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Topic:
The Conference Room (A Jaina and Jag Discussion Thread) *INVINCIBLE SPOILERS!!!*
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brodiew
Registered:
Oct '05
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Date Posted:
12/31/07 1:07pm
Subject:
RE: The Conference Room (A Jaina and Jag Discussion Thread) *FURY and REVELATION SPOILERS!!!*
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I just started writing and hit a character roadblock immediately. I'm not sure if it has been discussed here before, but where is Jag's passion. I've often agreed with his characterization as a "stuffed shirt". As a man raised in a very strict society with honor, duty, and sacrifice as a way of life, I imagine that passion or individuality was driven out of him.
When writing him, I imagine him much like many military commanders: Rough, gruff, projecting invulnerability and hard edged stoicism. But, like Jean Luc Picard, there is a human side; a side that only comes out in private, with those closest to him. Picard endured much, like Jag, but his character seems fuller.
Granted, Jag is a supporting character, with very limited screen time, but profic authors seem determined to keep him maligned and hard edged.
Perhaps, our challenge should focus on bringing out Jag's humanity. Some below the surface, that we don't ever see in profic. Throw in Jaina as a catalyst and see what happens. It doesn't even have to be romantic per se, but real.
Does that make sense?
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TKeira_Lea
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
12/31/07 2:32pm
Subject:
RE: The Conference Room (A Jaina and Jag Discussion Thread) *FURY and REVELATION SPOILERS!!!*
- Date Edited:
12/31/07 3:34pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
TKeira_Lea
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brodiew posted:
I just started writing and hit a character roadblock immediately. I'm not sure if it has been discussed here before, but where is Jag's passion. I've often agreed with his characterization as a "stuffed shirt". As a man raised in a very strict society with honor, duty, and sacrifice as a way of life, I imagine that passion or individuality was driven out of him.
People read characters different ways. Personally I think he's got lots of passion.
Take the definition of the word (as pulled off dictionary.com): passion -
1. any powerful or compelling emotion or feeling, as love or hate.
He's proven that he's capable of love - toward Jaina. In fact we know he defied his father to stay in the Known Regions for the woman he loved.
2. strong amorous feeling or desire; love; ardor.
To quote Jag himself - "I'm here. And I'm not going anywhere, Jaina. Not until you wake up. You know what that means, don't you? It means that Twin Suns Squadron is unattended. And we can't have that, can we? I love you, Jaina. Please come back to me." ~ Force Heretic
Need I say more?
3. strong sexual desire; lust.
Courtesy of Aaron Allston's Inferno -
Jaina: "...I'd bet my shirt that Alema is here."
Jag: "I accept!"
He's lusting. If not he's just plain funny. 
4. an instance or experience of strong love or sexual desire.
Love strong enough to put his life up for Jaina, at Borleias. Risked entechment for Jaina's sake at Bakura
5. a person toward whom one feels strong love or sexual desire.
Ylesia? Footrubs 
6. a strong or extravagant fondness, enthusiasm, or desire for anything: a passion for music.
"I am not loyal to the Chiss because my parents were accepted by them, or because I have grown up among them. I'm loyal because they embody traits I admire and respect; they make those traits part of the very fiber of our society. Traits such as strength in the face of aggression, such as acknowledgment of duty before self-interest. The Chiss, however, are not the only people with admirable traits, not the only ones who deserve to survive the Yuuzhan Vong, and not the only ones I identify with. Not anymore." ~ Jag to Shawnkyr
7. the object of such a fondness or desire: Accuracy became a passion with him.
Red Sky, Blue Flame probably speaks best that flying was one of his passions.
8. an outburst of strong emotion or feeling: He suddenly broke into a passion of bitter words.
He definitely had strong feelings about Jaina and the Killiks in the Dark Nest trilogy.
9. violent anger.
We've seen him angry. The first time he shows up in Dark Tide he's pretty angry with the politicians. Violent angry, that might show he's out of control, which isn't something we're likely to see often. If he were to be violently angry I personally wouldn't be surprised. I'm not sure J/J fans would be either. Darth_Lex just posted a vignette in which Jag gets violently angry and it was pretty well received as reflecting a very canon feel to the character.
posted:
When writing him, I imagine him much like many military commanders: Rough, gruff, projecting invulnerability and hard edged stoicism. But, like Jean Luc Picard, there is a human side; a side that only comes out in private, with those closest to him. Picard endured much, like Jag, but his character seems fuller.
