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Topic:
**Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion question 11-17-08
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divapilot
Registered:
Nov '05
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Date Posted:
8/21 6:27am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question 8-18-08
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I read once that F. Scott Fitzgerald had origninally written The Great Gatsby in third person, then went back and inserted the narrator, Nick Carroway, and made it first person. So every writer struggles with this.
I guess the bottom line is you have to write in the POV that works best for your particular story.
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Golden_Jedi
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
8/21 7:16am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question 8-18-08
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Hey, how's everybody? I'm back after a few busy weeks, which included a 5-day full-time course and a weekend in Middle Earth  ...
Hm, dialogue... It was my main worry when I started writing fanfic, especially because English is not my first language. My method to overcome that was to do a little research, so one of the first thing I did was to catch the OT novelizations and take notes about which words and typical phrases Han used, Luke used, etc... Then I watched the movies a lot with the English captions on, to catch on the rythm of the dialogue. I guess everything payed off in the end and one of my biggest surprises was when comments like "I could hear Harrison and Carrie's voice" started to appear  .
I still pay a lot of attention to dialogue and I agree that sometimes a good line of dialogue can tell more than a lot of description. I also try to suplement the actual dialogue with face expressions and body language, which are often more expressive than the words itself.
POV. I don't think much of POV, really, but I prefer thrid person limited and first person, and sometimes I alternate between the two in the same story. I don't like the omniscient third mainly because I (as a reader) don't like to be told everything at once, and as a writer I have more fun giving the reader bits and scraps in such a way that at some point they'll be able to form the whole picture all by themselves. Besides, I like a lot to get 'inside' the character's head and try to see what's happening through their eyes.
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The country is that place where chickens walk around uncooked - Julio Cortázar Unexpected Blossom http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28693266 Sailing Little Boats http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28747916
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Jedi_Emeritus
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
8/21 10:21am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question 8-18-08
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Traditionally, I have always written in third person limited, because I feel it is the best way to tell a coherent and interesting story, which does not give too much away at once. In my own writing, I find omniscient to be a lazy way of telling the story - when I first started out I had to force myself to keep each section from the viewpoint of a single character as I would sometimes wander into omniscient territory. I no longer struggle with that as I have trained myself to write from the limited perspective.
As for first person, I never used to like it at all. It always seemed too limited to me and often a story written in first did not interest me. Recently, however, I have read a few books which have forced me to reconsider my position. First person can be a good way to keep the reader guessing, because you can do all sorts of things to get the reader to question what they are reading. Among other things, you can play with the narrator and insert little discrepancies to keep the reader guessing.
I think some day I may try my hand at it.
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"The road to hell is paved with adverbs." - Stephen King There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.' Take My Hand: http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/28300611/
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Valairy_Scot
Title: PT Rewrite Winner
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
8/21 12:41pm
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question 8-18-08
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Disdained yes. Incorrect - well, depends on who you ask. I think that if 3rd person omniscent works (as in you don't get confused as to which person you are talking about), then I don't really see the need to change it into 3rd person limited. I'm only aware of it because I was told in some of the resource threads that it was disdained plus the Archives personnel (sp?) don't seem to like it.
Diane, the "incorrect" referred to my new understanding that true "omniscent" is inside NO ONE's head. "My" version of 3rd Om was inside EVERYONE's head, alternately and in a flowing/non-confusing manner (you have to really watch your pronouns and stuff to avoid confusion).
Take this short example:
“And are about to collapse right back off of them,” Ki chided, steadying the man and his eyes showing his worry. “Really, Obi-Wan, sometimes I think you’re too stubborn for your own good.”
Obi-Wan sent a piercing gaze at his fellow Council member, any pretense at joking set aside. “Just what do you think allowed me to survive…everything – everything she did to me?” He swallowed hard and stared at his hands, suddenly at a loss for words; he finally whispered in a hoarse whisper that horrified Ki-Adi-Mundi, “I came close…so close…to embracing the Darkness in a futile attempt to escape the pain I was in. I still don’t understand … how…I broke free – or if I entirely did. Can you tell me – do you sense – any darkness lingering within me?”
He raised suddenly haunted eyes to meet the concerned eyes gazing back at him, eyes that he knew the Council member had never before seen in his colleague.
Ki-Adi-Mundi could sense very little of his fellow Jedi’s Force presence, so muted it was, yet the Force itself was as bright as ever around the man. It was the man who failed to shine as usual within it. Finally, he murmured, “I sense exhaustion and much confusion within you Obi-Wan – and far too much pain. Little else, my friend, but the Force still wraps around you and does not shy away. You need to heal now, not worry.”
We start off in Obi-Wan's head (more obvious if you read the entire chapter than is visible here).
