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Author	Topic: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - 11/16 - announcement)
1Yodimus_Prime Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 1/23/07 10:58pm Subject: RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread-1/23-Disintegrations OK) - Date Edited: 1/23/07 10:59pm (1 edits total) Edited By: 1Yodimus_Prime
	I'm actually working on a fic right now that deals with copious amounts of death in a...slightly...serious manner. Granted, it's about Sith Lords and not soldiers of fortune, but I think in this rare case, alignment isn't all that important. I mean, death is the end after all, even for the nigh-all-powerful. When facing the abyss, I think it stops being important whether you killed the cargo ship full of orphan nuns because it was a necessary part of a greater mission, or for your own sick pleasure. Either way the maggots get their meal, and that meal is you. Hard to argue ethics with bleached bones. Which of course, leads right into the most important detail you have to keep in mind when planning any and every death you write: It's not the victim you have to worry about. It's everyone else. In the complex and slippery world of relationships - especially underworld relationships - the most perfect and brutal test of connection is to see how a given character acts when another character dies. I've found myself, coming from a serious take on the narrative, writing much, much more about each character's history and life than I ever have in the past, just so I have a better grasp on how they might respond emotionally, and how that response would take shape outwardly to everyone else. Because that's another very important point: how people really feel about someone's death, and the feelings about that person's death that they show, almost never coincide. Sometimes, they're even opposites. Simply 'knowing' your character wears their heart on their sleeve, or bottles things up, isn't enough. Because you might find, that tough-as-steel, engine fluid drinkin', testosterone-sweating Scourge From The Outer Rim you thought you crafted so well, is the one who breaks down into tears. See, it might be that he looked like he bottled up his emotions and welded the lid, only because his priority list of emotional response was just so strict, and his normal responses so subtle. He might not even know that's the reason. But kill his best friend, man, and you'll see. Same goes for the 'sleeve'ers. How can you be absolutely certain that isn't a form of bottling up? You can't. Not without going back and learning who your character really is. And when you do that, you find it's not their tendency toward outburst or shyness that dictates their response, it's stuff that's much deeper, yet much less complicated, than you ever expected. I can't tell you any more than that. I'm afraid it's your characters that have to tell you the rest. Really, I think it's good for writers to kill a cool character every once in a while. If you really liked that character, then you'll care enough to make it the best damn scene you've ever written. That honestly makes it the only reliable way you'll know you'll do enough legwork to get it somewhere close to right. Then you'll have a decent sounding for next time, when maybe the character isn't so major. After the first time, you might even find yourself in a position later where a very short scene early in a story, one that you'd originally assumed would be a throwaway with some cannon fodder, has become a very emotional pivot point, setting the tone for your entire narrative. Or it'll just be a really neat explosion. I guarantee nothing. ("Sounding" here, is used in the victorian sense of 'taking a measurement', rather than the modern sense of "Sounding like what, you idiot? Proofread your freakin sentences for cryin' out loud." ) -----signature----- Rule 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head. --- http://boards.theforce.net/b/b1/26481069 - The Wise http://boards.theforce.net/B/b1/21283317 - Planet Hopping
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Luton_Plunder Registered: Jun '06	Date Posted: 1/24/07 3:39am Subject: RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread-1/23-Disintegrations OK) - Date Edited: 1/24/07 3:41am (1 edits total) Edited By: Luton_Plunder
