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Topic:
**Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion question 9-02-08
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Rigil_Kent
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
5/16 11:34pm
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
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It makes one wonder if things would have truly been that bad had Luke accepted Vader's offer at Bespin.
Just sayin...
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lazykbys_left
Registered:
Feb '05
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Date Posted:
5/17 6:35am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** [in defense of Karen Traviss]
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madman007: I still question why DL used an author who hates Jedi and glorifies Mandalores.
As for why Traviss hates the Jedi:
"So . . . ." My journalist brain was whirring. I had no preconceived happy notions about Jedi. I was new in town. "This is a slave army. They're bred to age at double the rate and die young. They have no choice. And the Jedi just take them and use them as cannon fodder? No questions asked? No big moral debate?"
"You got it," said Ryan [Kaufman, LFL "continuity minder" for Traviss].
I was outraged. "And these are the good guys?"
That was the exact moment at which Star Wars moved from being a nice little earner into something I really, really wanted to write.
Jedi. The elitist [illegitimate children]! These poor bloody clones, used and discarded . . . and of course I was told about Order 66 from the start. Serves the buggers right, I thought. The spoon-bending hippies would get what they deserved for their complicity in maintaining a slave army.
- Karen Traviss, Star Wars on Trial
Does any of that seem familiar? Can you recall not agreeing with someting that happened in a story and deciding to do something about it by writing fan fiction? Traviss is blessed - or possibly cursed - in that she was (and still is) in a position to do something about it in an official LFL capacity.
I would say that her glorification of Mandalorians comes from a desire to do something for the clones. Because she couldn't do anything about their enslaved state (being a profic author, she had to stick to LFL continuity) she did what she could by giving them a rich cultural background - a family - to belong to.
BTW, I find it interesting that Mandalorian seems to be one of the most fleshed-out SW cultures available. How many fanficcers have done something similar for our creations, hmm? 
Myself, I think it's fantastic that Traviss is on the LFL writing team. She's a SF writer who wasn't head-over-heels with SW to begin with. She offers what appears to be a unique viewpoint to the GFFA, and for that I am grateful.
- lazy
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Etain
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
5/17 6:49am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
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I'm currently reading the RC books and am still looking for the Jedi-hate. I was expecting it from page one, and the faithul adoration the clones showed for the Jedi hit me rather hard.
Since I don't read NJO and beyond, I can't comment on that.
And I like the clones. I didn't think much about them, actually. But Traviss does have a point with the 'slave' army. It's a pov I can understand, and will happily read about.
Jedi, I often don't understand them. 
For justice, I might have to add that i never liked the OJO and thought they were a bunch of crazy old men from Day 1. 
I am not sure about the Mando thing. I can understand that it is about the only thing you can give a clone, but that doesn't mean you have to agree they should have it. Or that it should be so prominent. Still, they were cloned from a Mando, gone dar'manda or not.
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lazykbys_left
Registered:
Feb '05
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Date Posted:
5/17 7:18am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** [in defence of Mando abundancy]
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Etain: I'm currently reading the RC books and am still looking for the Jedi-hate. I was expecting it from page one, and the faithul adoration the clones showed for the Jedi hit me rather hard.
I would say the clones' brainwashing makes it all the more tragic. 
I don't recall any blatant Jedi-hate until True Colors, actually. Besides, a good author will try to keep her biases as low-key as possible. I'm a bit worried that Traviss will go overboard in the next RC book, Order 66, though . . .
I am not sure about the Mando thing. I can understand that it is about the only thing you can give a clone, but that doesn't mean you have to agree they should have it. Or that it should be so prominent.
I agree with you, but it's pretty much inevitable from an in-universe perspective.
The Kaminoans didn't care, but they needed trainers for the clones. They told Jango to find such trainers because he was already on retainer. Jango brought in the Mandos because he could trust them to do a thorough job. And from what I can tell, being a Mandalorian is a religious thing in that, if you ain't raised Mando, your soul is lost.
Since the RC books are in 3rd POV limited, I don't see how Mandalorian culture can not be prominent in them. This spills over a little into Traviss's LotF books - well, maybe a lot - which is understandable, IMO.
- lazy
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dianethx
Registered:
Mar '02
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Date Posted:
5/17 7:26am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
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However, I completely disagree with Traviss's take on the Jedi being the ones using the clones as cannon fodder. It's the Republic and mostly Sidious who is responsible, not the Jedi. They (the Jedi) are pretty much trapped into their circumstances - plus they've been brainwashed into doing what the Republic is telling them - according to their mandate. And they are under the Judicial branch of the government, so it is their responsibility to defend the Republic.
That isn't an excuse for Jedi hatred, though. Pity maybe, exasperation certainly but blaming the Jedi for doing what they think is right for the Republic, no.
