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Topic:
The official EUC 'Invincible' discussion thread - SPOILERS INSIDE, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
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adaml83
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
5/21 3:35pm
Subject:
RE: The official EUC 'Invincible' discussion thread - SPOILERS INSIDE, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
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People are upset by the book? Must be in one of the Lit threads.
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Adaml83-Wraith XO, Twin Suns Lead, Wraith 5
Antilles/Celchu '08 - The only choice with the galaxy on the line
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canadianjedimama
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
5/21 9:42pm
Subject:
RE: The official EUC 'Invincible' discussion thread - SPOILERS INSIDE, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
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adaml83 posted:
People are upset by the book? Must be in one of the Lit threads.
Dude, you have no idea.... 
But as for Caedus being redeemed.....I'm not sure. When Jacen backs away from Jaina the final time before she kills him Denning does make a reference to him backing away into the light from the incinerator. Whether this is just literal or literal and metaphysical I really don't know.
But the fact that Jaina can feel the twin bond again as she sits there cradling his corpse kinda lead me to believe yeah, maybe he did come back.
After all, his last act could be construed as a selfless one. Is that enough for redemption from Chaos?
I'd really love to know what happened to his body. Did it eventually fade away or did they burn it on pyre like Anakin's? Otherwise, how can I be sure 100% that he's dead? Kyle Katarn took a lightsabre to the chest and lived to tell about it.
Katarn's god-like power not withstanding. 
CJM
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Lucky member of the Jagateers, my e-sister's of Jag-love!  "I like Princess Leia, but that's different Star Wars." Baby Girl on CW Proud co-corrupter of Flowerlady to Twilight...  I Wobbler... 
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JEDI_TEEGIRLOO
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/22 10:23am
Subject:
RE: The official EUC 'Invincible' discussion thread - SPOILERS INSIDE, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
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I think they will probably say he was redeemed but i really dont think so. I think he was still being selfish in his way. To me it was no different than why he originally wanted for the galaxy and for Allana. It was her safety but he was still not thinking really of Allana but his mission. He did love her but i get tired of thinking that a redemption is always a given for Skywalkers or Solo's. I still think that if Jaina would have listened to him instead of killing him, he would have still have been a Sith.
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~Darth Mystique~Dark Lady of the Sith~/Matriarch of the Witches of Dathomir
"The Darkside is like a drug that i just cant get enough of."
~Mesh'la Par'jila ~ Prudii Verd - "Oya Manda! "
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Jedi Ben
Registered:
Jul '99
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Date Posted:
5/22 1:48pm
Subject:
RE: The official EUC 'Invincible' discussion thread - SPOILERS INSIDE, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
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Just to second CJM: Yep, in Lit there is a raging cauldron of a thread entitled....well you can guess, can't you? 
Still, couple of comments from that thread, which I'd be curious to see what those who have read the book make of:
* On Luke:
Has anyone considered that to deal with galactic problems like an interstellar war you have to be quite cold about it? Earlier in this series people were damning Luke for caring about Ben's welfare over killing Jacen, now he's sorting the galaxy out he's damned for not being emotive enough about it? If the realism agenda is to go to its logical conclusion, then being a commander in war does require a measure of detachment. This was Ackbar's point in DW, it's terrible about the refugees but if we don't defeat the Vong they're dead anyway and it was only when the NR actually starting fighting a war with all the viciousness it entails that they turned the tide against the Vong. (Yes, you can say that some of this was down to WJW's fix it remit too.)
There are times when Luke has made decisive decisions which meant death: He deestroyed the Death Star, he was perfectly willing to distract the Emperor and Vader for the Alliance to destroy DS2 with him on if need be, he turned Palpatine's Force Storm against him, destroyed the Sun Crusher which took the Death Star Prototype with it, didn't see anything wrong with sabotaging or later destroying Centrepoint, executed Shimmraa which broke the fighting spirit of the Vong. It may well be Invinvible takes it to a new level but if you've been demanding Luke acts to deal with all the chaos then it's a bit off to complain about it when he does.
* Inevitably a question was raised over whether or not the Legacy comics constitute a limitation on DR....
* On DR and limits:
It's strange but give DR a wide-open canvas and they go right off the rails, in contrast their best work has been done in those areas where they face significant limitations. In 2001 the same company produced both SBS, a book that showcased every aspect of NJO from the wonderful to the appalling and COD, arguably one of the best PT books going. Fans who have despaired of their late era EU work still remain interested by the other products like the upcoming Corusant Nights novels. So, while I don't see an 86 year gap as being insignificant nor a real barrier, I don't mind DR being limited in such a way either given how they seem to work much better under them.
