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Topic:
The Enigmatic and Mysterious Count Dooku - Challenges posted 11/06/07 - any takers?
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Persephone_Kore
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
6/11/07 12:59pm
Subject:
RE: The Enigmatic and Mysterious Count Dooku a.k.a. Darth Tyranus Deliberation Thread/B'lated B'day
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Hm. That's an interesting perspective -- it really wouldn't have occurred to me to think of it as an EU thing so much as a fanfic thing. Certainly, in Dooku's case including or excluding EU stuff can have a pretty dramatic effect on your characterization expectations, but more generally speaking, if someone asks a "What if?" question it simply doesn't occur to me to treat it as a question about how the change could have worked out in the context of movies.
And, well, I got into Star Wars fanfic partly by reading FernWithy/JediGaladriel, who does not much care for the EU but wrote very extensive AUs based on movie continuity only.  So I really don't tend to associate the two.
I don't think redemption is ever wussy, really, but I agree that trying to fit Dooku's redemption into the movies would be... challenging? :P I'm sure there are ways it could have been done, but there would have to be some major changes even if the only point you consider is how pivotal the discovery of Sidious was in the existing plot.
I do tend to feel that, much as I love Dark Rendezvous and want to play with it, it's a contradiction of spirit of the actual Saga (though not of the EU) in having the Jedi actually consider the possibility of redemption from the Dark Side. I can work around it, but my movie-only interpretation is definitely that that option didn't cross anyone's mind but Luke's because it hadn't ever happened or appeared to be possible before.
There does seem to be a lot of confusion, not just in Star Wars but across various fandoms, about the relative significance of the decision to change and the follow-through. You get some people who seem to think that announcing the decision is enough and then everything's hunky-dory, no consequences... and then others who seem to think that the decision should make no difference, that (even among people like readers who may be able to see into the character's head) the character should get no credit or support whatsoever until he or she has made full restitution. If the character dies before that point, tough luck. Which... in some ways is understandable, but also seems to leave the situation fairly hopeless in some cases.
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LLL
Title: TFN Fan Fiction Archive Editor
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
6/11/07 8:25pm
Subject:
RE: The Enigmatic and Mysterious Count Dooku a.k.a. Darth Tyranus Deliberation Thread/B'lated B'day
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When I deal with that situation, I go to real books about human psychology and personal growth, and these always inform my writing. (has a whole bookcase just about full).
I do tend to feel that, much as I love Dark Rendezvous and want to play with it, it's a contradiction of spirit of the actual Saga (though not of the EU) in having the Jedi actually consider the possibility of redemption from the Dark Side. I can work around it, but my movie-only interpretation is definitely that that option didn't cross anyone's mind but Luke's because it hadn't ever happened or appeared to be possible before.
What I made up about that is that Yoda actually HAS considered it here, tried it, and concluded that there is no way it can ever be done ... which is why he discourages Luke.
Which is stupid, because certainly he can see that Dooku was going to fold until Ani and Obi show up.
When it comes to The Dook, Yoda never was the brightest little green bulb on the tree, if you ask me. It'd be a TRIP to go back to Yoda's Padawan-hood to figure out what gave him such a HUGE blind spot where Dooku was concerned.
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ardavenport
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
8/9/07 8:52pm
Subject:
RE: The Enigmatic and Mysterious Count Dooku a.k.a. Darth Tyranus Deliberation Thread
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Mmmmmmm, Yoda's blind spot toward Dooku doesn't seem to me to be nearly as bad as Ki-Adi Mundi and Mace Windus', especially at the beginning of ATOC. Yeah, at the end of the movie, that party was over, but at the beginning it was all "He couldn't kill you; it's not in his character" and "He's a political idealist". I'd say that by the end of ATOC they had a proper appreciation of Dooku.
I wonder.....if most 'Lost Jedi' did not go dark like Dooku? Perhaps they would have been more suspicious if they had.
