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Topic:
The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - 12/11 - disc. Jabba)
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MsLanna
Title: CR GSFF Central
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
8/22/07 8:20am
Subject:
RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - 8/22 - disc. Hard-boiled fic)
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 Concerning me, it could also mean Pathetic IQ
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Corran_Fett
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
8/22/07 10:30am
Subject:
RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - 8/22 - disc. Hard-boiled fic)
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MsLanna posted:
what exactly does 'hard-boiled' refer to? The tone? The worldview behind it? The way the things in the story work? Is it an attitude? 
My guess would be that it refers to Inspector Tequila's destructive attitude in Hard Boiled (John Woo movie), but then again, I've never seen that movie... 
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brodiew
Registered:
Oct '05
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Date Posted:
8/22/07 10:45am
Subject:
RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - 8/22 - disc. Hard-boiled fic)
- Date Edited:
8/22/07 12:07pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
brodiew
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Hard boiled usually denotes criminals, femme fatales (devious use of sexuality), gritty dirty settings, morally abiguous heroes, and a puzzle that is not so easy to solve. To sum it up: crime, without the sugar coating.
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Katana_Geldar
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
8/22/07 5:29pm
Subject:
RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - 8/22 - disc. Hard-boiled fic)
- Date Edited:
8/22/07 5:30pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Katana_Geldar
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Hard-boiled is usually gritty, dirty and violent. There's sex, drugs, (no rock'n'roll usually) and it is usually set in the underworld.
Hardboiled is no Poirot or Sherlock Holmes story.
And remember Wikipedia is your friend Especially for generic stuff
How did I approach hard-boiled in the SW style? Well, I based it on Coruscant and it's not that hard to research what the underworld there is like, you need look no further than Vos Gesal Street
Of course there's also places like the Wheel, Nar Shaddaa Ord Mantell and Kessel.
One thing though that hardboiled usually includes is law enforcement, even if the cops are complete dunderheads (and they should be, FTR  ). This is where the Wookiee really takes off, you need to do your research!
The_Face, I read Galaxy Noir last night, and while it's good you couldn't call it hard-boiled. Hardboiled isn't epic or even heroic.
Take a look at the SEventh Star if you want a quick example of hardboiled, Jali's not a PI (yet!) but he's an ex-cop and he has a nose for trouble.
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Luton_Plunder
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
8/22/07 6:48pm
Subject:
RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - 8/22 - disc. Hard-boiled fic)
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Ahh, hard-boiled P.I fiction.
"As soon as she walked into my office I could tell she was trouble."
It's an area you've gotta be careful with IMO. There's an enormous potential to take it into horribly cliched territory - see above quote for an example - and it can be hard to make your characters likeable. Maybe that's just me, however, because I work primarily through dialogue and the Hard Boiled P.I (HBPI?) is generally a loner who monologues to himself.
That said, I love this genre for its grittiness and fast-pace. I find typically that the story will have twists and turns that keep everything moving so fast that you forget to get bored. Keeping things a mystery from the reader is a hard line to walk, too. Most readers are savvy enough to know that the prime suspect is never the man who committed the crime, so you've gotta be very layered.
Katana posted:
Hardboiled isn't epic or even heroic.
Hm, I agree that it isn't epic. But I think I'd have to take issue with the claim that it isn't heroic. They might not ride a white horse and kill hundreds of thousands of orcs, but generally they're trying to right wrongs. More importantly, they are nearly always (nearly always) trying to overcome personal demons during the course of the story. It doesn't matter if the story ends with them saving the day or being stabbed in the back, if they overcome their own demons then the story is heroic.
I might not be making that point very well. I'll try and find an example to illustrate it and be back
I was going through my stories to see what does and does not make them hard boiled fiction. While they aren't epic and deal with detectives who enforce the law in very unorthodox ways, they also involve quite a bit of procedure and a strong subtext of trust and family. Not to mention some humour. These things are not native to the hard boiled sub-genre. Like I said earlier, the HBPI is generally a loner and can trust no-one.
Anyway, just some thoughts. Great to have the Seedy Side back to its old seedy self again
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Katana_Geldar
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
8/22/07 7:48pm
Subject:
RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - 8/22 - disc. Hard-boiled fic)
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I agree there are degrees of being heroic, what I meant was there was less likely to be a degree of altruism, say with a Jedi for example.
You do have to watch out for cliche's though, it's such an easy trap to fall into.
There are some cliches that you can get away with though.
The detective being kidnapped (happened more than once to Marlow IIRC)
The drugged-up or drunk female giving the detective evidence and later being found dead in her bed.
The police basically telling him to 'clear off'
And there are bars, and cafes
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Onoto
Title: Risk Host
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
8/22/07 8:47pm
Subject:
RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - 8/22 - disc. Hard-boiled fic)
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Ah, but those of us who lean towards comedy can use those cliches for wonderful effect. Dramatic writers have a much harder time using them, but it can be done. As they say, "A classic is a well-done cliche."
Well, actually, I don't know if anyone says that. But it sounds great, don't it?
