Empire isn't the Legacy comic's fault. Even from near the beginning of the NJO, the Empire was already starting to regain influence in the galaxy. Not to mention at times it looked better than the New Republic, given it sent quite a few Star Destroyers to help repel the invasion of a New Republic world, and... I don't remember the YV War that well, but I doubt the NR did much that early in the war, given the overall trend. And at the end of the YV War, it was mentioned that states like the Imperials and the Bothans and others were on the rise, that it was a new galaxy, and that it had been united as it had never been before. The Legacy comics seemed to jump off from that point. True, the Legacy comics open with the Empire ruling the galaxy again, but at least it was implied that a stable nice GA had been managing the galaxy in the meantime, though of course, that image has been long ruined by now. By the way, JB, have you read Part 2 of the Revelations arc yet? Any thoughts on it? And ooh, a series about The 13. I wonder if the Fallen from that old Dreamwave War Within series will show up. I think the Ultimate Guide, or maybe it was the DW More than Meets the Eye mini-bio series, mentioned that there were 13 original Transformers under Primus, I believe? And IDW did reprint the older DW G1 series, not that I expect them to ever finish all those dangling plotlines from that series, not when the IDW series still has a lot left unanswered. Not sure I care too much about Dinobots, but hopefully it'll tie up the Machination plot at least, not to mention Hot Rod's current search. Although Hot Rod is probably about to be dragged back into Revelations, if I had to guess. -----signature----- Don't mind me, I'm nobody important.
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 7/29 5:29pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	Jedi Ben * Yeah, decided to try out this intellectual exrecise out. It seems that quite a few agree with me. * My supposition is they're engaged in a bigger, nastier war! LOL! Bigger than a Sith/Imperial war??? LOL!!! I think both. And if Legacy didn't exist, there wouldn't have been a need to have a resurgent Empire in the first place. * That was already happening though, due to NJO. The Empire was still just a remnant. And it could have always remained that way, or it could even have died out if not for Legacy. * I don't really buy the total restoration line, I could buy that a few politically significant worlds had massive amounts of restoration resources pour into them which in turn allows the politicos to claim it's business as usual, while hundreds of other worlds remain wrecked and neglected. I will concede that this is possible. But I don't understand why after another nearly 100 years, the galaxy wouldn't have recovered. * That was an act of absolute stupidity by Marasiah, which she then compounded by saying Bastion had the coordinates. Too bad. She was one of the few characters I used to like in Legacy. * New info that, it suggests the IK are perfectly happy to poach Jedi but insist on vows being for life or you get killed. I do quite like how Legacy is ripping apart the benevolent aristocrat image SW has due to Leia, as more often than not, aristos are complete bastards. Apparently they are more ruthless than they'd like others to think they are. * If she loves him, which is a question she seems pathologically unable to answer. But Del Rey being Del Rey, I can't see them coming up with something more clever, so I'm sure Jaina will eventually marry Jag. * Not necessarily. Remember Legacy is up to issue 26 now and it hasn't been strictly monthly so we can assume it's been going for minimum of 2.5 years which takes us back to Feb 2006, but it would have been planned earlier which puts it probably at the time DR were doing DN. I just checked the date on Betrayal. It was published in 2006. It doesn't say which month, but it must have been fairly early in the year, as two other LotF books came out that year. It takes a while to write and publish a book too, so it looks like they were being planned pretty much at the same time. So Rostoni would have known everything.
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Nobody145 Registered: Feb '07	Date Posted: 7/29 7:18pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	Actually, Betrayal and the first issues of the Legacy comic were published somewhat close together. According to Wookieepedia, Betrayal was published May 30, 2006, while Legacy #0 was published June 7, 2008. I hadn't registered on these boards yet, but I remember watching Wookieepedia closely that summer as new information was posted. So, while both were published somewhat close together, both series had probably been in planning for months already by that point. I don't remember interviews and timelines much, but both were probably started after TUF was published, so its not like there's a huge time gap in between when each series was planned out, nor that big of a time gap between when each series was launched. Heck, the Legacy comics probably have the more complex plan because its an ongoing, meant to run years, whereas LotF was only nine books, and at least a third of the books were more like sidestories focusing on each author's favorite/pet characters, though it varies between the authors how much time was wasted. And again, CoW, I believe its specifically said at the end of The Unifying Force that the Imperials were on the rise again, in terms of influence and strength, due to the new status quo galaxy, along with other races, like the Bothans I think, and due to the YV War having wiped out many of the older powers, like the Hutts were supposed to have taken a lot of damage, implying the loss of their criminal empires and all that. Of course, everything seems mostly back to normal by LotF, but still, the resurgent Second Galactic Empire probably sprang from that line. The Remnant was contributing at least one or two Star Destroyer fleets by the time the YV War finished. Heck, Pellaeon was on decent terms personally with the Solo family, enough to give them Killik Twilight. So its not just a sudden huge thing the Legacy comic just threw at us out of nowhere! -----signature----- Don't mind me, I'm nobody important.
