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Author	Topic: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 8/27 4:24pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0 - Date Edited: 8/27 4:25pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Rouge77
	ChildOfWinds posted: I'm afraid you're right, but I'm hoping that this doesn't play out as we're expecting it to. For one thing, I don't want to see any more rifts in the Jedi for at least as long as Luke is alive. I expect there to be rifts - there seems to be one always when Luke is not around forcefully telling the Jedi Masters what to do - but it might be just Jaina who leaves the Jedi Order. ChildOfWinds posted: Those two duels between Jacen and Jaina needed some emotion and some dialogue. The two of them said so very little while they were hacking away at each other. Look at how Luke and Vader spoke to one another; tried to seduce one another to the Light/dark. Jaina should have already realized from this that Jacen wasn't utterly committed to the Dark Side - the serious darksiders always tend to goad and try to make the Jedi fall. ChildOfWinds posted: That would have left many more possible storylines for the future that were snuffed out with Jacen's life. WHY did Jacen and Mara need to die??? I don't think that anyone has ever explained that to my satisfaction. I have seen it asked in TOS forums, and the only answer is that Jacen had to die, that he couldn't live longer than Invincible. And claiming such thing is no answer, as it leaves out why Jacen had to die? Looking at the FotJ rumours, I really can't understand why Jacen couldn't have survived, even as a villain - how could they really think that Daala can be the main villain of a 9 book series? -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker
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FireJade Registered: Nov '05	Date Posted: 8/27 10:23pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	Rouge77 posted: Jaina should have already realized from this that Jacen wasn't utterly committed to the Dark Side - the serious darksiders always tend to goad and try to make the Jedi fall. And why is this? I've never quite understood it, especially under the Rule of Two. If a Sith Lord doesn't have an apprentice, then I can understand why he would want to tempt a Jedi to the Dark Side. If he does, but spies a potentially more powerful apprentice, then he can do this to potential apprentice. But if there is a Jedi who is not a candidate for Sith apprentice, whether because he or she is too weak or because the Sith Lord doesn't think he or she is worth the effort, why does the Sith Lord seem to be under some kind of obligation to goad them and to make them fall. To do so for the point of their suffering (which is the only reason I think of besides servitude) is simply sadistic in most cases, and I don't think the Dark Side equates to sadism. -----signature----- Luke: Still, I think I make a pretty good Luke Skywalker. Mara: Of course you do. Luke: So before you began impersonating Mara, what was your real hair color? Mara: Farmboy, you're asking for a beating... --- LotF: Betrayal by Aaron Allston (2006), pg. 22
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Nobody145 Registered: Feb '07	Date Posted: 8/28 12:22am Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	Raw dark side energy doesn't mean someone has to be sadistic, but usually, most darksiders are just huge jerks, arrogant, with big egos, etc., and just like to cause pain and suffering, so causing someone to fall and go insane is always a nice plus. Erm, hypothetically speaking . It also causes more chaos and weakens the foe mentally, and one can always use more minions. Dooku did that during the Clone Wars, I think, corrupt a few more Jedi here and there to help form his personal... Acolytes, or whatever he called them. As for a big Sith Lord always trying to corrupt the Jedi trying to defeat them- well, if the Jedi has to turn to the darkside to kill them, then even if the Sith dies in the process, then they've still ruined the Jedi in the process, possibly permanently, so that the Jedi might end up becoming a worse monster/enemy than the original Sith, or just end up traumatized for years. Either way, the Sith still ends up doing damage, even after his or her death. Lumiya's death was like this, as she intended for Luke to think she had killed Mara, and her death ruined Luke at least for the short-term future, and who knows how much longer than that even. And just because Caedus didn't try to corrupt Jaina doesn't necessarily mean he's not completetly commited to the darkside. There's that ego to factor in, as Jacen doesn't think his sister is worth bothering to corrupt as he thinks himself the greatest thing ever, that the rest of his family can't compare to him. Even in the final book, Caedus can't believe that Jaina did that much damage to him, so he remains fixated on another assassination attempt by Luke. Caedus had been trying out a few apprentices here and there, first Ben, and even after Ben found out about Caedus killing his mother, Caedus was still trying to break Ben to make him a suitable Sith apprentice, and after that, Tahiri was a consolation prize, and a convenient spy inside the Jedi Order, and after she was outed, she was still a useful Force-sensitive enforcer. So those two were the Jedi he wast trying to corrupt, though Ben once he finally wised up stopped following Jacen immediately, and after Tahiri found out there is no way to ever bring back Anakin, her heart wasn't into following Caedus much either. Anyway, in terms of darksiders corrupting people, psychological warfare can be pretty effective. Heck, on the Wookiee, they've even given it an official name. Under the Rule of Two, it ensures that there will always be a potential apprentice afterwards, even if it'll take the corrupted Jedi a while to go full-on Sith, and anyway, there's probably a certain challenge and pleasure involved in bringing down a formerly good person and twisting them into an evil bastard. The recent Batman movie sorta touched on that subject, I think, and Palpatine was a master at it, turning Dooku from a Jedi Master into a Sith Lord, and then using Dooku to really begin Anakin's drastic fall. Killing a Jedi is relatively easy, ruining them is much more complicated, which is probably why Palpatine tried to turn Luke on the second Death Star. Vader was just trying to avoid having to kill his son. And as Krayt said somewhat recently, the Sith are always reborn in the ranks of the Jedi (which unfortunately is somewhat true, but the Jedi Order is usually the largest Force sect in the galaxy so its partially a statstics thing), so Sith are always trying to set up more Sith elsewhere. Luke has mostly gotten over it, but unfortunately, by LotF, he had become so powerful, they had to write him out of the final battle somehow, and hence we got the last few messy books of the series. -----signature----- Don't mind me, I'm nobody important.