	Great update, Face/Seedysider! Thanks for the inclusion in the index What a fortuitous topic to talk about, and what a fascinating response from Yod (if I may call you that, of course ) Your points are all extremely excellent, and going through them there is hardly anything I can really add. I haven't really written many death scenes before, but I think I have a good handle on how they ought to play out. They're extremely difficult - you can dwell on them for far too long and make the whole thing seem over-the-top melodramatic, or you can undersell it and have everyone seemingly coast over the issue. Either one can be disconcerting, and actually they are both open to interpretation by the reader. I think that entire point ties in with another one you made: Yodimus posted: Really, I think it's good for writers to kill a cool character every once in a while. If you really liked that character, then you'll care enough to make it the best damn scene you've ever written. That honestly makes it the only reliable way you'll know you'll do enough legwork to get it somewhere close to right. Exactly. Exactly exactly. I think it's the best way to make your readers really buy the death of your characters. Make them love the character, then bump 'em off. They did it to Anakin in Star by Star, and I nearly stopped reading the NJO after that because he was my damn favourite one of the whole bunch. "How could you, Troy Denning?" I yelled. "He was the only jedi that didn't want to talk about his feelings all the time! Bah! Jacen can't carry the series on his own. What a poor literary decision." Of course, sometime later I realised I was reacting the death itself rather than the actual literary issues behind it. And then I fully appreciated the impact that it caused, and was suitably blown away. As we speak I have finished the detailed plotlines for my fic series and am in the process of typing the stories themselves, and as it happens I have to kill someone that I really don't want to. Seriously, I considered altering the entire fic because I wanted this character left alive. But I had to rationalise again, just like with Star by Star, that it isn't the poor storytelling decision that's making me want to change it, it's the fact that I won't ever get to see that character again. Who'da thunk this would be such a difficult thing to do Anyway, I didn't really add anything to that discussion but I felt I needed to agree with you, heh. Those are my thoughts on death in general when writing fics. As for how it relates to the underworld specifically, well. That's a whole other matter that I hadn't thought much about until now. Death is doled out so easily in Star Wars. People get shot with blasters, slashed with lightsabers and nobody bats an eyelid. Generally in literature the good guys get a sad, poigniant death scene and the baddies get to have a cool one-liner before they shuffle off their mortal coil But here we have the grey area in the middle. What do seedy characters get when they die, from a writing perspective? Seriously, that's a question All depends on context, I suppose. But as you can all see I'm much better at agreeing with people than coming up with my own insights, haha - so I'll hang around and wait to see what everyone else has to say -----signature----- The Essential Guide to OCs. Say No to Mary. http://boards.theforce.net/fan_fiction_resource/b10304/25562370/p1
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1Yodimus_Prime Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 1/24/07 8:51pm Subject: RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread-1/23-Disintegrations OK)
	Luton_Plunder posted: Generally in literature the good guys get a sad, poigniant death scene and the baddies get to have a cool one-liner before they shuffle off their mortal coil But here we have the grey area in the middle. What do seedy characters get when they die, from a writing perspective? ... I'll hang around and wait to see what everyone else has to say. So will I. That's a good question. "Yod" is perfectly acceptable, by the way. -----signature----- Rule 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head. --- http://boards.theforce.net/b/b1/26481069 - The Wise http://boards.theforce.net/B/b1/21283317 - Planet Hopping
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JadeSolo Title: NSF managing NSWFF Registered: Sep '02	Date Posted: 1/28/07 11:04am Subject: RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread-1/23-Disintegrations OK)
	In keeping with their grey area middle location, seedy characters get a mediocre one-liner and a laughable death scene. I'm only partially joking. Seriously, Boba Fett's last line was a girly scream, followed by a Sarlacc gulp. Okay, he wasn't really dead, but at the time we all thought he was. Greedo - in the original ANH, he trash talks, gives a one-liner that goes perfectly with death, and gets fried. In the (blasphemous!) "Han Shoots Second" version, he completely misses Han when he shoots. That's a pretty pathetic way to live your last few moments. Jango didn't even get a line. And then he got his head lopped off by Mace, who made it look like the act took no effort at all. Don't forget Zam! She died as Jango's pawn, though she did manage a "sleamo" before she croaked. But maybe this is just a pattern among bounty hunters. Smugglers might have a little more luck. -----signature----- "If you expect a kick in the balls and you get a slap in the face, it's a victory." "May God bless you and keep you always...I mean that in a civic deist way." -Prof. Siegel "No guaranteed money, but all guaranteed fun!"