1st Paragraph: Note that from Obi-Wan's POV, Ki's eyes were worried.
2nd Paragraph: "he finally whispered in a hoarse whisper that horrified Ki-Adi-Mundi" should be "he finally whispered in a hoarse whisper that seemed to horrify Ki-Adi-Mundi" to truly indicate it was Obi-Wan's perception that Mundi was horrified.
While writing this post it hit me that this paragraph seems more Mundi's POV.
3rd Paragraph: back to (still?) Obi-Wan's POV.
4th Paragraph: Mundi's POV
Now, before posting that chapter, I rewrote the second paragraph to Obi's POV by changing the wording to show that Obi-Wan was aware that Mundi hadn't seen this look in Obi-Wan. The long-forgotten original was something like: He raised suddenly haunted eyes, eyes that Ki-Adi-Mundi had never before seen.
See, that "original" was switching to Mundi's POV (suddenly? not suddenly?)
Now, I kept the subtle shift to Mundi's POV with: Ki-Adi-Mundi could sense very little of his fellow Jedi’s Force presence, so muted it was, yet the Force itself was as bright as ever around the man. It was the man who failed to shine as usual within it.
That is clearly INSIDE Mundi's head, hence a POV switch, but not a true 3rd Omn since 3rd Omn is inside no one's head.
That's what I'm calling an incorrect 3rd Omn. If anything, it's a switching 3rd LTD but within the space or two of a paragraph.
Where I'm confused is how/when allowable is this? Personally, I used to think, before I got so self-aware and self-conscious about it that I indicated the transitions well and no one was confused. Reading the above I think I made the original worse.
Some of the earlier chapters in this story were clearly this incorrect 3rd whatever and I'm more aware of it now and have considering rewriting those chapters to 3rd LTD - but I like the shifts.
Do my readers? Haven't a clue if they've noticed and kept silent, or what.
I've about given up on trying to get anything into the archives anyway - it's too hard to get 2 beta's and I don't think any of my stuff stands out enough to meet qualifications. <shrugs>
Boy, analyzing your own stuff can make one cringe sometimes. 
So a true 3rd LTD would be like (Obi-Wan's POV):
“And are about to collapse right back off of them,” Ki chided, steadying the man and his eyes showing his worry. “Really, Obi-Wan, sometimes I think you’re too stubborn for your own good.”
Obi-Wan sent a piercing gaze at his fellow Council member, any pretense at joking set aside. “Just what do you think allowed me to survive…everything – everything she did to me?” He swallowed hard and stared at his hands, suddenly at a loss for words; he finally whispered in a hoarse whisper that seemed to horrify Ki-Adi-Mundi, “I came close…so close…to embracing the Darkness in a futile attempt to escape the pain I was in. I still don’t understand … how…I broke free – or if I entirely did. Can you tell me – do you sense – any darkness lingering within me?”
He raised suddenly haunted eyes to meet the concerned eyes gazing back at him, eyes that he knew the Council member had never before seen in his colleague.
He wondered what Ki-Adi-Mundi could sense of his fellow Jedi’s Force presence, for it seemed so muted to his own perceptions.
Finally, Ki murmured, “I sense exhaustion and much confusion within you Obi-Wan – and far too much pain. Little else, my friend, but the Force still wraps around you and does not shy away. The Force still shines as brightly around you. You need to heal now, not worry.”
Hey, that's really MUCH better for a quick rewrite!
From Mundi's POV:
“And are about to collapse right back off of them,” Ki chided, steadying the man and his eyes showing his worry. “Really, Obi-Wan, sometimes I think you’re too stubborn for your own good.”
Obi-Wan sent a piercing gaze at his fellow Council member, any pretense at joking set aside. “Just what do you think allowed me to survive…everything – everything she did to me?” He swallowed hard and stared at his hands, suddenly at a loss for words; he finally whispered in a hoarse whisper that horrified Ki-Adi-Mundi, “I came close…so close…to embracing the Darkness in a futile attempt to escape the pain I was in. I still don’t understand … how…I broke free – or if I entirely did. Can you tell me – do you sense – any darkness lingering within me?”
He raised suddenly haunted eyes to meet the concerned eyes gazing back at him, eyes that the Council member had never before seen in his colleague.
Ki-Adi-Mundi could sense very little of his fellow Jedi’s Force presence, so muted it was, yet the Force itself was as bright as ever around the man. It was the man who failed to shine as usual within it. Finally, he murmured, “I sense exhaustion and much confusion within you Obi-Wan – and far too much pain. Little else, my friend, but the Force still wraps around you and does not shy away. You need to heal now, not worry.”
Gosh, maybe I should seriously consider rewriting a lot of that story.