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 8/28 12:41pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	CoW, That does sound very good. I always get my issues late, so I won't be able to read it for myself for a while, but I'm glad to hear that the author seems to be bringing this part of KotoR to a satisfying conclusion. * We've still 3 parts to go, but Part 1 has set an excellent standard. I definitely prefer KotOR to Legacy as you well know. I think Legacy has far too many characters, so it doesn't have enough page space to do justice to all of them. * But it does have the issues, Legacy likely reads better in trade which also helps it build an audience. Some characters even disappear for far too many months at a time. * Yet you could say that's a more novel style than comic, with characters appearing as they need to rather than their appearance being mandatory. I've been reading the spoiler threads, so I do know most of what is happening in that series even if I don't want to purchase the issues. * It's a good way of keeping informed, I did the same on LOTF and, by all accounts, that sounds to have been the best option! -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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RK_Striker_JK_5 Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 8/29 4:33pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	ChildOfWinds: This is true, R, and I don't mind that really. What I DO mind though is when the ending book of a series sets up possible future stories, but DOESN'T bring the series itself to a reasonable conclusion. As you said, Invincible had a really hasty and unsatisfying ending. Daala is CoS???? WHAT???? Jag is a Moff????? Han and Leia are going to raise Alana instead of Tenel Ka???? Han Solo sets up the Imperial Mission???? We get absolutely no reactions to Jacen's death except Jaina's. Luke and Ben, who were very important to the story and major characters in most of the books, just disappear in the epilogue, and we never get to see them interact with one another after Ben's captivity??? This book was far too rushed and left the reader very unsatisfied, not only because of Jacen's death but because of so many other things as well. Yeah. LOTF shut the door on a lot of stuff. It also set the record for most suck in a single book, actually surpassing SBS. No, seriously. More nonsense/hurt/pain came out of that book than ROTS times a billion. The rest of the Skywalker/Solos should've just commited suicide to end the pain. That doesn't sound good! I'm glad your friend was able to help you out! So am I. I've even begun writing and posted a new viggie to Beyond. Now to finally start that Princess Bride/SW crossover... Fate of the Jedi, right? Considering the other titles... their fate is death? Slow, painful death with a helping of humiliation on the side? Unfortunately, the way things have been going, you're probably right. Yeah. The titles leave me with the image of some villian twirling his mustache as he plots more pain for the Solo/Skywalkers. I'm rereading old stuff, rewathing old stuff. Oh, and writing out my own fanfic and takes on things too. That's probably best! Yeah. I might restart the YJK. 12 times isn't enough for that series. I guess you can look at it that way. Poor Luke always gets blamed when a Jedi chooses to do bad things. I guess it's only fair that he would get credit when they do something well. Yeah, Windy. No reason to look at the bad all the time. Luke did a great job with Tionne, Kam, Dorsk, Kyp after a while... He chose a good bunch to start with. It should've won, yeah. ANH is my favorite SW film, definitely. Mine too! Between me and two other guys I know named Eric, we can quote, verbatim, the entire movie. Of course, it is so quotable. "You're all clear, kid! Now let's blow this thing and go home!" "Now I am the Master!" "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine..." Argh, someone stop me! This and all the rest: Very nicely said, Striker! Isn't it sad that the authors of a young adult series "got" the characters much better than the authors of the adult novels did??? Thanks, and yeah. Nothing since the YJK's matched the YJK, chronologically. Rouge77: Probably more like more of the same we had in DN and LotF: What will be the relationship of the Jedi to the GA government? Can they make any decisions when Luke isn't around? And one part of the "fate" of the Jedi in FotJ will very likely be the founding of the Imperial Knights of IR by Jaina, so a very tiny schism seems to be in the cards. So... more pain, needless death... Because that's what we got in the DNT and LOTF... and the