Jag wants people to see the military man. There are many instances in canon where he's let down his guard and which, to me, make him seem full. He's shown a humorous side and even vulnerability. How about the conference room scene in Rebel Dream or the picnic scene in Rebel Stand? Or his rare moment of slouching before Leia in Fury?
Like you've said, how much time is there to show the fullness to a character in profic? How do we know Han is a softy? Because he came back to save Luke in ANH. Or made sure Leia got off Hoth. On one level those are hard edged acts but underneath them is the truth of who Han is. These profic authors are not writing flat characters; they are layers to them all.
Jag was well received after Fury but it's not like Allston wrote a different Jag this time. He's the same character he's written in earlier books, with a bit more baggage of course.
posted:
Granted, Jag is a supporting character, with very limited screen time, but profic authors seem determined to keep him maligned and hard edged.
I'll respectfully disagree with you here. I think Jag's been portrayed as funny, smart, loving and full of passion throughout canon. I've loved his character from the moment he walked past all the politicians to meet Jaina, then told them all off to boot. Thank you, Mr. Stackpole. And what girl wouldn't want to screw up, get rescued by a knight-in-shining-clawcraft, then get saved from the ramifications of her commanding officer after getting the breath kissed out of her? Thank you, Mr. Allston.
I'll stop there because I could go on and on. Yeah, Jag's romantic enough for me. He's got just enough fluff beneath that tough exterior.
posted:
Perhaps, our challenge should focus on bringing out Jag's humanity. Some below the surface, that we don't ever see in profic. Throw in Jaina as a catalyst and see what happens. It doesn't even have to be romantic per se, but real.
Does that make sense?
Really I think J/Jers have already found Jag's humanity. As far as challenges go, and this is just based on my experience running them with the Index, we don't get people just coming in to write Jag better. Usually the entrants are Jaina/Jag shippers who want to see that outcome and see how he fits very well with her character, and also how she brings out the best in him.
I'm not discounting your suggestion but rather looking at the audience we tend to see writing and the readers want challenges that play up J/J. Not that I'm saying we can't explore expanding our purpose, but that's really our mandate as the J/J Index. If people would like to see if expanded, Nat and BigFatty and myself are always willing to listen.
Truthfully I think a Jag centered challenge like that would be better served for a Jag Fel-centered index, which is geared toward building up his character. If I'm not mistaken there is one of those.
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NYCitygurl
Title: Railroad Baroness of SFFBC, C&G, and NSWFF
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
12/31/07 2:47pm
Subject:
RE: The Conference Room (A Jaina and Jag Discussion Thread) *FURY and REVELATION SPOILERS!!!*
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Plus, there's always not even taking Jag by the canon and writing him the way we wish he was being written (guilty here).
TKL provided some good examples (and made me want to reread the books again  ). IMO he's just an underdeveloped character who, because of the way the profic authors wanted to write Jaina's story, got shunted off to the side and had a lot of his potential mistreated.
Like in Fury when Wedge says that he's amazed by Jag and such, it's obvious that after the war ended the two of them had little or no relationship. They could have been awesome together, but since the authors wanted to split Jaina and Jag up, they sent Jag back to the Unknown Regions and kept him there. And Kyp, too; they seemed like they could become friends, but even in the NJO after Allston's books their relationship was pretty much over.
And I would just like to add that, while I've never read any of the comics about Soontir, Jag's parents letting him go off to find Alema and deciding to stay with the Chiss and never see him again seems REALLY cold.
To recap: the profic authors screwed it up, fanfic authors do it better
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brodiew
Registered:
Oct '05
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Date Posted:
12/31/07 2:52pm
Subject:
RE: The Conference Room (A Jaina and Jag Discussion Thread) *FURY and REVELATION SPOILERS!!!*
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TKeira_Lea,
Thank you for giving me such a detailed and well thought out response. It is quite obvious that I don't this character as well as some. I have to admit, your pull quotes were well payed as well as your exposition on each defiition of the word passion. I want to write a good Jag, but I have only a casual interest. I think I have the gist of him, but, not the detailed recollections of his past appearances. There was a picnic? :-)
Thank you again.