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 7/30 2:50pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	COW, It seems that quite a few agree with me. * Is that all you care about COW? Tsk, tsk. LOL! Bigger than a Sith/Imperial war??? LOL!!! * It's a big galaxy! The Empire was still just a remnant. And it could have always remained that way, or it could even have died out if not for Legacy. * Ah, that I doubt - I suspect DR would have always done something with the Empire, they like circles remember. I will concede that this is possible. But I don't understand why after another nearly 100 years, the galaxy wouldn't have recovered. * Sheer amount of destruction. I mean we're still finding unexploded WW2 bombs over 60 years on and the Vong destruction involves ecosystem damage that's hard to reverse. Too bad. She was one of the few characters I used to like in Legacy. * Like her father, Marasiah believes that if it's all for the greater good, then that makes dodgy acts all right. But Del Rey being Del Rey, I can't see them coming up with something more clever, so I'm sure Jaina will eventually marry Jag. * Probably. I just checked the date on Betrayal. It was published in 2006. It doesn't say which month, but it must have been fairly early in the year, as two other LotF books came out that year. It takes a while to write and publish a book too, so it looks like they were being planned pretty much at the same time. So Rostoni would have known everything. * So why wasn't it co-ordinated better? I suspect DR simply isn't much of a team player. Nobody, By the way, JB, have you read Part 2 of the Revelations arc yet? * Thanks for the reminder. Any thoughts on it? * I loved it, it put the plot into overdrive, tied up some long-running threads and set up what should be a fantastic pair of issues. Hardhead's response to being shot in the head was excellent: "Ow. Hard. Head. It's not just a name, you know?" And ooh, a series about The 13. * Yep, I'm happy they're giving Furman another high-profile project, although I did find the 1st issue of All Hail Megatron to be surprisingly fun, as the 'cons run riot! Not sure I care too much about Dinobots, but hopefully it'll tie up the Machination plot at least, not to mention Hot Rod's current search. Although Hot Rod is probably about to be dragged back into Revelations, if I had to guess. * I quite like Roche's artwork so it's nice to see him getting a bigger project. JB -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 7/30 8:43pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	Rouge77 Simply, the Fels appear to be more benevolent than Imperials usually are, but when things don't go like they want them to go, the masks drop and they try to rule by terror. I see... They sound like your normal SW Imperials. So much for "benevolent". Nobody145 : having the Imps show up uninvited with lightsabers drawn isn't exactly a friendly gesture. No, it certainly isn't. And WHY would they arrive with lightsabers drawn??? This seems to indicate that the IKs are NOT on the best of terms with the Jedi. On the IK thing, the IK oaths are supposed to be for life. Its not exactly flexible, not like with the Jedi, and anyway IKs aren't as altruistic as Jedi. Life sentence, huh? Isn't their sole purpose to protect the Emperor? They actually sound a lot like those red guards Emperor Palpatine had, except that these are Force sensitive. Why does he need only Force sensitive guards anyway? But threatening someone whose loyalty seems to be wavering is pretty harsh. It certainly does! And yeah, a resurgent Empire isn't the Legacy comic's fault. Even from near the beginning of the NJO, the Empire was already starting to regain influence in the galaxy. But it didn't have to become the major government in the galaxy. And at the end of the YV War, it was mentioned that states like the Imperials and the Bothans and others were on the rise, that it was a new galaxy, and that it had been united as it had never been before. And now it's fracturing all over again. The Legacy comics DO seem to jump off from the end of the YV war. In fact, it seems to ignore absolutely everything else. It's as though the YV war were ten or fewer years ago, not more than 100, and that nothing else happened in-between. That's another reason I don't like Legacy. Actually, Betrayal and the first issues of the Legacy comic were published somewhat close together. Yes, that's what I thought. So the authors of both series should have known what was going on in the other series. Heck, Pellaeon was on decent terms personally with the Solo family, enough to give them Killik Twilight. So its not just a sudden huge thing the Legacy comic just threw at us out of nowhere! But they weren't poised to take over as the primary government in the galaxy. It bothers me that the Empire is in charge again. After all that Luke, Leia, Han, and their colleagues did to bring down the Empire and to restore a democratic/republican form of government, it grates that the galaxy is back to being ruled by the Empire again. Even worse, Han and Leia's descendants are probably the Emperors. I really HATE that! Jedi Ben Is that all you care