NJO, too. Seriously, that's their fallback. Kill someone for shock value. Jedi Ben: All Hail Megatron was utter carnage on the grand scale as the 'Cons blow up the Brooklyn Bridge with many people on it and then proceed to smash the tunnels with Devastator! And that is after creaming hundreds of soldiers to death with Frenzy. The art is more traditional, the painted panels of the last issue being absent, but it's still entertaining. Sounds like G1 unleashed, almost, lol. In all seriousness, it's almost nice to see it acknowledged how truly powerful and awe-inspiring Transformers can be. * It's a good way of keeping informed, I did the same on LOTF and, by all accounts, that sounds to have been the best option! Yeah, it was. We both saved a lot of money, there. Nobody145: Oh yes, don't mind the remarks I make about my low intelligence, they're part-joke, part self-depreciation, and partly due to low self-esteem, but this isn't really the place to discuss that kind of problems. I've gone through the same exact things, Nobody. If you ever need to talk.vent, just PM me. And I talk about the YJK being a small part of me not killing myself, so don't worry about venting here, either. And I know in the old Transformers movie Megatron had conquered Cybertron, but at that point, it didn't seem like due to one side having a huge advantage over the other in terms of superweapons or anything like that. Good point. I guess G1 Megatron doesn't get as much credit as he should, there. In IDW, I have no idea how they would ever handle something like Sixshot, and he's just a Decepticon superweapon. Thunderwing and Monstructor aren't even Decepticon created, they're beyond conventional Transformers technology, so so far there's nothing to match them. Can't comment about Sixshot, since you're right. But Thunderwing, both Autbot and Decepticon teamed up against him. Not sure about Monstructor, I'll admit. Ah, actually that was more in response to CoW and JK Dart's responses to one of my earlier quips about my supposedly low intelligence, nothing relating to your post, JB! I think you meant me, dude. Sorry for the misunderstanding, I know you weren't trying to be insulting or anything like that. Sorry, I should probably quote more stuff more often, but I'm too lazy too. Maybe I'll categorize my responses by user names next time, hm... Works for me. -----signature----- E-married to the wonderful DarthIshtar. Now also her Padawan. Member of the Y.J.K. Revolution Staring into the Darkness http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/27537567/p1/?23
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 8/30 8:00pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	Rouge77 I expect there to be rifts - there seems to be one always when Luke is not around forcefully telling the Jedi Masters what to do - but it might be just Jaina who leaves the Jedi Order. I hope no one leaves. I really don't want to see Jaina be the one who creates the Imperial Knights. What a terrible thing for her parents, if she does. They lost both of their sons to death then, and their daughter to the Empire. I have seen it asked in TOS forums, and the only answer is that Jacen had to die, that he couldn't live longer than Invincible. And claiming such thing is no answer, as it leaves out why Jacen had to die? Do you mean to say that they're saying that Jacen had to die but they're not giving a reason why? That's ridiculous. Jacen DIDN'T need to die. There were many other (and better!) directions that the story could have gone in where Jacen didn't need to be killed off. Looking at the FotJ rumours, I really can't understand why Jacen couldn't have survived, even as a villain - how could they really think that Daala can be the main villain of a 9 book series? That doesn't make any sense to me either. Actually, Jacen could have been a very formidable villain. He could have been another Palpatine because of his Skywalker class Force strength. Nobody145 Lumiya's death was like this, as she intended for Luke to think she had killed Mara, and her death ruined Luke at least for the short-term future, and who knows how much longer than that even. I really worry that this might be what they use to keep Luke from being a major hero pretty much forever. I hope I'm wrong, but I really don't trust Del Rey. They've pretty much ruined Luke and most of the other characters already. , but the Jedi Order is usually the largest Force sect in the galaxy Not so in Legacy, unfortunately. Jedi Ben * We've still 3 parts to go, but Part 1 has set an excellent standard. Amazingly, KotOR arrived right after I said that I usually get it really late. That was quite an