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NYCitygurl
Title: Railroad Baroness of SFFBC, C&G, and NSWFF
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
12/31/07 3:03pm
Subject:
RE: The Conference Room (A Jaina and Jag Discussion Thread) *FURY and REVELATION SPOILERS!!!*
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Rooftop of a Boreleas complex in Rebel Stand
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brodiew
Registered:
Oct '05
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Date Posted:
12/31/07 3:04pm
Subject:
RE: The Conference Room (A Jaina and Jag Discussion Thread) *FURY and REVELATION SPOILERS!!!*
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It was a small joke, Nat, but I really do forget some of the details of the NJO and most of DNT.
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NYCitygurl
Title: Railroad Baroness of SFFBC, C&G, and NSWFF
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
12/31/07 3:10pm
Subject:
RE: The Conference Room (A Jaina and Jag Discussion Thread) *FURY and REVELATION SPOILERS!!!*
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My sarcasm/joke detector is broken
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Myriad_Daydreams
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
12/31/07 3:27pm
Subject:
RE: The Conference Room (A Jaina and Jag Discussion Thread) *FURY and REVELATION SPOILERS!!!*
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TKeira_Lea posted:
3. strong sexual desire; lust.
Courtesy of Aaron Allston's Inferno -
Jaina: "...I'd bet my shirt that Alema is here."
Jag: "I accept!"
He's lusting. If not he's just plain funny.
 That's cute Great line 
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And if the answer is no / Can I change your mind? Bring on the drabbles: http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/29099025/p1/?12
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TKeira_Lea
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
12/31/07 3:30pm
Subject:
RE: The Conference Room (A Jaina and Jag Discussion Thread) *FURY and REVELATION SPOILERS!!!*
- Date Edited:
12/31/07 3:33pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
TKeira_Lea
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NYCitygurl posted:
My sarcasm/joke detector is broken
brodiew posted:
There was a picnic?
I'd say it was one of my favorites of Jag in canon. Kyp is great in the scene too. Honestly the way my memory is these days I'm surprised I remembered as much as I did. I generally can't remember that much from my own stories
brodiew posted:
It is quite obvious that I don't this character as well as some.
Really if you take Jag from Inferno and Fury you're going to get a good snapshot of who he is. Allston has probably given Jag more page time than any profic writer and Stackpole, who shares the love of the fighter pilot characters, really created the character. They seem to work on the same wavelength. To top that off, Denning in his evil authorness added all the baggage we see between J/J at this point. They're both pretty clever with POV and hiding the ball to some degree, but they both clearly enjoy the character.
On the general topic of character development, I've just reread Starfighters of Adumar, not of course a Jag or even Jaina related book, but beyond the snorting out loud dialogue Allston covered some pretty deep themes amidst his humor and pilot antics. He's a talented author because he leaves some interpretation to the reader. If you just want to laugh at his writing, I think he's fine with that. But if you want to read about what it means to be a hero and a leader then he's written that too.
My long way around to my point is - Wedge in SoA was lterally on the verge of losing everything. But instead he chose to grab the love of Iella and risk his entire career to honor his personal code of honor. I'm thinking that Jag doesn't fall far from the Antilles tree, especially since Allston obviously has a third of the say in his destiny at this juncture.
Without screaming it out loud, Allston has given us J/J in Fury. Jaina's medbunk side chat with Jag basically boiled down to Jag saying - I know you can't do this until after you deal with Jacen, but is there a future for us? Jaina, in admitting she wanted him to stay, told Jag yes. There is no reason for Jag to continue fighting with the Jedi now that his hunt for Alema is over, unless he's practically an honorary Jedi like Han.
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NYCitygurl
Title: Railroad Baroness of SFFBC, C&G, and NSWFF
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Jul '02
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Date Posted:
12/31/07 3:44pm
Subject:
RE: The Conference Room (A Jaina and Jag Discussion Thread) *FURY and REVELATION SPOILERS!!!*
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I agree; Allston is really one of the best things, if not the best, to happen to the EU. He's probably my favorite SW author for exactly the reasons you said.
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Darkwriter
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
12/31/07 4:03pm
Subject:
RE: The Conference Room (A Jaina and Jag Discussion Thread) *FURY and REVELATION SPOILERS!!!*
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Here are some ways I look at Jag's character:
1. Basically, he's Mr. Rochester in Jane Eyre. Only hot. And he probably wouldn't marry Jaina while still married to some other crazy chick.