Speaking of blind spots.......in the ROTS novel it seems clear to me that Dooku had no idea that Palpatine was planning to destroy all the Jedi or what that clone army was really for. How much did Dooku know, I wonder?
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LLL
Title: TFN Fan Fiction Archive Editor
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
8/9/07 8:58pm
Subject:
RE: The Enigmatic and Mysterious Count Dooku a.k.a. Darth Tyranus Deliberation Thread
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A DOOKU BANNER!!!
It's beautiful!!!
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Persephone_Kore
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
8/9/07 11:40pm
Subject:
RE: The Enigmatic and Mysterious Count Dooku a.k.a. Darth Tyranus Deliberation Thread
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It is very nice. *G* I pointed my cowriter to the board to see it even though she doesn't drop by all that often.
LLL posted:
Persephone_Kore posted:
I do tend to feel that, much as I love Dark Rendezvous and want to play with it, it's a contradiction of spirit of the actual Saga (though not of the EU) in having the Jedi actually consider the possibility of redemption from the Dark Side. I can work around it, but my movie-only interpretation is definitely that that option didn't cross anyone's mind but Luke's because it hadn't ever happened or appeared to be possible before.
What I made up about that is that Yoda actually HAS considered it here, tried it, and concluded that there is no way it can ever be done ... which is why he discourages Luke.
Well, yes, since I want to work with Y:DR, I kind of fold it in that way too -- but my point is that I'm reinterpreting the movies to fit the fanfic (in this case the EU), and I know it. I don't think it's the natural interpretation of the movies; I think the idea was for Anakin and Luke to be unprecedented.
ardavenport posted:
I wonder.....if most 'Lost Jedi' did not go dark like Dooku? Perhaps they would have been more suspicious if they had.
I really think most of them must not, and for that reason. There's a tendency to equate leaving the Jedi with turning evil, and obviously Dooku is part of the reason for that, but it seems clear to me that this wasn't an assumption the Jedi themselves were making.
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LLL
Title: TFN Fan Fiction Archive Editor
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
8/10/07 9:34pm
Subject:
RE: The Enigmatic and Mysterious Count Dooku a.k.a. Darth Tyranus Deliberation Thread
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I don't really worry much about what is being reinterpreted to go with what. It happens to work, and for that, I give thanks.
I agree about other former Jedi, however. I think most Jedi were so thoroughly inculcated into the cult of goodness that even if they did leave, they would never consider turning "bad."
I imagine they would have been disappointed in themselves, that they couldn't live up to the Jedi ideals.
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ardavenport
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
8/12/07 8:13am
Subject:
RE: The Enigmatic and Mysterious Count Dooku a.k.a. Darth Tyranus Deliberation Thread
- Date Edited:
8/12/07 8:14am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
ardavenport
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Persephone_Kore posted:
I don't think redemption is ever wussy, really, but I agree that trying to fit Dooku's redemption into the movies would be... challenging? :P I'm sure there are ways it could have been done, but there would have to be some major changes even if the only point you consider is how pivotal the discovery of Sidious was in the existing plot.
I don't think you could have a redemption of Dooku without having a completely new, AU Saga. The redemptive character is generally the central one and, to me, would have to be someone who could go to the dark side and back. As an AU, that could be Dooku, and I think Qui-Gon, or Mace. I don't picture it being Yoda, Obi-Wan or Luke; while they might have moments of weakness and fear they seem to be firmly in the 'light' corner in the movies. And NOT Palpatine -- as Lucas says in the DVD commentary "<hehe> He's just so evil." I think that's what I dislike most about the whole 'dark Luke' business -- he had his big moment of crisis with Vader; he's already done that.
Persephone_Kore posted:
I do tend to feel that, much as I love Dark Rendezvous and want to play with it, it's a contradiction of spirit of the actual Saga (though not of the EU) in having the Jedi actually consider the possibility of redemption from the Dark Side. I can work around it, but my movie-only interpretation is definitely that that option didn't cross anyone's mind but Luke's because it hadn't ever happened or appeared to be possible before.