issue! While I never totally trusted Haazen, I certainly didn't expect him to be a Sith, especially the very one the Covenant has supposedly been trying to keep a watch to avoid! And it turns out that Lucien, who was so afraid of the Sith reappearing in the galaxy was actually TAUGHT by a Sith Lord! Yikes! Imagine how he'd feel about that! As I said in the KotoR thread though, I was surprised by how aggressively the Jedi Council reacted to the information about the killing of the padawans. I expected some representatives to go to the Draay compound and demand answers from the Covenant and TALK about what happened, not go right into battle, lightsabers blazing. The author came into the thread and said that we should consider that Xamar knew about the Sith artifacts and maybe about some other things that we don't know yet. Still, I would have thought that only the five Masters did anything evil (killing the Padawans), and two of them were dead and one was confessing. So they were really only going in for Lucien and Q'inala. Even though there were a lot of covenant people, I thought the rest were like Celeste, honestly trying to be vigilant to be sure the Sith didn't return, but basically good Jedi. I guess I was wrong about that. It seemed so chilling, jarring, and confusing to see Jedi fighting Jedi when I was expecting a Jedi delegation seeking answers and possibly planning to discipline or arrest the two Covenant members. I didn't think the other covenant members were guilty or even that they knew about what the five Masters had done to their apprentices. Now if the Jedi already knew about Haazen, then I could have understood why they arrived as they did. But the Haazen reveal came later. * Yet you could say that's a more novel style than comic, with characters appearing as they need to rather than their appearance being mandatory. True, but with the shorter style, I think it tends to make it more pronounced that there isn't room for everyone. * It's a good way of keeping informed, I did the same on LOTF and, by all accounts, that sounds to have been the best option! Oh, yes! Unless you can get if from the library, it's best to just read the spoilers. That's worked fine for me with Legacy. I have started to read that first Corscant Nights book. ( I did buy this one.) So far though, I've been disappointed. I can't say that I have "connected" with any of the characters yet. The only one that I felt anything for was that Piell, I think his name was who got killed fairly early in the book, when I just thought he was going to get away. Somehow, the book doesn't seem like SW and I'm not sure why. It just seems more like a book that could take place in any universe in the seedy parts of town with the dregs of the galaxy. The Jedi haven't been able to use their Force skills all that much because they don't want to get caught. Maybe that's part of why it doesn't seem all that "Star Warsy". I'm hoping that as I get to know the characters better and as the plot picks up a bit, that I'll like it better. Right now, it's kind of "meh". I keep finding my mind wandering as I'm reading it and that's NEVER a good sign. RK_Striker_JK_5 : LOTF shut the door on a lot of stuff. It also set the record for most suck in a single book, actually surpassing SBS. I think Invincible may even have surpassed The Crystal Star as the worst SW book ever! No, seriously. More nonsense/hurt/pain came out of that book than ROTS times a billion. This is true. And the surviving Skywalker/Solos were ruined even more than they were in the NJO and DN. So am I. I've even begun writing and posted a new viggie to Beyond. Now to finally start that Princess Bride/SW crossover... How is the CHaron Force story coming along? Did you and the others ever finish the sequel? Fate of the Jedi, right? Considering the other titles... their fate is death? Slow, painful death with a helping of humiliation on the side? That's what I'm afraid of, both the deaths AND the further humiliation. Del Rey has truly not shown respect for the characters it inherited, either the film characters or the characters who were created in Bantam. If I were Timothy Zahn, I'd be pretty upset about what was done to Mara, Jacen, Pelleaon, Anakin, etc. Karrde doesn't even show up anymore, not even at Mara's funeral. Between me and two other guys I know named Eric, we can quote, verbatim, the entire movie. Of course, it is so quotable. It is, isn't it? Seriously, that's their fallback. Kill someone for shock value. Yeah, and now what? They hardly have any characters left at all to be either heroes or villains. And Del Rey created so few. Poor Ben STILL doesn't have a friend his own age!