They are the generals in the war, and drafted generals at that. Sidious and the Sith are to blame and yet the Jedi are the ones to pay.
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Etain
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
5/17 7:38am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
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dianethx posted:
They are the generals in the war, and drafted generals at that. Sidious and the Sith are to blame and yet the Jedi are the ones to pay.
Which is something that only works for us, out-univerese, I think. AFAIK, nobody knows about Sidious and Palps, so nobody can connect them either.
I can understand the dilemma of the Jedi, too. They have to protect the Republic and they have nothing else. Maybe tehy would have provided for the clones better, if they had had more time?
The clones are a nasty moral disaster.
But if I had to side, I'd go subcaninophile any second.
I foud it espeacilly sad, that they think of themselves as commodities. Not that they kept it up for long. 
Am not through True Colors yet, might fins jedi-hate still. But with Etain and Jusik in their boat, it should be more a thing against the establishment not the individualy. Too bad that the Jedi get brainwashed, too, to become established.
Oder 66, I am looking forward to mayhem there. Dead and destruction on both sides. I hope to get it. If the Squads and their rag-tag all get out of it alive, I will probably be rahter dissapointed. 
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Rigil_Kent
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
5/17 8:06am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
- Date Edited:
5/17 8:16am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Rigil_Kent
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lazykbys_left posted:
I would say that her glorification of Mandalorians comes from a desire to do something for the clones. Because she couldn't do anything about their enslaved state (being a profic author, she had to stick to LFL continuity) she did what she could by giving them a rich cultural background - a family - to belong to.
BTW, I find it interesting that Mandalorian seems to be one of the most fleshed-out SW cultures available. How many fanficcers have done something similar for our creations, hmm?
The problem is IMO that this "fleshing out" of the Mandos comes at the expense of Luke's Jedi Order which look to be all either incompetent or flat out evil when viewed through the prism of her worldview. No one in his Order was in a position of authority during the Clone Wars and he rebuilt his Order from a blank slate, so applying her evident dislike of the Jedi to the new Order simply makes no sense. I haven't read the LOTF series (and have no intention of doing so), but I have read enough positive and negative reviews of it to have a decent idea about what's going on, and it is, IMO, blatant character assassination to write the Jedi in the way she did. Yes, the prequel-era Jedi were totally screwed up, but carrying those sins over to Luke's Order is ridiculous. In a fanfic, the glorification of the Mandos at the expense of the Main Characters would be - rightfully so, IMO - called Mary Sueism.
And don't get me started on the moral relativism she applied to Boba Fett. The guy was murdering scum who should have stayed dead.
lazykbys_left posted:
She's a SF writer who wasn't head-over-heels with SW to begin with.
I'm not sure how this is a good thing. When I read Star Wars, it's not to read someone's anti-Star Wars propaganda. I want to read it from someone who actually loves the franchise, not someone who harbors such apparent disdain for it. I don't go to movies based on a comic book as helmed by someone who doesn't like or understand the subject matter. Placing someone who evidently doesn't like the franchise in a position where she can affect its direction seems really silly and frankly a bit self-destructive to me. How many people are walking away from the franchise because of this nonsense? Yeah, there's enough people who apparently still read the books, but I'm seeing a lot of old school fans (like myself) who are so abjectly disgusted with the direction of the franchise that we aren't purchasing anything new. Take me, for example. Apart from some RPG stuff and the KOTOR comic, I haven't purchased anything new for Star Wars since the ROTS novelization because of my disgust with how Luke, Leia, Han, et. al. are being treated by the profic authors.
And based on how this LOTF series panned out, that's not likely to change any time soon.
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Etain
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
5/17 8:22am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
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I would now like to see the source, where Traviss says she doesn't like SW. 
I can see where having no clue about SW could be an advantage: you might just get a new pov on it. I think we did.  there's no guarantee, though, that people will like the new angle.
About LotF, I heard that Traviss was not alone on the character assassination-thing. Acutally, I heard that there was no character left who was written well from NJO on, depending who I listen to. That is nothing new. Some charcaters were butchered bad in earlier books and much of the gripes burn down to personal preferrence. I always LIKED Crystal Planet.
I do know why I avoid Bloodlines. I wrote my own Boba Fett and won't have profic play with him.
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Rigil_Kent
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
5/17 8:45am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
- Date Edited:
5/17 8:46am (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Rigil_Kent
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Etain posted:
I would now like to see the source, where Traviss says she doesn't like SW.
It seems - IMO anyway - to be a fait accompli based entirely around her opinion on the Jedi. The presence of the Force and the Jedi is the principal element that sets the Star Wars universe apart from other space opera settings, but the words she uses to describe these elements seemed to indicate a heavy amount of disdain. Thus, to me, it's a remarkably questionable decision to put someone who harbors such an open disdain toward the Jedi on a project where the Jedi are ostensibly the Heroes.
