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Topic:
CRPA Index 3.1 - You may post now - and that is a fact. *WARNING: LOTF SPOILERS INSIDE*
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Valley_Lord
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
5/25 5:03pm
Subject:
RE: CRPA Index 3.1 - You may post now - and that is a fact. *WARNING: LOTF SPOILERS INSIDE*
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I don't like it because Del Ray pandered to the standard American prejudice toward non standard allign characters. Once again, people who do not follow the mainstream(Jacen) become the prime evil in a manachean struggle between good and evil. All of LOTF just ruined all the progressive philosophical moves that they made in NJO.
There is no such thing as evil, the concept of evil exists to strengthen failing social constructs(Religeon of any sort) and National association(Bush jr.'s 'Axis of Evil'). It merely exists to give 'good' people an excuse for reprehensible actions. (If he did that he's evil)
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Alexis_Wingstar
Registered:
Sep '06
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Date Posted:
5/25 5:14pm
Subject:
RE: CRPA Index 3.1 - You may post now - and that is a fact. *WARNING: LOTF SPOILERS INSIDE*
- Date Edited:
5/25 8:18pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Alexis_Wingstar
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Um, the concept of good and evil predates the United States.
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Alexis_Wingstar
Registered:
Sep '06
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Date Posted:
5/25 8:17pm
Subject:
RE: CRPA Index 3.1 - You may post now - and that is a fact. *WARNING: LOTF SPOILERS INSIDE*
- Date Edited:
5/25 8:17pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Alexis_Wingstar
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Nothing to see here, move on. 
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"Change. It can be good. It can be bad. It can be expected or come as a thief in the night. Invited or not, it always comes."
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NaNoWriMo participant 2nd year in a row.
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RK_Striker_JK_5
Registered:
Jul '03
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Date Posted:
5/25 8:24pm
Subject:
RE: CRPA Index 3.1 - You may post now - and that is a fact. *WARNING: LOTF SPOILERS INSIDE*
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Valley_Lord posted:
I don't like it because Del Ray pandered to the standard American prejudice toward non standard allign characters. Once again, people who do not follow the mainstream(Jacen) become the prime evil in a manachean struggle between good and evil. All of LOTF just ruined all the progressive philosophical moves that they made in NJO.
There is no such thing as evil, the concept of evil exists to strengthen failing social constructs(Religeon of any sort) and National association(Bush jr.'s 'Axis of Evil'). It merely exists to give 'good' people an excuse for reprehensible actions. (If he did that he's evil)
I've experienced evil in my life. It exists. It's more than just a concept. I have met evil people. No evil has used as more of an excuse for evil acts, I've seen.
And in SW, it's tangible. There is a Dark Side. Everyone who's tried the no Dark Side philosophy has gone nuts and... Fallen. 25,000 years of evidence in it. It exists.
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Alexis_Wingstar
Registered:
Sep '06
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Date Posted:
5/25 8:38pm
Subject:
RE: CRPA Index 3.1 - You may post now - and that is a fact. *WARNING: LOTF SPOILERS INSIDE*
- Date Edited:
5/25 8:39pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Alexis_Wingstar
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I actually think there is evil as well, but not so sure in the GFFA the Force itself has an evil side. I think part of what was meant was that the evil is within the user, not the Force. The "dark side" is the euphemism for letting selfishness, anger, fear and/or hatred lead your actions. There is more I'd like to say on this, but right now I'm too tired to word it correctly.
From personal experience, I know evil does exist in RL, too.
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"Change. It can be good. It can be bad. It can be expected or come as a thief in the night. Invited or not, it always comes."
~Koria
"Tender Shadows", co-written w/ The Musical Jedi
Padawan to DarthIshtar
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Darkwriter
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
5/26 7:31pm
Subject:
RE: CRPA Index 3.1 - You may post now - and that is a fact. *WARNING: LOTF SPOILERS INSIDE*
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Why do we always come back to this?
Here's my opinion: it's true, there is no such thing as an evil person. But evil does exsist, just not in a tangible way. Evil is more like the larger form of temptation. It's true, as well, that evil is largely a religious concept. At least, it's a theory. Evil is largely associated with Satan; I can see how that can be controversal.
So lets move on. I won't use the word evil, because that's not really what the series was about. I don't think anyone really thought that Jacen was evil. Recall, they kept saying how awful it was that Jacen had gotten so bad, and that nobody was there to catch him before he fell. They just said, "What he's doing is hurting the galaxy and he needs to be stopped." That's what Jaina learned in Revelation. The question is, "Is what he's doing justified? And at one point does that justification become delusion?" In the beginning, Jacen's justification was fine, but as he progressed his rational morphed into something more insidious. Eventually, he had to be stopped.
That's why society has guidelines for moral behavior---partly for religous purposes, but also because you need to draw a line somewhere. Jacen's rational didn't become evil...it became unacceptable.
However, I don't necesarily agree that ALL of the NJO philosphies have been abolished. Actually, one of Vergere's prominent teachings still exist in the Jedi Order: Jacen must pay the consequences for his actions. LOTF really FEELS like Star Wars books to me---the concept behind Star Wars has always been about the concept of redemtion, and of the struggle between light and dark.
p.s. Valley_Lord, what do you mean by "non standard allign characters"? Sorry, can you give me an example?
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Valley_Lord
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
5/28 4:51pm
Subject:
RE: CRPA Index 3.1 - You may post now - and that is a fact. *WARNING: LOTF SPOILERS INSIDE*
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I am not disputing the concept of good or evil, though I do not subject myself to intangible concepts. I am however, disputing the use of 'good' or 'evil' as factual evidence. evil is subjective, and dependant on someone's viewpoint.