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Nobody145 Registered: Feb '07	Date Posted: 8/30 10:53pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	CoW I'm actually not sure which is my least Star Wars book these days. I've read Crystal Star, and that was the worst Star Wars book for a while... then there were suddeny a lot more contenders for worst SW book ever. During the NJO days, I didn't care much for books that had Jacen too much (I was never that big a fan of Traitor, either, despite the awesome writer). Then there were those Republic Commando books, but those weren't main series books at least. Then LotF hit, and while I still can't decide on a least-SW book ever, it would probably be Sacrifice, Revelation or Invincible, but more likely one of the first two, since... well, at least Invincible had some good parts. And yeah, it isn't a good year for Zahn characters (not to mention Zahn continuity... I won't say more, it relates to TFU), but I prefer Karrde remain in character limbo rather than get dragged out to die or something. Isolder has shown up quite a few times over the years (though Hapes hasn't really improved at all in all that time, unfortunately), then he dies because Darth Caedus is too moronic to check to see if Isolder's genes had already been sampled forthe bio-weapon, a waste of another good character. And its arguable whether Ben will ever get any friends his own age. At this rate... I'd say probably not, but they're going to have to give him a girlfriend at one point. There's already that Kiara girl from Exile, then Seha (maybe), if any other character besides Allston ever use those characters again. Cade's already gotten at least several possible ones, with a current confirmed, but at least one other (no, I don't mean the Sith Twi'lek) possible choice that's now part of his crew. I'm not going to bother talking about Legacy here, as I know CoW's distate for that series, but I'm just comparing the new up and coming Skywalker characters. And yeah, KotOR continues to be awesome. Now I just wish my local bookstore would get the KotOR Campaign Guide in, dammit. I did manage to get my hands on the 4th KotOR TPB andn it is awesome having all those issues in one place. RK Striker ...how'd I get your name mixed up with that other name I'll never understand... oh well. And anyway, on to Transformers. In the old 1986 Transformer movie, while they had Devestator wrecking a lot of things, at least the Dinobots arrived eventually to take them on, but at the same time, even with Devestator, it took most of the night for the Decepticons to finally wear down Autobot City's defenses. Its just too bad they couldn't have used Metroplex too. In IDW, once they call in Sixshot, the entire Autobot force there, including Optimus Prime, can't dent him. Even Sixshot can barely compete with the Reapers. And its already obvious how ridiculously powerful Thunderwing and Monstructor are. Its really sad that the early part of the Optimus Prime Spotlight describes how powerful Omega Supreme is... and then Omega Supreme is slaughtered by Monstructor. I'm kind of curious how Omega ever sealed them before. For that matter, I don't know why Omega didn't just strike the gestalt's weakpoint earlier himself. -----signature----- Don't mind me, I'm nobody important.
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 8/31 8:12am Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0 - Date Edited: 8/31 8:39am (1 edits total) Edited By: ChildOfWinds
	Nobody145 :I'm actually not sure which is my least Star Wars book these days. I've read Crystal Star, and that was the worst Star Wars book for a while... then there were suddeny a lot more contenders for worst SW book ever. Come to think of it, you're right. There ARE a lot of contenders for worst SW book. Why is it that authors aren't willing to write fun adventure stories anymore? Give the characters a BREAK from all the doom and gloom and sadness and suffering! During the NJO days, I didn't care much for books that had Jacen too much (I was never that big a fan of Traitor, either, despite the awesome writer). I wasn't either. In fact, I greatlly disliked Traitor even though it was written so well. That's why I'm a little concerned about Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor. I'm afraid it may be too dark and violent too. I've never read the RC books. You're right that Sacrifice, Revelation, and Invincible were terrible. After reading the most recent awful book (Invincible), one tends to forget a bit how bad the others were. But now that you mention it, I probably hated Sacrifice the most. That was the book in which they killed off Mara. And they didn't even let her have an heroic death trying to save someone. No, they had her go out as an assassin who was actually killed by Jacen in self-defense. AND, Sacrifice had my least favorite event: Luke's vengeance killing of Lumiya. I still say that the true character, especially at that point in his life, would not have done that, would not have thrown 40 years of his beliefs and his moral code out the window like that. I hate the way that Luke has been degraded by the Del Rey books. And yeah, it isn't a good year for Zahn characters (not to mention Zahn continuity... I won't say more, it relates to TFU), but I prefer Karrde remain in character limbo rather than get dragged out to die or something. That's a good point about Karrde. At this point, I wish they would have stopped using Luke, Leia, and Han in the books after VotF. Their future looked bright, successful, and happy....Then look at what Del Rey did to them. And its arguable whether Ben will ever get any friends his own age. At this rate... I'd say probably not, And isn't that a shame???!!! One of the things I loved about the OT films was the camarraderie among Luke, Leia, and Han. I loved their relationships and having them interact with one another. I enjoyed watching (and later, reading about) them working together. Poor Ben doesn't even have anyone his own age to talk to. I'm not going to bother talking about Legacy here, as I know CoW's distate for that series, but I'm just comparing the new up and coming Skywalker characters. Oh, I don't mind at all that you talk about Legacy. I do want to keep up on what is happening. I'm STILL hoping that someday in the future things will change enough that I might want to jump back onboard. At the moment though, Legacy just seems to be more of the same doom and gloom in the galaxy. Instead of seeing the Jedi on missions or having adventures or exploring, we have sullen anti-heroes and tons of Sith to read about. The galaxy is again a mess. That's what bugs me more than anything, as it means that Luke, Leia, and Han were total failures. They failed to leave a stable government. They failed to leave an unfractured Jedi Order. They failed to see the plentiful Sith just sitting by laughing at how naive and foolish the "good guys" were. If Legacy had been set at least 300 to 500 years after LotF, I really wouldn't have so much of a problem with it. But it's just too close to the book era. That's becoming more and more evident with each new Del Rey book, but I knew this was going to be a problem when I first heard about Legacy before the first issue even came out. Less than 100 years, especially in a galaxy where lifespans are longer than ours, was just too soon. And yeah, KotOR continues to be awesome. Now I just wish my local bookstore would get the KotOR Campaign Guide in, dammit. I flipped through it at Borders last week, but I didn't buy it. It's pretty huge, and there's too much technical stuff for me. I don't play the RPG games, and it doesn't exactly read like a novel, so I decided not to pick it up. Edit: Nobody, our discussion about least favorite books gave me the idea to start a discussion in the Lit version of SOS about favorite Luke moments/roles and least favorite Luke moments/roles. Come and share yours!