about COW? Tsk, tsk. No, I'm just pointing out that I'm not the only one who feels that Legacy stifles what will happen in the books. I know that you don't care about that because you're not reading them anymore, but since I still want good things to happen for Luke, Leia, Han, and their kids, I don't like that Legacy makes their future hopeless. * It's a big galaxy! Not big enough to have another LARGER war than the Sith/Imperial one! And if they're alive, why aren't they at the hidden temple? I was REALLY hoping that we'd find Ben there and maybe other Skywalker/Solo descendants, but no.... * Sheer amount of destruction. I mean we're still finding unexploded WW2 bombs over 60 years on and the Vong destruction involves ecosystem damage that's hard to reverse. They have far better technology than we do. * Like her father, Marasiah believes that if it's all for the greater good, then that makes dodgy acts all right. In the first place, how is threatening to kill someone for leaving the IKs, "for the greater good"? I would have hoped that Marasiah would have found better ways than doing "dodgy acts". * So why wasn't it co-ordinated better? I suspect DR simply isn't much of a team player. Actually, it looks like exactly the opposite. DR seems to be trying too hard to connect the dots to Legacy, while DH refuses to use any characters or events from the novels, using the excuse that they don't want to step on the toes of DR. But how difficult could it be to make up the name of a Jedi that learned from Luke or one of his students and have that Jedi be on the Jedi council instead of KK or the other prequel Jedi? Couldn't they have made up a Horn or a Durran descendant to use? How could that realistically have stepped on Del Rey's toes?
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Nobody145 Registered: Feb '07	Date Posted: 7/31 4:55am Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	On the IKs arriving with lit lightsabers thing, I think they were going for a showy entrance, something along the lines of "We have ARRIVED!", but yeah, that didn't go so well. And I don't see the Fels so much as normal Imps who pretend to act civil, but rather they try to act civil, but are willing to do whatever is necessary when the situation requires it. Normal Imps would go for the extreme solution first and not care about any others. Unfortunately, with the state the Legacy galaxy is in, drastic measures are usually needed. Threatening Azlyn is a bit extreme, but that's one way to enforce discipline, I guess. And its not like the entire galaxy instantly embraced the Empire. The Empire conquered the dominant power, and Coruscant, and that's how it wound up in charge again. Although the GA was losing planets, but not every seceding planet went to the Empire. I hope. Even during the YV War, the Remnant apparently still had decent military strength, enough so that by LotF, they had a significant amount of Star Destroyers. And CoW, come on, when the Legacy comics started, the YV War was the latest chronological work, so of course the plot jumps off from there, and relates to it a lot more than LotF ever did. Even if it is a century or so, some people have long memories, especially given how brutal the YV War was. Its not that big of a problem. Oh, forget it, I know you hate just about everything about the Legacy comic, so never mind. To JB: Huh, most of the rest of the responses to that new AHM series haven't sounded that positive. I wasted money on that Focus on Decepticon thing a while ago, and it had a few preview pages, and I already feel like I read most of the issue after that, which probably isn't a good sign. Sure, watching 'cons run amuck is fun, but I just don't care for them jumping forward so much when Revelations isn't even finished yet. And yeah, I loved the Hardhead issue. Sad to see Nightbeat end up like that, but I'm glad we finally found out about why they subverted Nightbeat, and that plotline has been concluded, and glad to see someone like Hardhead who deals with the problem no matter what, sometimes its nice to not be too sentimental or bound by restraints, especially in a no-hope situation like Hardhead was, not to mention it actually sounds like Hardhead actually put a dent in Nemesis Prime's master plan. A Nemesis Prime vs. Optimus Prime showdown sounds awesome at first, but... on second thought, it would probably be extremely one-sided though. So far, I don't think we've had anything like a magical Matrix of Leadership in this continuity that could turn the tide against the zombies, and otherwise, Optimus has been seriously overshadowed by all his opponents. Thuderwing shut down due to a power source glitch, though it was cool to see Optimus charge in, that same glitch defeated Megatron, Sixshot was just ridiuclously overpowered (and his one failsafe has probably been removed, of course) and he wasn't actually defeated but he actually left, and Omega Supreme couldn't handle Monstructor, much less Optimus, so now that the final boss is looking like he'll intervene directly... this isn't going to be pretty. But at least it'll look cool. -----signature----- Don't mind me, I'm nobody important.