And I didn't mean to imply that I knew for a fact that she disliked the franchise though, looking back at my comments, it does appear that way.
Etain posted:
I can see where having no clue about SW could be an advantage: you might just get a new pov on it.
You also get loads of continuity errors because that individual isn't as aware of the franchise as they should be. Yes, it can have advantages, but there are as many if not more disadvantages inherent in that approach.
Etain posted:
About LotF, I heard that Traviss was not alone on the character assassination-thing. Acutally, I heard that there was no character left who was written well from NJO on, depending who I listen to. That is nothing new. Some charcaters were butchered bad in earlier books and much of the gripes burn down to personal preferrence. I always LIKED Crystal Planet.
Unfortunately, they've been butchering the characters since after Zahn's first trilogy, but it appears that LOTF has taken it to a new height (or low, if you will).
Put me in the category who is amazed that Lucas has let this happen to his universe. Honestly, what's the point in reading after LOTF when one needs only look to those Legacy comics to see that the universe is still on the path toward excrement? So much for Luke or Leia or Han having a positive legacy.
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lazykbys_left
Registered:
Feb '05
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Date Posted:
5/17 8:53am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** [stepping bolding into deeper much]
- Date Edited:
5/17 9:03am (3 edits total)
Edited By:
lazykbys_left
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dianethx: That isn't an excuse for Jedi hatred, though. Pity maybe, exasperation certainly but blaming the Jedi for doing what they think is right for the Republic, no.
Speaking solely on behalf of myself:
The Jedi knew the clones were ten-year-old slaves. Leading them into battle is is nothing short of obeying a criminal order. Perhaps they were brainwashed themselves, but - well . . . er . . .
*sigh*
You're probably right, diane. They were simply doing what they thought was best, as have people all throughout history. And in case you're wondering, this is not sarcasm but a weary acceptance of something I would rather not have be true.
Then again, maybe I'm just being too cynical today . . .
Rigil_Kent: When I read Star Wars, it's not to read someone's anti-Star Wars propaganda. I want to read it from someone who actually loves the franchise, not someone who harbors such apparent disdain for it.
I would like to make it plain that what Traviss writes is not anti-SW propaganda. You don't have to love the Jedi to love SW.
From Star Wars on Trial, again:
My love affair with the GFFA was cemented. Murky politics: love it, love it, love it. Moral ambiguity: bring it on. Big human issues: slavery, war, love, jealousy, poverty, misery, greed, ambition. This is the stuff that a journalist can get stuck into. Lucasfilm let me go as dark as I wanted to. They let me write a real war story about real men faced with difficult moral choices every day.
You may disagree with the way she went about doing it. That is your right. I, on the other hand, wish there were more like her.
Etain: I would now like to see the source, where Traviss says she doesn't like SW.
I have yet to see such a source, myself. I doubt it exists.
EDIT - Sorry, missed the last post.
Rigil_Kent: Honestly, what's the point in reading after LOTF when one needs only look to those Legacy comics to see that the universe is still on the path toward excrement? So much for Luke or Leia or Han having a positive legacy.
Despite the galaxy turning into snot, there are people who are trying to make it better against terrible odds. If that's not a positive legacy, what is?
- lazy
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Etain
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
5/17 8:59am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
- Date Edited:
5/17 9:12am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Etain
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fait-accompli does not count. PPOR.
Anway, from Karen Travvis.com:
4. I had to become a better writer very fast just to handle Star Wars. It's a professional challenge on a scale I'd never imagined - plotting through tough continuity, picking up existing characters, having to grapple with genuinely difficult philosophical ideas. You think I'm joking? Ask me at a con some day.
6. Writing Star Wars is the most fun I have ever had, each and every day - and I didn't know a damn thing about the SW universe before March 2004. It pushes my creativity beyond its limits. I get paid to play.
So I'd say she likes SW.
Nothing to be said against disliking pasrt of it, though. If she doesn't liek OJO Jeid, that's her thing. I don't care of the Old Order either. I don't care for a lot of things that are SW.
I can fully understand her disdain at taking the Clones and just use them because they're handy. No matter how much I understand the need to do so, I think there should have been more in the deal for them...
You also get loads of continuity erros if you know loads about SW. And you even get them if your write the TTT and suddly have Lucas retcon things. I don't think that continuity is something that should fall squarely on the shoulder of the authors.