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Forcefire Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 1/29/07 1:51pm Subject: RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread-1/23-Disintegrations OK)
	Actually JadeSolo, I once made note of two of those deaths in my response to the first Seedy Side challenger, Tradition. The character, however, opted for a tone more... reverent, I suppose you could call it. The seedy sider has to think about death, whether he or she is dealing it, or running from it. If they're at all realistic with themselves, they've got to have spent some time thinking about what happens if they cross the wrong person. And maybe their reaction to that is to shove their feelings to the back and just get on with the job. Maybe it's to be ready at any moment. Or maybe they're not realistic about it at all. But the actual act of dying is probably the most powerful, and definitely the most sincere, moment a typically dishonest seedy sider can have about that kind of thing. Nothing to gain by lying at that point. -----signature----- "Dear Diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy. Today we were kidnapped by hillfolk, never to be seen again. It was the best day ever." Jayne Cobb, the Hero of Canton
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Jade_Max Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 2/7/07 12:11am Subject: RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread-1/23-Disintegrations OK)
	Very cool index guys! Thanks for pointing me in this direction! -----signature----- You'll Like me when I'm Dead - V/P Dark Drama - http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/29236355 Don't think, write. And have faith that your subconscious mind is smarter than you.- lazy RIP my little Nibbler
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Jedi_Eruanne Registered: Jun '05	Date Posted: 2/7/07 9:06pm Subject: RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread-1/23-Disintegrations OK)
	OOoooo, interesting topic, Nathan! Well, as anyone who knows me knows that I HATE it when characters I like die. But I do know the power and nessecity (sp?) of killing off a character when the time is right...I don't LIKE it, but I know that sometimes it just has to be. Anywho, I think that the I-Don't-Think-About-Anyone-But-Me kind of seedy-sider would be very afraid of dying, as their whole world revolves around making themselves feel comfortable and happy (if not in the conventional sense of comfortable, I mean, look at Boba Fett--living in a pent-house he was not). So I think when they knew they were dying they would either, reach out to everyone for help, or just die is silence and pride.... I guess, the problem with trying to steriotype things like this is that's all it will be, a steriotype....I'm not a huge fan of steriotypes, I like thinking outside of the box. Meh, that's my thoughts on this subject at this hour (time for bed, for me). -----signature----- <><Jedi Knight For Christ><> Links to Fics in Profile---go check em out! Loyal Reader of Quiet_Mandalorian. MystralGurl's CRAZY Evil Twin (mwuhahahaha) Have you hugged your evil twin today?
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MsLanna Title: CR GSFF Central Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 2/8/07 1:23am Subject: RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread-1/23-Disintegrations OK)
	Well, recently I decided when and how one of my characters will die. And since I'm a girl (and she , too and its 1st person PoV) it will be all sad and teary eyed, preceeded and followed by some big massacre. I think the circumstances of a death are rather important. People will approach it differently if they know it's probably gonna happen, are caught by surprise, sacrifice themselves or get a long painful span of time to consider their approaching end (that's called torture). And you have to keep the character in character. It's his last chance to be him/herself and if you have a cynical character and suddenly a melodramatic end... might not work out too well. Maybe it would, if you put a looong story with a credible explanation before it. Since most of my fics are from the first person's PoV I don't have much trouble with the ones that are left behind. It's hard to continue a story when the narrator is dead and not able to do the force ghost stuff. I know I'm taking the easy way out. And now for something completely different... ...did I already submit 'I, Boba' and 'When I was still me'? The latter is more about the way down to the seedy side, does that count? And in the Diary Challenge I use a character from the seedy side as well. Truth be told, I can't think of any of my characters that is not on the seedy side. shakes head What would Freud say about that. -----signature----- Padawan owned by Corellian_Ale Master of CloneCaptainRex. Proud FanFic Master of Darth_Sathanos Why so serious? Master of baritonejedi