The concept of 'evil' that Americans, Europeans and christians in the remaining part of the world beleive in, is predicated on the beleive that all persons have an innate evil, that there is an 'evil' factor in us all. But a person's actions are based on their past, what is available, and a standard risk vs reward scenario. No one, not even Hitler, killed people for the fun of it, or just because they could. Those who do, are the mentally ill we call serial killers.
Furthermore, using Star Wars history does not apply because it is the ficticious vision George Lucas created, which was based on his Jewish upbringing and youth spent in a predominantly christian America.
What I meant by 'non-standard allign characters' would be the lone wolfs, the mercenaries, the unscrupulous. The standard allignments of a stereotypical story are merely good, evil, nuetral(albeit with a strong or evil inclination) and passive uninvolvement(ie not important to a story, but are there). They are always based on a philosphical assumption of good or evil allignments, but in real life, people kill because of passion or money, or fear. Jacen is a non standard alligned character because he has no true allignment.
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Darkwriter
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
5/29 3:59pm
Subject:
RE: CRPA Index 3.1 - You may post now - and that is a fact. *WARNING: LOTF SPOILERS INSIDE*
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George Lucas is Jewish?!
So...what are you so upset about? Is it that the series portrayed Jacen, a "non-standard align character," as an evil figure? Or are you even upset about it? I feel like this conversation has been somewhat morphed, and we have tangented (if that's even a word) from that point we started at.
I had a really profound question to add...but I lost it.
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Valley_Lord
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
5/30 2:27pm
Subject:
RE: CRPA Index 3.1 - You may post now - and that is a fact. *WARNING: LOTF SPOILERS INSIDE*
- Date Edited:
5/30 2:40pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Valley_Lord
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I'm annoyed because after a lot of promising progress they made with NJO and Dark Nest, they reverted to the standard good, evil and no other stance. Characters are suddenly wither good, or evil, though its not quite clear which. secondly, they took a character that was highly empathic and moraled, and turned him into a hard logic and ruthless character. Somehow they took 6 minus 6 and came up with negative 60.
Sorry, I mixed Lucas and Speilberg up for a moment, Lucas was actually a Methodist, and was one while he wrote the original screenplay for Star Wars, though he currently describes himself as a Buddhist Methodist. All of which is irrelevent except for the impact it has on his views of morality, which he consciously, or reflexively imparted on Star Wars in film.
To get back on topic, I firmly do not beleive in any form of evil, evil as a concept is an outside force that drives a person and absolves a person of responsibility for their actions.
We constantly label Adolf Hitler as an evil, insane, or afflicted by Syphillus(of which there is actual evidence for), not because his actions were so disgusting and incomprehensible, but because we refuse to beleive that we, ourselves could do such a thing in the situation he created.
We call people or regimes evil because it makes us more confortable to attack or kill them, or to view their actions and say you can't possible have done the same because you yourself are 'good'.
This is the reason I object to the radical reversal of philosophy in AU.
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Earthknight
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
5/30 6:01pm
Subject:
RE: CRPA Index 3.1 - You may post now - and that is a fact. *WARNING: LOTF SPOILERS INSIDE*
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No, I label Hitler that because of his actions.
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obsessedwithSW
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/30 6:37pm
Subject:
RE: CRPA Index 3.1 - You may post now - and that is a fact. *WARNING: LOTF SPOILERS INSIDE*
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Hey any of you J/TK writers planning on writing the missing scene from Invincible from where Jacen warns TK to her escape?
I really wished Denning had addressed it - gave the whole possiblity of redemption even if it was DeFacto. Actually you could follow TK through to where she decides to turn over Allana to Han and Leia
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Valley_Lord
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
5/30 7:13pm
Subject:
RE: CRPA Index 3.1 - You may post now - and that is a fact. *WARNING: LOTF SPOILERS INSIDE*
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Calling someone evil absolves them of responsibility for their actions, therefor I don't consider Hitler Evil, merely a criminal of the highest order.
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Earthknight
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
5/30 9:22pm
Subject:
RE: CRPA Index 3.1 - You may post now - and that is a fact. *WARNING: LOTF SPOILERS INSIDE*
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Fair enough.
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-Tenel-Ka-
Registered:
Apr '02
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Date Posted:
5/31 3:22pm
Subject:
RE: CRPA Index 3.1 - You may post now - and that is a fact. *WARNING: LOTF SPOILERS INSIDE*
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obsessedwithSW posted:
Hey any of you J/TK writers planning on writing the missing scene from Invincible from where Jacen warns TK to her escape?
I really wished Denning had addressed it - gave the whole possiblity of redemption even if it was DeFacto. Actually you could follow TK through to where she decides to turn over Allana to Han and Leia
I was actually thinking of writing a sort of missing scene about her thoughts after everything happens and how it happened (and how she feels concerning Jacen, Isolder, Han/Leia and Allana) -- hopefully I can get that done soon because the idea is seriously gnawing on my brain! 
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obsessedwithSW
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/31 7:06pm
Subject:
RE: CRPA Index 3.1 - You may post now - and that is a fact. *WARNING: LOTF SPOILERS INSIDE*
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Tenel-Ka if you write it send me a pm. It has been totally bugging me and I need closure. Unfortunately I dont feel comfortable writing that ship myself. I am more of a before or saga era writer.
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