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 8/31 2:52pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	COW, Amazingly, KotOR arrived right after I said that I usually get it really late. * Heh. Nifty. That was quite an issue! While I never totally trusted Haazen, I certainly didn't expect him to be a Sith, especially the very one the Covenant has supposedly been trying to keep a watch to avoid! And it turns out that Lucien, who was so afraid of the Sith reappearing in the galaxy was actually TAUGHT by a Sith Lord! Yikes! Imagine how he'd feel about that! * Lucien already has a bag full of issues that it isn't going to help, not that I'm sympathetic to a kiddie-killer. As I said in the KotoR thread though, I was surprised by how aggressively the Jedi Council reacted to the information about the killing of the padawans. I expected some representatives to go to the Draay compound and demand answers from the Covenant and TALK about what happened, not go right into battle, lightsabers blazing. * My own theory is the Jedi have known there was something dodgy about the Draay estate for a while, equally the murder of the Padawans but they couldn't prove it- once they have tangible proof though.... The author came into the thread and said that we should consider that Xamar knew about the Sith artifacts and maybe about some other things that we don't know yet. Still, I would have thought that only the five Masters did anything evil (killing the Padawans), and two of them were dead and one was confessing. So they were really only going in for Lucien and Q'inala. * But if they are protected by deluded followers, the show of force is needed in order to quell their fighting. Even though there were a lot of covenant people, I thought the rest were like Celeste, honestly trying to be vigilant to be sure the Sith didn't return, but basically good Jedi. I guess I was wrong about that. * Not necessarily, the Covenant may well have taken advantage of some very real fears. It seemed so chilling, jarring, and confusing to see Jedi fighting Jedi when I was expecting a Jedi delegation seeking answers and possibly planning to discipline or arrest the two Covenant members. I didn't think the other covenant members were guilty or even that they knew about what the five Masters had done to their apprentices. * The problem with your proposal is it forgets that the Covenant is operating in a way akin to a cult and cults are not reasonable, prone to violent response on a hair trigger. Now if the Jedi already knew about Haazen, then I could have understood why they arrived as they did. But the Haazen reveal came later. * You have Jedi killing padawans, hoarding Sith artifacts and corrupting other Jedi with their lies - that's a substantive charge list on its own. True, but with the shorter style, I think it tends to make it more pronounced that there isn't room for everyone. * Yep, but with enough issues that isn't as big a problem as it could be. * It's a good way of keeping informed, I did the same on LOTF and, by all accounts, that sounds to have been the best option! I have started to read that first Corscant Nights book. ( I did buy this one.) So far though, I've been disappointed. I can't say that I have "connected" with any of the characters yet. The only one that I felt anything for was that Piell, I think his name was who got killed fairly early in the book, when I just thought he was going to get away. * I think it depends on how you view it: A: It's a Dark Times book, nothing major will change and everyone will die so why bother? * Or: B: It's a tale of how good survives even when evil is not only ascendant but triumphant. Somehow, the book doesn't seem like SW and I'm not sure why. It just seems more like a book that could take place in any universe in the seedy parts of town with the dregs of the galaxy. * That seedy feel is one of the things that made SW a success though, it was unique and to date, no other story has really captured that in the same way. The Jedi haven't been able to use their Force skills all that much because they don't want to get caught. Maybe that's part of why it doesn't seem all that "Star Warsy". * You need Jedi for a story to qualify as SW? I'm hoping that as I get to know the characters better and as the plot picks up a bit, that I'll like it better. Right now, it's kind of "meh". I keep finding my mind wandering as I'm reading it and that's NEVER a good sign. * For me, it's a continuation of a neat little sub-set of books starting with Shadow Hunter, continued into Medstar and now picked up in Corusant Nights. Reaves tends to focus on characters, so it is a different style to the standard EU fare. * Put it this way: I've book 2 and am reluctant to plough through it as I inevitably will because then I've got to wait for the next one, the book also deals with a major act of the EU that features in HoT. JB -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 8/31 5:07pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	Jedi Ben : Lucien already has a bag full of issues that it isn't going to help, not that I'm sympathetic to a kiddie-killer.