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Vivid_Scripts Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 2/8/07 7:10am Subject: RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread-1/23-Disintegrations OK)
	The best seedy character death I can think of isn't from Star Wars, its from Scarface. Tony killed Manny. That was big. -----signature----- The ANSWER to 1984 is 1776
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The_Face Title: Fan Fic Manager, now with more real butter flavor Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 2/12/07 2:31pm Subject: RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread-1/23-Disintegrations OK)
	Firstly, Jade_Max, welcome to the Seedy Side! We only bite if it’s profitable. Such great responses! Really appreciate the angles everyone’s bringing here. Yod, you brought up many excellent points, and I applaud you. I think any good character death needs to have Impact. That’s usually the impact it has on that person’s comrades, or killer, or other associates. The death of one is usually ripe for the development of the others. Really, I think it's good for writers to kill a cool character every once in a while. You should do PR for me. If none of the popular ones die, or if the good guys always survive, there’s no jeopardy. And yes, it forces you to step up your writing to do that character the proper honor. Which just may be a really neat explosion. sniff That’s what he would have wanted! (Backstory: Face kills liked characters rather regularly.) LP: Balance is definitely important, so as not to go in either extreme in the death scene (long or brief, overly or under-emotional, etc.). But the type of death a seedy-sider gets… This is where I have the easy part of just asking the questions and hoping there’s some good answers or quality debate within the topic. Yes, it’s true, I ask things just hoping something interesting comes of it. Anyway, I don’t think you can really say there’s one right way to kill off a seedy-sider. The underworld characters are in fact one of the most diverse subgroups of the GFFA. You can make generalizations much more easily about the Jedi, or Sith, or NewRep soldiers, or whatever. But I think part of the appeal of these rogues is that they are so very diverse. You can’t peg them down. Even if you think you know your gruff but lovable merc, he may just sell you to the enemy when you’re not looking. We run the gamut from the most vile and senselessly violent mobster to the rakish smuggler who turns out to have a heart of gold. When writing a death, write one that fits the character, and what you want to do with that character. This is, of course, the final step in his/her character arc and maybe the turning point of it. I find that death, in fact, is the only thing that makes sense for a character’s development, odd as that seems. A recent death in my Galaxy Noir series of a major character there was an example. Sometimes tragedy is the right answer; a happy ending may in fact go against the good of the story. Since I do action fics, I believe in happy-endings-at-a-price. All those blaster bolts flying, yet the good guys come out perfectly fine, and all the baddies end up in coffins? I don’t think so. Again, you need jeopardy. Once your seedy-sider’s about to bite the dust, something’s probably going to change. Do they throw their last moments into taking as many people with them as possible? Finally take some potshots at the Empire? Weigh themselves down with regret? Turn their lives around and stop the violence? Face up to their true feelings? Explode? Can… can they explode? That’d be pretty okay? My point, of which I have lost track is that the death scene is a product of the plot and of the character arc you’ve crafted until then. Which is not to say you won’t have options on which direction to go (Remorse or no?). Whatever you do, it should be well-written. If that’s an “oh bugger” and unglamorous decap, there you go. If that’s twenty-seven angsty clichés, well, I’m afraid you’ve lost me. Oh, and if you’re gonna do an offscreen death, do it right and do it for a reason (raises eyebrow at X-men 3). Now where was I? Back to responses to other people, rather than my own rants. JadeSolo: That does seem to be a running trend. And I like what Forcefire did with them in Tradition. When you think about the situation Jango was in, it’s not half-bad. Greedo I see as gutsy. Incompetent, but gutsy. Forcefire: Wow, you said a lot of stuff I just did. I’m superfluous