I tend to agree with that as well, with some qualifiers. I find it hard to believe that it has never, ever happened that someone has switched sides from dark to light. Perhaps in the ancient times of the order (video game times) side switching like that was not unheard of. But by the time you get to the Old Republic times something like that hasn't happened in so long that everyone automatically assumes that this option is now extinct.
But I wonder....when would Yoda have had the chance of trying to redeem Darth Vader? He certainly gave Anakin every chance and his best advice, but once Anakin (as Vader) went so far as to personally lead an extermination of the whole Jedi Order, Yoda wrote him off. In the movies it just looks like Yoda and Obi-Wan really do consider anyone who has become a Sith to be dead and that's final.
The Jedi in the movies also consider the Sith to be extinct until they absolutely, positively can't deny it. They seem to be very set in their thinking about the state of the Force and the light and dark sides in the movies, which was one of their weaknesses. Even though they knew that there were Sith causing trouble again, the Jedi Council still didn't suspect Dooku, who had left the Order. 
You would think that Dooku would be Suspect #1, but nnnnoooooooooooo. 'OUR people don't go bad.' I think that the Council had it set in their minds that the Sith were rogues from the start and could not possibly have been Jedi.
Aaaaaah, the Dooku banner is gone. It was nice.
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LLL
Title: TFN Fan Fiction Archive Editor
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
8/12/07 8:13pm
Subject:
RE: The Enigmatic and Mysterious Count Dooku a.k.a. Darth Tyranus Deliberation Thread
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I disagree about Palpy. But, that's a topic for another thread.
I don't think Yoda could have redeemed Vadey. As seen in the "train yourself to let go, you must" scene, he just doesn't have the rapport with him. But Dooku, however ... different story. If anyone redeemed the Dook in an AU, it would have to be Yoda.
Well, OK ... maybe Jo.
OT: Friends of Kynstar are invited to contribute to this thread.
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LLL
Title: TFN Fan Fiction Archive Editor
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
8/14/07 5:58pm
Subject:
RE: The Enigmatic and Mysterious Count Dooku a.k.a. Darth Tyranus Deliberation Thread
- Date Edited:
8/14/07 5:58pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
LLL
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I just noticed all the Dooku authors who won awards in Before this year.
CONGRATULATIONS PERSEPHONE, SABARTE, AND CHARMISJESS!!!
*bestows a Golden Dooku to each*
(OT: Check out the Kynstar Get Well Fic, it's actually starting to do something. *faints*)
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Dooku-Darklighter
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
11/6/07 11:49am
Subject:
Challenges
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Hello!
Kynstar said I could post these, so here they are. Dooku is my favorite Sith and despite the fact that his redemption would completely alter the Saga, I adore such stories and have always felt that Chris' character wasn't completely lost, more irritated at the route the Republic was taking and a bit of a maverick. I also think he was a stand-up Master. Hence my challenges:
1) Master Dooku, Jedi Master
In this one, Dooku NEVER Turns Dark. Dooku is the hero of the story. Dooku has to assist a youngling somehow. Can include: Obi, Qui, Yoda, OC's; NO Ani! Must include an animal of some kind. No kill, story. Word count: 3000-10,000 words.
2) Dooku Redeemed
In this one, he's pulled back from the abyss. Either: Qui, Obi, Yoda, or a Youngling 'save' him. How would he go about atoning for his sins? What would it take for the Order to see that he is TRULY repentant? Would someone be in his corner from the beginning or would it be a terrific struggle to gain trust again? Once cleansed, would the weary one take another Padawan?
No Ani! No Kill, Story. Word Count: 5000+
Please give the Count a chance. Thanks for listening.
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LLL
Title: TFN Fan Fiction Archive Editor
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
11/6/07 4:55pm
Subject:
RE: The Enigmatic and Mysterious Count Dooku a.k.a. Darth Tyranus Deliberation Thread
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Oh, wow. That last Dooku challenge ... 
But that would be a NOVEL. No time.