* I'm not at all sympathetic to the child-killer either. You're right that he has a lot of issues even before he thinks about the fact that he was taught by a Sith. His mother didn't seem to have much time for him and preferred others to him. He lost his father early on. He seems to have inadequacy issues. Plus all of the Covenant mess. And he caused a lot of his own problems with the Covenant and with killing the Padawans. Getting back to his father for a minute, I think it's possible that Haazen may have killed Lucien's father...OR maybe Lucien's father is a SIth too, hiding out somewhere, and Haazen answers to HIM. * My own theory is the Jedi have known there was something dodgy about the Draay estate for a while, equally the murder of the Padawans but they couldn't prove it- once they have tangible proof though.... You're probably right. Plus the fact that the Covenant is a cult, and the Masters were protected by "deluded followers". So I guess it wasn't the overkill that it seemed to be when I read the issue. * Not necessarily, the Covenant may well have taken advantage of some very real fears. That's what I hope, because I'd hate to think they were all evil. It was also shocking to see Karath's forces fire on both Jedi and Covenant members alike. So is Karath under Haazen's thumb too? I guess I'm just not very good at 'reading' comics. * It's a good way of keeping informed, I did the same on LOTF and, by all accounts, that sounds to have been the best option! Yes! * I think it depends on how you view it: A: It's a Dark Times book, nothing major will change and everyone will die so why bother? * Or: B: It's a tale of how good survives even when evil is not only ascendant but triumphant. Well, maybe I viewed it as point A because we did see that Jedi die right near the beginning, and things don't look very good for others either. However, I'm about halfway through the book now, and it IS much better. At first it seemed like more of the same dark and depressing stuff that we got in DN and LotF. * That seedy feel is one of the things that made SW a success though, it was unique and to date, no other story has really captured that in the same way. Well, we didn't spend too much time in the "seedy" parts of Tatooine though. The characters moved from setting to setting. With Jedi Twilight, the characters (at least so far) don't leave the seedy parts of Coruscant. I think that makes the difference. The setting is much more static. * You need Jedi for a story to qualify as SW? I actually think I do. The Jedi and the Force are what make Star Wars unique. Otherwise, with some minor changes, they could be set in many other universes. I did like the X-wing books, but I really felt that they could have taken place in almost any universe involving some kind of small fighter. Change the names of the characters and the locations, and the stories could have been told in a lot of different universes because the X-wing books didn't include Jedi or the Force. * For me, it's a continuation of a neat little sub-set of books starting with Shadow Hunter, continued into Medstar and now picked up in Corusant Nights. Reaves tends to focus on characters, so it is a different style to the standard EU fare. I didn't read any of those other books. Maybe that's why I had more difficulty with the characters at first. I wasn't familiar with any of them. I actually prefer a focs on the characters. the book also deals with a major act of the EU that features in HoT. What is that?
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 9/1 1:34pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	COW, I'm not at all sympathetic to the child-killer either. You're right that he has a lot of issues even before he thinks about the fact that he was taught by a Sith. His mother didn't seem to have much time for him and preferred others to him. He lost his father early on. He seems to have inadequacy issues. Plus all of the Covenant mess. And he caused a lot of his own problems with the Covenant and with killing the Padawans. * Yup, Lucian is one of those people who have not only not heard the phrase: When in a hole, stop digging, but who gets a JCB instead. Getting back to his father for a minute, I think it's possible that Haazen may have killed Lucien's father...OR maybe Lucien's father is a SIth too, hiding out somewhere, and Haazen answers to HIM. * A fan theory is Haazen did indeed kill his father ie: "You said you knew what happened to my father!" "I did - I killed him!" You're probably right. Plus the fact that the Covenant is a cult, and the Masters were protected by "deluded followers". So I guess it wasn't the overkill that it seemed to be when I read the issue. * The amount of force may have been to prevent loss of life ie. You've no chance so surrender now. It was also shocking to see Karath's forces fire on both Jedi and Covenant members alike. So is Karath under Haazen's thumb too? * Quite possibly, but it looks more like the ships were slaved to Haazen's control. I guess I'm just not very good at 'reading' comics. * It's a skill that must be practiced like any other....frequently! Well, maybe I viewed it as point A because we did see that Jedi die right near the beginning, and things don't look very good for others either. * I'm afraid I have little time for the postmodern position A, for to adopt such a position renders all stories meaningless. At least, to me. However, I'm about halfway through the book now, and it IS much better. At first it seemed like more of the same dark and depressing stuff that we got in DN and LotF. * I'd have to dispute that, it's certainly dark, but it has far more reason to be than DN/LOTF yet is more hopeful than those two. Well, we didn't spend too much time in the "seedy" parts of Tatooine though. The characters moved from setting to setting. With Jedi Twilight, the characters (at least so far) don't leave the seedy parts of Coruscant. I think that makes the difference. The setting is much more static. * Yeah, but that's also because it's channelling noir detective novels. I actually think I do. The Jedi and the Force are what make Star Wars unique. Otherwise, with some minor changes, they could be set in many other universes. * Yet is that not the same narrow focus that has been adopted by Dr on the late post-ROTJ Eu to its detriment? I did like the X-wing books, but I really felt that