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Luton_Plunder
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
8/22/07 10:54pm
Subject:
RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - 8/22 - disc. Hard-boiled fic)
- Date Edited:
8/22/07 10:57pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Luton_Plunder
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Onoto posted:
A classic is a well-done cliche.
Heck, I'm on board with that 
Katana posted:
I agree there are degrees of being heroic, what I meant was there was less likely to be a degree of altruism, say with a Jedi for example.
Ahhh yeah I get you, sorry about that. I've been writing detective fics for so long I forgot all about the kind of clear cut heroism in Jedi fics Agreed, altruism isn't such a priority to the death-stick smoking PI with burned-out morals. Unless of course there's something in it for them that isn't immediately obvious.
And regarding cliches, there's definitely some that you can get away with for sure. Alot of them are integral parts of the stories, and so transcend their cliche roots. All the ones you mentioned are examples of that. I think you mentioned earlier that law enforcement should be portrayed as bumbling and inept - that's another one that's not only accepted but expected. There's a plethora of others, too. The protagonist almost always has nothing to lose or loses everything during the course of the narrative. There are people they'll mistake for allies that turn out to be double-agents. Not cliches but hallmarks of the genre
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Katana_Geldar
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
8/22/07 11:12pm
Subject:
RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - 8/22 - disc. Hard-boiled fic)
- Date Edited:
8/22/07 11:15pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Katana_Geldar
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The problem is that you don't want to write them with a hu8ge holobanner on them tjat states they are a cliche-style character.
Like the femme fatale who usually turns out to be deceptive.
It's actually quite strange, but a lot of the elements of hardboiled that I put into my fic happened before I did some actual research on it.
I have to confess though that I never finished Farewell My Lovely, it was an optional text when I did first year English and I chose to do Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? instead.
More on topic, what about a villian in a hardboiled. Normally there's more than one that fits the criteria but THE villian? Remember, being the villian doesn't automatically make you vader.
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brodiew
Registered:
Oct '05
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Date Posted:
8/23/07 8:04am
Subject:
RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - 8/22 - disc. Hard-boiled fic)
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Katana, used to be a huge Noir fan back in the day and still have a 60+ video collection.
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Katana_Geldar
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
8/23/07 4:13pm
Subject:
RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - 8/22 - disc. Hard-boiled fic)
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And that includes Murder, my Sweet?
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brodiew
Registered:
Oct '05
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Date Posted:
8/23/07 4:18pm
Subject:
RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - 8/22 - disc. Hard-boiled fic)
- Date Edited:
8/23/07 4:19pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
brodiew
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Oh yes, and many others. There are a couple of more that Dick Powell starred in after his song and dance career wained. He is good in both genres.
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Katana_Geldar
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
8/23/07 4:53pm
Subject:
RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - 8/22 - disc. Hard-boiled fic)
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Wish i had the time to watch more of these...
Could compile a list of hardboiled cliches? This would probably be a good resource for anyone seeking to write one.
The detective being kidnapped
The drugged-up or drunk female giving the detective evidence and later being found dead in her bed.
The police basically telling him to 'clear off'
An interrogation, usually quite aggressive
Paid 'informers' who exist to give others information
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JadeSolo
Title: NSF managing NSWFF
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
8/23/07 5:07pm
Subject:
RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - 8/22 - disc. Hard-boiled fic)
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It's weird that this topic pops up just after I finished reading The Big Sleep, watching it for the nth time, and starting to read L.A. Confidential after watching it for the nth time.
I love hard-boiled noir type fiction because I love Humphrey Bogart. 
Re: the heroic stuff - I do think you'll find heroic acts in hard-boiled fiction, but 1) they may not always come from the main characters; 2) they're offset by dirty acts.
Examples:
1) "Double Indemnity" - to me there's only one person who commits truly good acts, and that's Edward G. Robinson as Fred MacMurray's boss. You don't see him a lot, but MacMurray's monologue throughout the film is a confession to Robinson, and I think that's significant.
2) In "L.A. Confidential", Officer Bud White has a thing for helping abused women. So that makes him a very heroic guy. But at the same time he's a very violent man who often doesn't give a second thought to beating a suspect into submission. Ed Exley wants to help people and make a difference, but he's so stuck on following the rules that he'll step all over people.
Throw this stuff into Star Wars, and you most likely won't get a Jedi unless it's someone like Mace Windu who walks on the darker side of life. You're more likely to get a pre-Rebellion Han Solo, or a Lando, or bounty hunters. But you can also have people who work within the system - doesn't always have to be the P.I. sort. For instance, a Rebel officer has a soft spot for a woman who turns out to be an Imperial informant. Or an Imperial investigator looking into the death of a local gangster with ties to the government.
To me the important thing to remember is that the heroes aren't going to be saints. They'll have some very hard edges. And the villains, as someone said before, aren't going to be Vader. They'll kill and manipulate others to get their hands on power, drugs, or a statue of a bird, and they may not have an redeeming qualities, but they still won't be evil incarnate.
And that's my schpiel for tonight.
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Katana_Geldar
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
8/23/07 5:19pm
Subject:
RE: The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - 8/22 - disc. Hard-boiled fic)
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There's people like Quinlan Vos
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