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Kynstar
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
11/7/07 5:27am
Subject:
RE: The Enigmatic and Mysterious Count Dooku - Challenges posted 11/06/07 - any takers?
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Greetings my fellow Dooku fans! (and those who swing by on occasion) Hope everybody has had a fun filled 5 mths! (been about that long since I've posted last)
Glad to see folks continued discussions while I was in the hospital (which btw things are going well and my lil Sith in training - well you know - is doing great! Growing like a weed; a lil over 12 lbs now at 2.5 mths old) please keep discussing if you like.
I thought it sorta funny that they didn't suspect Dooku either, though they were going by his past actions (ack can't think of the word...) and so they couldn't fathom that he would do such a thing or even be behind it.  But he fooled them! 
And I also wondered about the RotS novel talking about how Dooku didn't seem to know about Palpy's wanting the destruction of the Order. I do recall Palpy stating Dooku would be on the 'new' Council for the 'New Order' that would be mainly Siths. I can see Dooku getting blindsighted (sp) by this because he wanted to help the Order 'see' how they had fallen to complacency and totally working for corrupted Senators. Shoot the book even shows that he didn't want to kill Obi-Wan and so he doesn't. (Oh forgive me if this doesn't quite make sense...it seems my head ain't quite all there and what I'm thinking might not be what I'm typing due to not sleeping too much - lil one hasn't quite got the hang of sleeping thru the night )
As for redemption, yeah it would prob have had to been either Yoda, Jocasta, or maybe the Force ghost/voice of Qui-Gon. Those 3 would have been the only one who could have helped him back I think. I think it would have been possible, I mean look at Dark Rendezvous, he came close...so close 
Well our 2 challenges look pretty good and exactly that - a challenge. Lots of words though, if you want to try and not quite make it to 5,000 or 3,000-10,000 go ahead and attempt it. You never know, once you start you could eventually get that much or more. I've done a few challenges with word count limitations and accidently have gone over and had to revamp.
It's good to be back!! And I thank you all for your thoughts and prayers and good wishes! It obviously worked cuz here I am and Alana is well (which is kind'a funny cuz she was always in the green, only I had the problems - which is what I'd want anyways wouldn't want my lil one in any danger).
Thanks again for the Round Robin!! I truly enjoyed it!! It's so good to know that folks are so caring in the fanfic world!  Your love and kindness was felt!
Kynstar
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Member of Rebel Legion and Jedi Assembly (Kynstar Lans)
Long live fanfiction...for in these tales do our heroes still exist.
See stories/viggies in bio
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AnakinsFavorite
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
11/7/07 10:08am
Subject:
RE: The Enigmatic and Mysterious Count Dooku - Challenges posted 11/06/07 - any takers?
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Hey, no problem- it was a blast to write! Sadly, I don't think it was as interesting/fun for you I'm just glad that you and the little one are doing alright!
And yes, I do lurk here occasionally, but I'm a fledgling Dooku fan 
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"Gotta pay your dues if you wanna sing the blues,
And you know it don't come easy.
You don't have to shout or leap about
You can even play them easy."
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Kynstar
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
11/13/07 6:53am
Subject:
RE: The Enigmatic and Mysterious Count Dooku - Challenges posted 11/06/07 - any takers?
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Glad to know about the idea of you being a fledgling fan! The old chap needs all the fandom he can get, I mean look at the poor man! The end for him wasn't good at all!
She's doing wonderful and growing...my goodness!
So anybody interested in taking up either challenge? 
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Member of Rebel Legion and Jedi Assembly (Kynstar Lans)
Long live fanfiction...for in these tales do our heroes still exist.
See stories/viggies in bio
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earlybird-obi-wan
Registered:
Aug '06
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Date Posted:
11/13/07 8:35am
Subject:
RE: The Enigmatic and Mysterious Count Dooku - Challenges posted 11/06/07 - any takers?
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great to hear your baby and you are doing so great and I am this month busy with NaNoWriMo but maybe Dooku will get a place in it.
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