and redundant. Cool! Eruanne: Right, when the universe revolves around you, it’s nigh impossible to comprehend it going on and leaving you behind. If the character dying is one that is well-liked, the intent is of course that the reader doesn’t like it. Perhaps the sign of a good “hero” death? MsLanna: it will be all sad and teary eyed, preceeded and followed by some big massacre. Of course. I can only think of one first-person narrator I’ve read be killed, and that was the bounty hunter from KotOR, Calo Nord, in a vignette that I wrote. It’s a bit of a trick to do, but it’s generally the least expected character to die – unless they’re narrating post-mortem, which could be interesting. I, Boba is indexed here. PM me or SeedySider a link to When I was still me and I’ll see if we can add it. Vivid_Scripts: I’ve not seen Scarface, but that last bit is about all I ever hear about, so that right there is telling on the power of a good death sequence. There’ll be an update soon-ish, maybe with the next topic if this one is about done. Thanks again, everyone, for your contributions! -----signature----- Yes, what if Vader vanity surfs? -Mon Mothma on the dangers of Luke keeping the Skywalker name
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JadeSolo Title: NSF managing NSWFF Registered: Sep '02	Date Posted: 2/12/07 3:15pm Subject: RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread-1/23-Disintegrations OK)
	Oh, and if you’re gonna do an offscreen death, do it right and do it for a reason (raises eyebrow at X-men 3). Scott! On the one hand, he was killed by the very woman he mourned (hmm, kind of like Anakin...), and you get an idea of what happened when Jean does the same thing to the Professor - or so we assume. On the other hand, if Scott's not going to marry a Jean look-a-like in this storyline, at least give him a good send-off. Scarface is a great example of death. I like the Godfather trilogy as well. There's a huge difference between the deaths of Sonny and Michael. Sonny dies in a manner befitting his personality - violent, sudden, enraged, caught up in something he can't bully his way out of. Michael dies old, alone, and decrepit - goes with the way he lived his life. And what if death isn't a problem, if you can be rebuilt? I recently finished Ilium by Dan Simmons and am on part 2 of the story, Olympos. In Ilium one of the major characters is eaten by an allosaurus (long story), but his body's rebuilt through the science mojo they've got. His death is perfect for his character at the time - he's a pudgy, whining, womanizing weakling. But in Olympos, for me that death wouldn't work at all because he's changed so much - now he's a leader and a warrior. And the funny thing is that when death isn't an issue for him, it doesn't really affect him except to make him a bit more wary of dinosaurs. That doesn't really work with the GFFA because of the science, unless you're reading Children of the Jedi, a book I hate. But I think it's interesting to look at how many near-death experiences a seedysider can be in - not because he's lucky and always gets away, but because he's just not in the right situation. And even more so, how much those experiences would change him, if at all. -----signature----- "If you expect a kick in the balls and you get a slap in the face, it's a victory." "May God bless you and keep you always...I mean that in a civic deist way." -Prof. Siegel "No guaranteed money, but all guaranteed fun!"
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The_Face Title: Fan Fic Manager, now with more real butter flavor Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 2/18/07 1:33pm Subject: RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread-1/23-Disintegrations OK)
	And what if death isn't a problem, if you can be rebuilt? Not too long ago, in my fic Escape from Perdition and my collaboration with Mjsullivan (both indexed here), I used a mob enforcer character named Zelvyn Judas who was a Gand, but had been so seriously injured so many times, he was now mostly machine (it's a recurring Star Wars theme, I guess ). Judas couldn't seem to die; everything he did just ended up in another implant, another replacement part. So he finally decided he'd had enough, and spent most of his time trying to go out in a bang, to take on more and more impossible missions hoping to get killed, but only becoming harder and harder to kill. He was just completely broken by all he'd been through. So cyborgs can open up that can of worms, and maybe some aliens, if you wanna invent a super-regenerative species. Update coming. -----signature----- Yes, what if Vader vanity surfs? -Mon Mothma on the dangers of Luke keeping the Skywalker name