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 7/31 12:04pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	COW, No, I'm just pointing out that I'm not the only one who feels that Legacy stifles what will happen in the books. * All right then, when have you ever seen the notion that Legacy doesn't restrict stories? It's rare in Lit hence why I wanted to do a thread exploring that, it's new ground instead of the boring old stuff. I know that you don't care about that because you're not reading them anymore, but since I still want good things to happen for Luke, Leia, Han, and their kids, I don't like that Legacy makes their future hopeless. * If Legacy ends with the Sith or Fel ruling the galaxy as dictators, then it's hopeless but it's far from played out. They have far better technology than we do. * Even that can only go so far and politics will determine who does and doesn't get it. In the first place, how is threatening to kill someone for leaving the IKs, "for the greater good"? I would have hoped that Marasiah would have found better ways than doing "dodgy acts". * The greater good is whatever benefits the Emperor. That the IKs are so insecure that they have to resort to death penalties says much about just how established they really are. Actually, it looks like exactly the opposite. DR seems to be trying too hard to connect the dots to Legacy, while DH refuses to use any characters or events from the novels, using the excuse that they don't want to step on the toes of DR. But how difficult could it be to make up the name of a Jedi that learned from Luke or one of his students and have that Jedi be on the Jedi council instead of KK or the other prequel Jedi? Couldn't they have made up a Horn or a Durran descendant to use? How could that realistically have stepped on Del Rey's toes? * I think the history of NJO has much to do with this, there DHC was ready to work with DR and it all went sour. Get fooled once.... Nobody, Huh, most of the rest of the responses to that new AHM series haven't sounded that positive. * I have heard TF fans have gone into meltdown over it, yes. I wasted money on that Focus on Decepticon thing a while ago, and it had a few preview pages, and I already feel like I read most of the issue after that, which probably isn't a good sign. Sure, watching 'cons run amuck is fun, but I just don't care for them jumping forward so much when Revelations isn't even finished yet. * Well I did and still do have reservations over it, but I'm also willing to give it a chance. And yeah, I loved the Hardhead issue. Sad to see Nightbeat end up like that, but I'm glad we finally found out about why they subverted Nightbeat, and that plotline has been concluded, and glad to see someone like Hardhead who deals with the problem no matter what, sometimes its nice to not be too sentimental or bound by restraints, especially in a no-hope situation like Hardhead was, not to mention it actually sounds like Hardhead actually put a dent in Nemesis Prime's master plan. * Yep, seriously screwed it up. A Nemesis Prime vs. Optimus Prime showdown sounds awesome at first, but... on second thought, it would probably be extremely one-sided though. So far, I don't think we've had anything like a magical Matrix of Leadership in this continuity that could turn the tide against the zombies, and otherwise, Optimus has been seriously overshadowed by all his opponents. Thuderwing shut down due to a power source glitch, though it was cool to see Optimus charge in, that same glitch defeated Megatron, Sixshot was just ridiuclously overpowered (and his one failsafe has probably been removed, of course) and he wasn't actually defeated but he actually left, and Omega Supreme couldn't handle Monstructor, much less Optimus, so now that the final boss is looking like he'll intervene directly... this isn't going to be pretty. But at least it'll look cool. * Cool it will be, but I do agree that it's hard to see how they can win this one. * Did you see any other news at SDCC that interested you? JB -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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RK_Striker_JK_5 Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 7/31 1:47pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	ChildOfWinds: So do I! Why can't we have some good, old-fashioned, swashbuckling adventure stories rather than Galaxy-threatening conflicts or tons of Sith coming out of the framework???? It'd be too nice and refreshing, that's why. Sigh I'm not a Denning fan either, Striker. About the only thing I really like that he wrote was when he had Luke pinning Jacen to his seat with the Force and having that seat go down, down, down, until Jacen was actually on the floor like a little kid! Good. Hmm, that scene almost makes up for SBS... well, okay. Nothing could make up for SBS, but that comes the closest. Dang, a badass Luke? Who would've thunk it? And I felt it took one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time and Kyp Durron to take him down, and even then, they didn't take him out. I suppose there was that... Luke's so great, not even a TOTJ Sith lord with help can permanently stop him! I'm glad. It's terrible what has been done to most of those characters from the YJK books. I wonder what KJA and his wife think about all of