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Castle: So they can't walk away. So they can't
profit from the pain they've caused.....
Howe: And no second chances...
Castle: I don't do redemption.
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THE_PIED_PIPER
Title: Chapter Rep
Knoxville, TN
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
5/22 2:54pm
Subject:
RE: The official EUC 'Invincible' discussion thread - SPOILERS INSIDE, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
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 I'll have review coming up! I'm so so glad to see this thread!
~Piper 
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"A little fight in you...I like that." "Then you're going to love me." - The Joker and Batman "You're the Yen to my Yang." - My husband Roan Fel's badassery knows no bounds!
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adaml83
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
5/22 8:27pm
Subject:
RE: The official EUC 'Invincible' discussion thread - SPOILERS INSIDE, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
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Heh, makes me glad that there's this thread here, it's a lot more relaxed.
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Adaml83-Wraith XO, Twin Suns Lead, Wraith 5
Antilles/Celchu '08 - The only choice with the galaxy on the line
Rakish Rebel Scum Mk 2-10th SFD
Sir Robin and the Rakish Rebel Scum-5th SFD
You can Kiss My Wookie Squad-3rd SFD
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Cobranaconda
Title: Ex-FF-UK: South CR
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
5/23 7:42am
Subject:
RE: The official EUC 'Invincible' discussion thread - SPOILERS INSIDE, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
- Date Edited:
5/23 7:44am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Cobranaconda
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I think Crystal Star has been surpassed as the worst book in the EU.
I didn't expect much, it is Denning, after all, but this was just... garbage. The only part I thought was minorly interesting was the "oh noes child seduction!" by Tahiri. Everything else just seemed badly glued together and pointless. Plus, the wrap up was miniscule. As if Jag on Moff Council wasn't enough, then you get Daala as CoS and Allana being adopted within, what, two pages of each other? It just seems like it was rushed, poorly planned and executed.
And here I thought Del Rey would never surpass Dark Nest for sheer rubbish. Turns out they can surpass Bantam too.
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Sinrebirth
Title: EU Senate Chancellor
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
5/23 10:12am
Subject:
RE: The official EUC 'Invincible' discussion thread - SPOILERS INSIDE, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
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Yay for positivity! 
I enjoyed the book incredibly, I must say. Caedus' death/redemption made you think, and at the end of the day he did save his lover and daughter. Isolder's and Shevu's death were well done, I believe, especially as Jacen remains unhappy about killing Isolder.
I quite like how the war simply ended with Caedus dead. It was swinging every direction possible with the Remnant in the game, and then Jacen goes, the Moff Council joins the Jedi, and the story ends. In a way, it's abrupt, yes, but I enjoyed that, at the end of the day, this war was unnecessary. It shouldn't have lasted even a year, without Niathal, Jacen, Gejjen, Sal-Solo and Lumiya pulling strings. It would have ended in Betrayal, or Tempest, without Lumiya, for example.
Overall, I was impressed.
And, I'm curious to see what Zekk will become. Ship is missing, and Zekk had a severe problem with Darth Vectivus' asteroid...
Even more amusing, is, at last, the Rule of Two Sith have been completely defeated, and Star Wars is not over! That's a pleasant twist on everything we could have predicted a few years ago.
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Sey's Sinre  The Missing Chapters of LotF: Invincible http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=28933751&brd=10477&replies=10 Chapter 2.5 is up now! Featuring Wedge, Dician, Niathal, Daala, Valin and Syal!
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JEDI_TEEGIRLOO
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/23 10:16am
Subject:
RE: The official EUC 'Invincible' discussion thread - SPOILERS INSIDE, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
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With the Remnant apart of the GA now i wonder if it is to show a a link to the future Imperial Knights.
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"The Darkside is like a drug that i just cant get enough of."
~Mesh'la Par'jila ~ Prudii Verd - "Oya Manda! "
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s65horsey
Title: EUC Manager
SWC Lil' Sis
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
5/23 10:24am
Subject:
RE: The official EUC 'Invincible' discussion thread - SPOILERS INSIDE, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
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Sinrebirth posted:
I enjoyed the book incredibly, I must say. Caedus' death/redemption made you think, and at the end of the day he did save his lover and daughter. Isolder's and Shevu's death were well done, I believe, especially as Jacen remains unhappy about killing Isolder.