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SeedySider Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 2/18/07 2:06pm Subject: RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread-1/23-Disintegrations OK)
	Nineteenth Update We start this update with some new fics. First, we have a number (three) of stories from Jade_Max centering on an AU Padmé who became not a senator, but a scoundrel. It’s definitely not the politician we know from the films, but she’s definitely more fun in a firefight. 1. It’s the Little Things That are Worth Saving Timeline: post-RotS Genre: AU, one-poster Main character: Padmé Naberrie Summary: What if Padmé chose a different profession? Namely, smuggling. Status: Complete 2. Smuggler’s Price Timeline: post-RotS Genre: AU, challenge response Main character: Padmé Naberrie Summary: Captain Padmé Naberrie, smuggler extraordinaire, aids the struggling Jedi survivors – for a price. Status: Complete 3. Lady Luck Timeline: Post-RotS Genre: AU, adventure, romance, drama Main characters: Padmé Naberrie, Anakin Skywalker, Barriss Offee Summary: Employed by Bail Organa, with Jedi Master Anakin Skywalker as her reluctant co-pilot, Captain Padmé Naberrie is on a dangerous mission to locate and rescue the Jedi that Emperor Mace Windu has decreed to be a threat... Status: In-progress Next up is a fic that welcomes The_Mandalorian to the Seedy Side index. If you haven’t guessed, it’s about the underworld’s most prolific Mandalorian, Boba Fett himself, not to mention Mara Jade in a more grey period of her life. The Chronicles of Boba Fett: The Faceless of the Empire Timeline: Before ANH Genre: Action Main characters: Boba Fett, Mara Jade, and the Death Watch Summary: The Emperor dispatches his most lethal tool to team up with the galaxy’s greatest bounty hunter to eliminate forces that threaten Imperial plans. Status: Complete And finally it’s Vivid_Scripts with a new vignette in the same style as his featured underworld fic Data Retrieval. The Power of a Credit Timeline: Pre-AotC Genre: Vignette Main characters: OC gun-for-hire Alanta Summary: An assassin reflects on a recent hit, the life of a soldier of fortune, and tending bar. Status: Complete And next up it’s a brand-new topic for discussion! “You Old Smoothy.” The latest in our series of character studies brings us to a guy who I’m pretty sure is the only man other than Vader to wear a cape in the movies. That’s right; it’s Lando Calrissian, one-time owner of the Millennium Falcon, sabacc player, general scoundrel, and… traitor? This is your chance to discuss Han’s pal – his place in the Star Wars mythos, what he brings to the films and to fanfic thematically, how to write him, and how he fits into the GFFA underworld. ****** Please read the fics, drop ‘em some replies, and especially discuss the Lando!* That’s right. “The” Lando. SeedySider -----signature----- Between the essence And the descent Falls the Shadow. - T. S. Eliot ** Give in to the Gray Side ->http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=22717892&brd=10304
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Jade_Max Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 2/21/07 7:11pm Subject: RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - 2/18 - disc. Lando)
	peeks in, peering at the challenge - uh oh... I thought I'd pop in and just mention how cool this index looks... awesome job guys! -----signature----- You'll Like me when I'm Dead - V/P Dark Drama - http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/29236355 Don't think, write. And have faith that your subconscious mind is smarter than you.- lazy RIP my little Nibbler
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MsLanna Title: CR GSFF Central Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 2/22/07 2:28am Subject: RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - 2/18 - disc. Lando)
	Hmmm. Lando. Never really like him much, I just didn't connect with him. He's too much of a Smoothie, too much of a Lady's Man and squire for my taste. I just don't know what to do with him. The only time I liked readin a book with him was the Black Fleet Crisis (I think) which really prooved to me that those book were crap. A lot of things have to happen before I like a Lando-plotline better than one about Luke, or Han, or about anybody. Still, I began a fic called 'Lando's Folly' just because it was something different and rather liked it. I think the autor has been eaten by DRL by now. All in all, I'd say I usually ignore and/or avoid him. shrugs -----signature----- Padawan owned by Corellian_Ale Master of CloneCaptainRex. Proud FanFic Master of Darth_Sathanos Why so serious? Master of baritonejedi
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