Wait. Add that to my plot bunnies: Jane Eyre parody where Jag=Mr. Rochester and Jaina=Jane Eyre.
2. Think about that strict military discipline, how he lost two brothers and a sister because of it, and how it must have been to grow up in that house. Or estate. His family lives on an estate. They're Corellian, like the Solos, but filthy rich. All five of those kids (plus Cem?) have probably been through the Chiss academy. But family is obviously very important to Jag.
Another way of thinking of it is like this: Jag had the kind of childhood Jaina always wanted. Jaina has the parents Jag most likely years for, the kind that go out of their way to make sure you're safe. Basically, if you think about Jag's childhood, you can probably clue into a lot about his characterization.
3. In Force Heretic Jag is thinking about the Chiss and his duty, and how odd it is that he's involved with Jaina. He compares Jaina to a lose canon, but he realizes that's WHY he loves her...because it's natural for her to feel openly passionate. He admires her for that. Also, remember that in Dark Journey, when Jag just starts chasing Jaina, what makes her interesting to him is the fact that she's ALWAYS arguing with him.
4. I must say, I love Angry Jag. Angry Jag makes me wet my pants. I hope that's not to visual for y'all.
5. Most importantly, he's dedicated. It's like in TUF:
JAINA: but then you're seeing the object on a pedastal (refering to Kyp). You're worshipping the idea.
JACEN: You mean the way Jag worships you?
He also almost went after her in that book, risking life and limb, I must add. However, he still knows when it's time to do his job, and trust Jaina to do hers.
Okay. I'm going rewind a lot here. Sorry.
Star_writer24: REALLY? Sure! I'll go dig it up, and send it to you via PM. I'm also sending you the some parts with Jacen/Jaina interaction, so if anything is confusing just ask for clarfication. 
TKeira_Lea: I love your long posts. Now I feel less bad for making mine so long. Oh, plus yours are intelligent and inspiring and just awesome.
(cries) I never got to read the picnic...because I lost my Rebel Stand book...
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Jacen Solo Rest in Peace
Jagged Fel for Emporer
JAG: I came for an apology
JAINA: Make it quick. I'm busy.
JAG: Actually, I came to listen.
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NYCitygurl
Title: Railroad Baroness of SFFBC, C&G, and NSWFF
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
12/31/07 4:08pm
Subject:
RE: The Conference Room (A Jaina and Jag Discussion Thread) *FURY and REVELATION SPOILERS!!!*
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Usually I buy the new SW books (at least the post-ROTS ones) and then want to cry at the money I wasted. However, RS is TOTALLY worth the money. Seriously, you should buy a copy. It's gold.
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"We Earth Men have a talent for ruining big, beautiful things." ~ Master of padawanlost, Ultima_1 and Jedimaster_JainaSolo
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Darkwriter
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
12/31/07 4:32pm
Subject:
RE: The Conference Room (A Jaina and Jag Discussion Thread) *FURY and REVELATION SPOILERS!!!*
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I did buy a copy. And then I lost it. And then I cried. I suppose I could buy another, but I'm pretty broke... Wait. I've got it. My brother still owes me a birthday present from two months ago. And a Christmas present. I'll just make him buy it. He's going to read it anyway.
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Jacen Solo Rest in Peace
Jagged Fel for Emporer
JAG: I came for an apology
JAINA: Make it quick. I'm busy.
JAG: Actually, I came to listen.
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NYCitygurl
Title: Railroad Baroness of SFFBC, C&G, and NSWFF
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
12/31/07 4:50pm
Subject:
RE: The Conference Room (A Jaina and Jag Discussion Thread) *FURY and REVELATION SPOILERS!!!*
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Good idea 
And I looooove Jane Eyre
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TKeira_Lea
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
12/31/07 4:53pm
Subject:
RE: The Conference Room (A Jaina and Jag Discussion Thread) *FURY and REVELATION SPOILERS!!!*
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You lost the book? Definitely ask the brother for another copy. Nat's right; it's gold.
darkwriter posted:
Jag had the kind of childhood Jaina always wanted. Jaina has the parents Jag most likely years for, the kind that go out of their way to make sure you're safe.
Couldn't have said it better. QFT.
That's the biggest reason I think J/J ultimately works.
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