Oh, as to 2nd POV - I've used it as intro once to a story - it was a great way to get the reader questioning just what was going on and to whom (it was a Jedi trial involving have to possibly kill someone and put the reader right there in the middle of the action - it was live action and then after a scene break we realize it was a trial, all within the character's mind, and we have stepped back enough to see it for what it was).
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http://boards.theforce.net/fan_fiction_resource/b10304/25405090/p3/?52 Prolific Author thread: list & links there. Muse fueled by coffee. Often AWOL despite frequent sipping. Writes on inspiration, not a schedule. Proud master of several padawans
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dianethx
Registered:
Mar '02
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Date Posted:
8/21 3:25pm
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question 8-18-08
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LOL, Val. I've been rewriting Betrayal - yes all 350 pages of it to conform to 3rd person limited. It's been interesting and sometimes very creative use of time but mostly I liked it better when it was going from head to head. I know it's not 'correct' but I did like it better that way. Since I hope someday, maybe, to get it into the Archives, maybe, I figured I'd fix it up first before tormenting my poor future beta readers.
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Betrayal - http://boards.theforce.net/s/b1/10935143 updated 9/22/08 Fragments of Illusion- http://boards.theforce.net/bts/b10475/28456473 updated 11/20/08 jedidas3's Master At last - Hope for our country
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TKeira_Lea
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
8/21 5:52pm
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question 8-18-08
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Just to put my two cents in on POV as a Reviewer at the Archive.
In writing, as in many artistic forms of expression, there are always perceived 'correct' ways to do things, but it isn't necessarily 'incorrect' to break the rules.
As Stover pointed out at a C3 panel, a writer has to know the rules to break the rules. Take for instance Stover's use of one word sentences. A sentence is supposed to have a noun and a verb, but he gets away with only using one word.
Third Person limited is a form of POV. When I consider POV I look to see what point of view a majority of the story is told from. Generally, a writer is looking from behind one character's eyes - a limited perspective. The problem becomes when the view is limited then pops into another character's mind for a sentence, paragraph, page, then back to the original character's perspective. This happens because the author needs to tell the reader something but can't from the original viewpoint's perspective. I have to admit early in my writing it was hard for me to recognize this.
Honestly, a lot of people don't even notice POV jumps when they read, and there is published fiction riddled with it (not saying that makes it correct). The reason it's considered "incorrect" is that the head jumping is considered a weakness. Instead of figuring out how to relay the story from one character's perspective there is a little cheat to insert a bit of info.
Diane, it's truly not disdain from the Archive. Just like some people don't notice its versus it's when they read, many don't see the headjump, but that doesn't make it correct. (watch me screw an it's/its up in this post too  )
As a piece of advice to people who worry about POV. If it's little head jumps once in a while those are easy to fix. If it's more than here or there, often it's just impossible to rework to a satisfactory point. The writer literally has to go back to the beginning of a scene and determine a new single perspective to tell the scene from. That kind of rewriting can tear down the enjoyment of the storytelling for the writer. I almost think it's more beneficial to find the errors so you recognize them as a writer and move forward with writing something new. Just love the writing for the good stuff. Truly POV has to be considered before writing one word of a scene or it's easy to get trapped needing a head jump to make a scene work.
Relating it from a personal level, my first story Echoes of the Past has POV shifts and that makes it weak on one level, but I still love the story for the things I did pretty well as a new writer.
As far as simply denoting POV changes by *** or some type of mark, that's always a good idea to make it clear to the reader. Just be careful of doing that too often. Five *** in a page scene can become distracting. If you've written a whole five page scene, and need one paragraph of a new character's perspective ask yourself if you can fit that into the other perspective or if it is necessary to the story at all.
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dianethx
Registered:
Mar '02
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Date Posted:
8/21 6:46pm
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question 8-18-08
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Sorry, TKL, I didn't mean to imply that it was disdain from the Archive personnel but rather from some threads in Resource. I do understand that the Archives wants to have the very best and that means getting it correct. But as a writer that has since learned to write in 3rd person limited (I had a really hard time learning, too), I sometimes still find it easier and more satisying to do the occasional head jump.
And yes, profic is riddled with head jumping, sometimes glaringly so!
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Betrayal - http://boards.theforce.net/s/b1/10935143 updated 9/22/08 Fragments of Illusion- http://boards.theforce.net/bts/b10475/28456473 updated 11/20/08 jedidas3's Master At last - Hope for our country
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ardavenport
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
8/21 9:18pm
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question 8-18-08
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I've been noticing head-jumping in pro-fic books and it is correct writing in the books I've been reading. I recall one case where the narrative was following the action, like a camera, and it was very clear whose thoughts you were with. It was a very effective and readable style.