Anyway. Traviss is aware of the problem:
There are hundreds of creatives building the GFFA every day, from comics to games to books to movies to...thousands of individual pieces of the puzzle. Despite Herculean efforts by full-time content managers, tiny glitches creep in: and there are always gaps. Events are not tied together by reality, by causality, and so there is no inevitable force that stops us doing what can't happen. We only have our memories, our brains and our databases to tie it up as logically as we can. And we have to do that every bloody hour. I might write a chapter today that will send my colleagues scurrying around to knit those "facts" into something they're creating. And they don't even know I've written it yet.
Just an exceprt, because her essay on it in her FAQ is rather long.
the problem for Sw is the usual story-telling thing: conflict= story.
And somehow it seems that the only conflict worthy of SW is the complete eclipse of the galaxy.
Oh, and you can aks Traviss about SW if you want. There's a contact-thingy on her page. So far, I always got answers. 
EDIT: Argh, must be off. Can't say how much I enjoy this, though. At least, I'm still alive and that's more than I would have gotten over at Literature. 
I'll be back.
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Jade_Pilot
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
5/17 9:38am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
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Great dialogue, guys!
Let's not forget, the Old Republic Jedi (Mace in particular) recognized their failing powers. Palpatine had so manipulated every situation, that no one (especially the Jedi) knew how far back his machinations went.
Was it ethical of the Jedi to use the clones "after the fact?" I don't know, but I do know they were in a position where they felt the darkness closing in around them. However, it was Palpatine who used the clones first and last to carry out his agenda.
The last two LOTF novels fascinated me with Boba's (and the rest of the Mando's) disdain for the Jedi. Jaina got a first hand look at that, even growing to respect them along with developing some affection at the end. Of course, that was until Boba told he he didn't care WHO died, as long as it hurt Han. Seems Boba still harbored a lot of animosity.
I know this will sound odd, but Denning did a smash up job of portraying BOTH sides in "Invincible," as opposed to Travis' clear bias. To me, making me feel for both the Mandos and the Jedi at the same time is the hallmark of a very talented writer. I think he 'out-Mando'd' Travis.
Just my 2 cents.
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dianethx
Registered:
Mar '02
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Date Posted:
5/17 11:46am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
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lazykbys_left posted:
Speaking solely on behalf of myself:
The Jedi knew the clones were ten-year-old slaves. Leading them into battle is is nothing short of obeying a criminal order. Perhaps they were brainwashed themselves, but - well . . . er . . .
*sigh*
You're probably right, diane. They were simply doing what they thought was best, as have people all throughout history. And in case you're wondering, this is not sarcasm but a weary acceptance of something I would rather not have be true.
Then again, maybe I'm just being too cynical today . . .
- lazy
I don't think of the clones as 10 years old. Yes, they were programmed as slaves but they were programmed continually (at least from the movies - I'm assuming this) and they certainly acted like adults.
As for leading them into battle, generals lead young boys of 18 into battle all the time in real life. And expect a lot of them to get killed. So I really can't fault the Jedi for following the will of the Senate and the Supreme Chancellor and following their mandate. Armies do it all the time, unfortunately.
I do understand what you are saying and I certainly don't blame KT for it. It's just that it's a viewpoint that I really, really don't share.
But I was more upset about the turn of the franchise to hopeless non-redemption and continual blood-letting. I'm tired of it. Just so tired of it.
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Rigil_Kent
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
5/17 11:51am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
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dianethx posted:
But I was more upset about the turn of the franchise to hopeless non-redemption and continual blood-letting. I'm tired of it. Just so tired of it.
QFT that. The real world sucks sufficiently that I don't need to read SW and see it repeated.
But I'm going to step back from this entire discussion to avoid stating something that will offend or lead to a warning.
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Jedi-2B
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
5/17 12:49pm
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
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Jedi. The elitist [illegitimate children]! These poor bloody clones, used and discarded . . . and of course I was told about Order 66 from the start. Serves the buggers right, I thought. The spoon-bending hippies would get what they deserved for their complicity in maintaining a slave army.
Quotes like this from Karen Traviss are prime examples of why I don't care much for her. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and that happens to be mine.
The OJO wasn't perfect, I know. But they didn't contract to have the clones 'grown,' despite what the Kaminoans thought. As Diane said, they were under orders from the Supreme Chancellor to lead the clones into battle. I'd say the clones were most likely treated better by their Jedi generals than they would've been by any other leaders. If the Jedi had survived after the war, I can see them wanting the clones to be treated humanely.
And I believe that Traviss's dislike of the Jedi shouldn't carry over into villifying the new Jedi Order, and putting the Mandalorians on a pedastal as being vastly superior to the Jedi. In Invincible, I saw no evidence that Jaina's so-called unsurpassed Mando training had any bearing on her ability to kill Caedus. IMO, she could've done just as well with the Jedi training she already had.
Anyway, I don't mind a civil discussion that lets everyone have a chance to explain their point of view. So welcome to all our new members!
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It was Luke.
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