the death and darkness that has befallen those characters? I don't know. I do know he gets trashed a lot on the lit boards. Unnecessarily, I might add. Hmm, sometimes when I tell that little tidbit of my life, I admit to expecting someone to make fun of me and mock me. Shrug you know what ever happen with that scene ? I mean Mara could have shared some revelations, wisdom, caring words, and her love. all we hear is that Luke sees Mara. way to be a tease. "Luke, Jacen killed me!" "Duh..." LOL! That's pretty much how dense Luke has been in this series! Dang... really? I was being my usual mocking self. Jedi ben: RK, * Been a while! lol, sorry, dude. Been busy, you know? * FS was a good read but I really want to know when the threads are getting picked up. So do I. I wanna know about 'Fleet Captain Sisko' and the other paths. Hmm, 'Lives of Sisko'? * It was indeed excellent, Dukat was the total bastard we know him to be but throughout maintains his wonderfully deluded benevolent self-image. "You don't understand. I'm the best thing to ever happen to Bajor!" * But frankly anyone who doesn't read Gorkon/Klingon Empire is missing a great set of stories! Agreed 110%. When I do my SW/ST crossover/rewrite, the IKS Gorkon will be there, fighting the Borg. * Very good, Dukat becomes worse than we thought, but the DSN relaunch is in need of some attention to remind pople it exists. Yeah, quality trumps quantity, but we still need some quantity for the quality to shine through! * Seen the news from San Diego on this front? Actually sounds very good. No, what's the news? * A breather of 100 years? Come on, I know why people go down this chain of thought but it really is one devoid of merit. And yet it is there, staring us in the face. * It's at least 80 years, I don't buy that it is that much of a limit - if it really is then DR are simply creatively bankrupt. Looks at LOTF I am... not going to disagree with you here. * Their outlook will be shown to fail, they will likely die in battle and it'll be Luke's tradition that is looked to. It'd be nice if we saw some of Luke's Jedi, along with his tradition, though. * Nope, not really. Besides Dr only have less time because they've thrown away at least 20 years - on a numerical basis DR has done far fewer stories with a greater timespan than Bantam did. They've wasted one of their primary resources - the other being characters and we kow how that's been depleted. Hi, I'm the choir. You're preaching to it. Yeah, stories, time and characters. What's left? We already know that Dark Horse can't use a lot of characters or even the offspring of those characters because they are "respecting Del Rey". * Is DR worthy of that? No, but due to canon policy, it's gotta be respected anyway. * If anything, given the toxic nature of LOTF, I expect a lot of EU fans to be going to TUF then jumping to Legacy, which was likely the original intent, official canon be damned. I jump from the YJK to Legacy, skipping the sucky stuff. IDW confirmed Maximum Dinobots would be tying up other plots of Furman's run, before he goes on to write the origin of the Transformers in The 13! That was a surprise, good to see IDW are retaining his skills. Awesome! I want Alphe Trion confirmed to be one of the Thirteen! Nobody145: And ooh, a series about The 13. I wonder if the Fallen from that old Dreamwave War Within series will show up. COnsidering TF's multi-versal abilitiy, I don't see why not. I think the Ultimate Guide, or maybe it was the DW More than Meets the Eye mini-bio series, mentioned that there were 13 original Transformers under Primus, I believe? The Ultimate Guide mentioned them. I have it, along with the MTMTE bios and love both. -----signature----- E-married to the wonderful DarthIshtar. Now also her Padawan. Member of the Y.J.K. Revolution Staring into the Darkness http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/27537567/p1/?23
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 7/31 2:55pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	RK, lol, sorry, dude. Been busy, you know? * Heh, it happens! FS was a good read but I really want to know when the threads are getting picked up. So do I. I wanna know about 'Fleet Captain Sisko' and the other paths. Hmm, 'Lives of Sisko'? * Why do I have the feeling some of them will be a case of: You thought he was a hard bastar before? Watch this.... Agreed 110%. When I do my SW/ST crossover/rewrite, the IKS Gorkon will be there, fighting the Borg. * Go one better, have them engage the Vong: "I was alone against 10 biotech warriors, without any support and I killed them all! One by shoving his organic armour up his backside into his stomach! The other I impaled on his own weapon..." * And Klag goes on...and on...and on... And yet it is there, staring us in the face. * I have but one retort: Read Death Star and then say it's destruction doesn't matter, regardless of what happens 100, 1000 or 10,000 years hence the victory will remain inviolable. It'd be nice if we saw some of Luke's Jedi, along with his tradition, though. * Nice yeah, but Legacy already has one of the largest casts I know of in comics, I doubt it has the room for more, better to bring them in as one tradition falls. JB -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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