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Links to all fics -- http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=25405090&brd=10304&start=26223917 The Heart of the Jedi -- http://boards.theforce.net/b/b1/26013327 ---- Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, JA and everything you wanted to know about lightsabers
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divapilot
Registered:
Nov '05
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Date Posted:
8/22 3:41am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question 8-18-08
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Just an aside: Since many of my high school students are gamers, I explain third person limited as being the "over the shoulder" style of computer game character you might play, whereas third person omniscent is the "God view," or more like Sims where you can bounce from character to character whenever you want to.
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Never tell me the odds. AKL
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TKeira_Lea
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
8/22 4:09am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question 8-18-08
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ardavenport posted:
I've been noticing head-jumping in pro-fic books and it is correct writing in the books I've been reading. I recall one case where the narrative was following the action, like a camera, and it was very clear whose thoughts you were with. It was a very effective and readable style.
If it's following the action like a camera and getting info characters' thoughts then it's omniscient, not third person limited.
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Alexis_Wingstar
Registered:
Sep '06
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Date Posted:
8/22 7:48am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question 8-18-08
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As Stover pointed out at a C3 panel, a writer has to know the rules to break the rules. Take for instance Stover's use of one word sentences. A sentence is supposed to have a noun and a verb, but he gets away with only using one word.
That's a good point, TKiera_Lea. Sometimes, you have to break the rules to tell the story effectively, but to do so you have know the rules in the first place. The use of one word sentences is a good device to stress a point. It makes it more poignant.
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"Change. It can be good. It can be bad. It can be expected or come as a thief in the night. Invited or not, it always comes." ~Koria "Tender Shadows", co-written w/ The Musical Jedi "Two Peas Out of the Pod" http://www.nanowrimo.org/eng/user/205643
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UrbanJedi
Registered:
Dec '99
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Date Posted:
8/22 9:57am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question 8-18-08
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divapilot posted:
Just an aside: Since many of my high school students are gamers, I explain third person limited as being the "over the shoulder" style of computer game character you might play, whereas third person omniscent is the "God view," or more like Sims where you can bounce from character to character whenever you want to.
Why didn't I have a teacher like you in high school? That's one of the coolest things I've ever heard. Good job on you for relating to your class. We definitely need more teachers like you out there.
As I've said before, I've dabbled in 1st, 3rd Om and 3rd Limited. I've really tried to undertake the challenge of sticking to 3rd limited in my current fic, just because I think it's the most exciting for the readers. They get insight into what the characters are thinking, but also don't get the whole plot laid out on the table for them before they're ready for it. I'm really enjoying. It's a challenge not to "jump heads" but I think I'm doing ok with it.
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The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants. - Thomas Jefferson My Fic Flaspoint: http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28892000/p1/?0 I have a character who is half OC and half LFL...how mess
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TKeira_Lea
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
8/22 10:08am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question 8-18-08
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UrbanJedi posted:
I've really tried to undertake the challenge of sticking to 3rd limited in my current fic, just because I think it's the most exciting for the readers. They get insight into what the characters are thinking, but also don't get the whole plot laid out on the table for them before they're ready for it.
That is one of the reasons why SW fiction is written mostly in 3rd person limited. It gives the storyteller the ability to hide the ball and unfolding events are then surprising to the rider. In turn, the lack of omniscience gives more options to move ahead in future stories. For instance a character outside the POV may have hesitated at a situation in story #2 of a series, and the POV character may have interpretted it one way. Yet there's the whole reliability of the witness element that doesn't give the reader perspective on why the hesitation actually occured. That leaves story #8's author the ability to define the hesitation how he/she sees it.
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Valairy_Scot
Title: PT Rewrite Winner
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
8/22 10:35am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question 8-18-08
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divapilot posted:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just an aside: Since many of my high school students are gamers, I explain third person limited as being the "over the shoulder" style of computer game character you might play, whereas third person omniscent is the "God view," or more like Sims where you can bounce from character to character whenever you want to.
Am I confused? I thought 3rd LTD was INSIDE ONE character's head, not over the shoulder. Omniscent is over everyone's shoulder?
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http://boards.theforce.net/fan_fiction_resource/b10304/25405090/p3/?52 Prolific Author thread: list & links there. Muse fueled by coffee. Often AWOL despite frequent sipping. Writes on inspiration, not a schedule. Proud master of several padawans
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divapilot
Registered:
Nov '05
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Date Posted:
8/22 1:39pm
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question 8-18-08
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What I mean with the gaming analogy is that a limited view only looks from one character. You can't "become" that other character and see/feel what he feels. "Over the shoulder" is just a term that means "from one particular character's perspective." The video game's visual perspective is from an imaginary camera that is located usually over the character's shoulder. A limited POV is, as you accurately said, in that one character's mind. It's just an analogy.
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