This part is actually something I didn't like. I wanted Jacen to just be this bad guy with a no redemption scenario. The way it was written, he was partly redeemed which puts Jaina in the bad guy spot? I'm not liking the gray area at all. The entire book led up to Jacen being this awful Sith Lord who needed to be destroyed and then at the end backed off. I guess it links too much with Anakin Skywalker for my liking. I wanted this to be different. Especially after things like Isolder's death, Jacen is just a despicable character and now with one fleeting thought of his, I can't completely hate him.
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Sexy Sinre's Sey "Excellence, did you forget your 3P0 unit when you left Lit for Comms?" - dp4m "Me give up Cade's chappless butt? Only when they pry it from cold, dead hands. Wait, that didn't sound right. . . . " - John O
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Sinrebirth
Title: EU Senate Chancellor
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
5/23 10:29am
Subject:
RE: The official EUC 'Invincible' discussion thread - SPOILERS INSIDE, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
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s65horsey posted:
Sinrebirth posted:
I enjoyed the book incredibly, I must say. Caedus' death/redemption made you think, and at the end of the day he did save his lover and daughter. Isolder's and Shevu's death were well done, I believe, especially as Jacen remains unhappy about killing Isolder.
This part is actually something I didn't like. I wanted Jacen to just be this bad guy with a no redemption scenario. The way it was written, he was partly redeemed which puts Jaina in the bad guy spot? I'm not liking the gray area at all. The entire book led up to Jacen being this awful Sith Lord who needed to be destroyed and then at the end backed off. I guess it links too much with Anakin Skywalker for my liking. I wanted this to be different. Especially after things like Isolder's death, Jacen is just a despicable character and now with one fleeting thought of his, I can't completely hate him.
Well, I supported Jacen bar his insanity, so shrug.
He remains a shallow, selfish man who betrayed his own principles in the end - he saved his daughter when he should, by his own principles, have wiped out the Hapan Royal Family and won. The only reason he didn't was because he didn't kill his daughter. It's the same with Vader, to a degee, but Jacen did not repent in his last seconds.
We all know Caedus, in a snap of a finger, would have turned on Jaina if she hadn't killed him.
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Sey's Sinre The Missing Chapters of LotF: Invincible http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=28933751&brd=10477&replies=10 Chapter 2.5 is up now! Featuring Wedge, Dician, Niathal, Daala, Valin and Syal!
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JEDI_TEEGIRLOO
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/23 10:40am
Subject:
RE: The official EUC 'Invincible' discussion thread - SPOILERS INSIDE, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
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Im with you Sey, i wanted to hate Jacen completely but that last second is still up in the air. I think he should not be redeemed because he was only thinking of his own accord even if it meant saving Allana.
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~Darth Mystique~Dark Lady of the Sith~/Matriarch of the Witches of Dathomir
"The Darkside is like a drug that i just cant get enough of."
~Mesh'la Par'jila ~ Prudii Verd - "Oya Manda! "
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s65horsey
Title: EUC Manager
SWC Lil' Sis
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
5/23 10:47am
Subject:
RE: The official EUC 'Invincible' discussion thread - SPOILERS INSIDE, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
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But was he only thinking of his own accord? Was his warning just because he didn't want to lose Allana? If this is the case, then there is no redemption and I can be a little happier.
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Sexy Sinre's Sey "Excellence, did you forget your 3P0 unit when you left Lit for Comms?" - dp4m "Me give up Cade's chappless butt? Only when they pry it from cold, dead hands. Wait, that didn't sound right. . . . " - John O
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JEDI_TEEGIRLOO
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/23 11:08am
Subject:
RE: The official EUC 'Invincible' discussion thread - SPOILERS INSIDE, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
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Thats the way i read it. I do not think he truly changed.
-----signature-----
~Darth Mystique~Dark Lady of the Sith~/Matriarch of the Witches of Dathomir
"The Darkside is like a drug that i just cant get enough of."
~Mesh'la Par'jila ~ Prudii Verd - "Oya Manda! "
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Sinrebirth
Title: EU Senate Chancellor
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
5/24 3:51am
Subject:
RE: The official EUC 'Invincible' discussion thread - SPOILERS INSIDE, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
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You could say that Jacen constantly regretted killing Nelani, Alyn, Mara and Tebut. But he never was redeemed because he continued. It's the same with Allana at the end of Invincible. But, with the same gymnastics of logic, in none of those situations did he put his life before those individuals, and die for them.
Which is somewhat similar to what Vader did - he knew he couldn't kill Sidious and escape unharmed, and so sacrificed his life for Luke's. I suppose.
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Sey's Sinre The Missing Chapters of LotF: Invincible http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=28933751&brd=10477&replies=10 Chapter 2.5 is up now! Featuring Wedge, Dician, Niathal, Daala, Valin and Syal!
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