they could have taken place in almost any universe involving some kind of small fighter. Change the names of the characters and the locations, and the stories could have been told in a lot of different universes because the X-wing books didn't include Jedi or the Force. * No other universe has X-Wings and Star Destroyers, or the idea, never mind execution of, that a squadron of fighters can destroy a capital ship! I didn't read any of those other books. Maybe that's why I had more difficulty with the characters at first. I wasn't familiar with any of them. I actually prefer a focs on the characters. * I can recommend the other 3 books to you if you find CN1 to you liking, much to your surprise. the book also deals with a major act of the EU that features in HoT. What is that? * The destruction of Caamas. JB -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 9/1 2:03pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0 - Date Edited: 9/1 2:09pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Rouge77
	Double post. -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker
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Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 9/1 2:09pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	ChildOfWinds posted: Do you mean to say that they're saying that Jacen had to die but they're not giving a reason why? That's ridiculous. Jacen DIDN'T need to die. There were many other (and better!) directions that the story could have gone in where Jacen didn't need to be killed off. I couldn't find it from TOS, so here it is the same copied on a blog. Rostoni calls Jacen's death "inevitable", claims he couldn't be talked to by Jaina - even when he tried to talk to Jaina, who didn't want to talk to him - and that Caedus was killed in the last book; that was as late as we could put it. We had him start the fall in the first book so we would have time to really experience his journey, with Sacrifice being the point of no return. Was he redeemed? You'll have to draw your own conclusions So she basically claims that Jacen had to die, that there was no other option, but doesn't give reason why. And the thing about redemption is like a nasty joke: Buy a series consisting of 9 books and in the end they claim that it's your's, the reader's, responsibility to decide what is the final fate of the nominal main character. It might be ok if this would be some nouveau roman, a masterpiece of modernist fiction, but this is tie-in fiction, where one should not find such high-brow cop-outs. In a tie-in this kind of ending is cheating, betraying the reader. The whole thing irritates me, like the claim that Han and Leia "grieved quite a bit" for Jacen in LotF. I can't think of a single case where this would have happened. In fact, they were very far from grieving in much of LotF. I just have to think that it was beyond the capabilities of the authors to write any convincing emotions or emotional scenes for these two characters. -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker
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Master_Keralys Title: Lit Mod of Being Away Because He's Sick Right Now Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 9/1 3:19pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	There's plenty of grieving, actually, if you look for not just, "Oh, I am so sad that my son has become a monster." There's denial, anger, all the classical symptoms of grief as expressed about a person who is cutting themselves off by doing terrible things (rather than just having died). By the time Jacen actually died, they were essentially resigned, though still struggling with bouts of anger. I actually thought that Han and Leia's reactions throughout the series made a lot of sense. CoW, RK, regarding the quality of the book Invincible. This is just a point for clarification: did you think it badly written or did you dislike the story? Or was it some mix of both? I thought it was actually a very well written book, though there were a few points I was fairly disappointed with. (I enjoyed a lot of it quite a bit, actually, but we have differing tastes, which is cool.) The Crystal Star, on the other hand, was simply not well written in my opinion, as well as being badly plotted and badly executed. How did it break down for you? -----signature----- God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself. The craziest story ever told. The truest.
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Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 9/1 4:02pm Subject: RE: SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0
	Master_Keralys posted: There's plenty of grieving, actually, if you look for not just, "Oh, I am so sad that my son has become a monster." There's denial, anger, all the classical symptoms of grief as expressed about a person who is cutting themselves off by doing terrible things (rather than just having died). By the time Jacen actually died, they were essentially resigned, though still struggling with bouts of anger. I actually thought that Han and Leia's reactions throughout the series made a lot of sense. Perhaps, but in my opinion it's just bad writing after Betrayal when it comes to Leia&Han in LotF. It's a huge tragedy, they lose their only surviving son, they support killing him, and they should in my opinion be emotional wrecks, instead of being so... normal. After all, this isn't supposed to be a realistic novel, but a rollercoaster of a story in a grand scale. I would have expected their reactions been more dramatic. Instead they were just going through their usual motions for long durations. -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker
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