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Topic:
**Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion question 10-07-08
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Etain
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
5/17 1:00pm
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
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As long as we see that you're not trying to flame anybody here or are just spiteful, I don't see any problems, Rigil.
We're not in Lit here, and I am surely grateful for that.
the thing is that most people don't expect politicians to have a conscience, Jedi on the other hand are supposed to be one. I would have expected them to at least have a wonder-boy somewhere wondering about all the open questions. I didn't see him, might be only me, though. I also agree that given more time, they might have handled it morally more adequate.
But then, there can be only losers in a staged war. Both sides are right AND wrong. Siding is probably not so of a moral issue as we think.
The great thing about clones, IMO, is that they're walking conflict, and as such stories on legs. Outside of their battlefield environment they just fail. They are fully grown soldiers with the experience of kids. Not that it matters much as long as they stay in their intended environment.
I was about to ask the user to please watch his language before I realised you were quoting Traviss. Proves how much everything depends on phrasing.
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Jade_Pilot
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
5/17 1:48pm
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
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Rigil_Kent posted:
The real world sucks sufficiently that I don't need to read SW and see it repeated.
Word! One of my best friends here is always saying: "I don't want to have to escape from my escapism." What happened to the optimism of ANH? Heck, if I wanted to read about a dismal universe drowning in melancholia I can go pick up Sylvia Path or Edgar Alan Poe. Sheesh!
Etain posted:
The great thing about clones, IMO, is that they're walking conflict, and as such stories on legs.
LOVE that line! And it's so true.
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Jedi_Emeritus
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
5/17 3:15pm
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
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Sorry folks, I was going to stay completely out of this discussion to avoid saying something which would earn me a lengthy holiday from the boards, but I have found I simply cannot stay quiet. There are two things in particular which I believe have not been discussed enough.
First, in reading Traviss' comments regarding the plight of the clones and the Jedi order's supposed complicity, some very basic questions come to mind. Has she ever seen any of the movies? Has she ever read a book or a comic? Has she ever played any of the games? Does she know anything about SW at all?
You can argue that a new viewpoint can be refreshing to a franchise which has existed for years, but someone who is going to write about Star Wars and control the direction in which it is to grow, that person has to know something about it through their own experience. I do not get the impression she did know much of anything and considering what she has written in the Star Wars universe since, I'm not certain she knows any more now than she did then.
If she had seen the movies she would know that to attribute what happens to the clones to the Jedi order is ludicrous in the extreme - they didn't request the army's creation, they didn't ask to be put in positions of authority and they certainly didn't simply throw the clones out as cannon fodder. We are shown too little of what actually went on in the clone wars to jump to the conclusion that since the Jedi were the generals, the clones were immediately thrown into battle without any thought of their safety or welfare - that is jumping to conclusions based on insufficient evidence. If you want to blame it on someone, watch the movies and realize that Palpatine was the author of the entire mess - everything was done on his orders with the express purpose of wiping the entire Jedi order out down to the youngest child. Blame the Jedi for being blind to his true nature, but to blame everything on them and then think they got what they deserved shows a remarkable lack of understanding to me.
Admittedly I haven't read any of her stuff and do not intend to - my information all comes from reading what others have posted, both for and against. She can certainly come out and correct me and tell me that she has been an avid fan of the franchise since it was introduced. That would be the greater tragedy IMO because it would seem to suggest she does not understand anything she has seen or read.
Please also note that I am not slamming her writing skills, which I assume are at the very least adequate. I am questioning her suitability for writing in this franchise which she does not seem to care about one way or the other. Seems to me she got involved specifically for the opportunity to make a social statement - cloning is bad! Jedi are bad! Someone has to stand up for the poor little clones - the poor little clones who followed a Sith Lord's orders (yes I realize it was programed into them) and murdered thousands of Jedi who were fighting on their side. Oh, I'm sorry - they were 'spoon-bending hippies' so they deserved it.
Whatever...
Secondly, I want to point out that the whole franchise has strayed from what Star Wars originally was. I mean, Star Wars is space opera - essentially a fantasy fiction set in space. It's all about the fight of good versus evil, of the morally upright against the morally corrupt. The OT was about hope, decency and struggling on against impossible odds, believing in a just cause. It was about doing what was right, about people changing and becoming better (read Han for one), and primarily, it was about redemption in many different forms. The only resemblance any of the new fiction has to that universe is some names and the stamp of approval from LFL, but IMO the franchise has completely lost its way. It has become nothing more than a dark parody, a story without hope or light which characterized it in the beginning.
Whatever happened to Luke rushing off to rescue a princess without any thought to his own safety, Han racing after a squad of stormtroopers, yelling for his companions to 'get back to the ship', Luke flying off half trained to attempt a rescue of his friends against impossible odds, Leia risking everything to rescue the man she loved? There doesn't appear to be any of that in anything since Zahn, and I for one am annoyed at what the profic writers have done to one of my favorite franchises.
This is Star Wars, not the daily soap operas and like others have so eloquently stated, if I wanted to hear nothing but bad news and horror stories, I'll turn on the six o'clock news. This is not what Star Wars was intended to be.
Just my opinions on the subject, you are certainly welcome to your own. To me however, the Star Wars we are discussing today is not my Star Wars.
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Padawan to EmilieDarklighter If you had to identify, in one word, the reason why the human race has not achieved, and never will achieve, its full potential, that word would be 'meetings'. Take My Hand: http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/28300611/
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dianethx
Registered:
Mar '02
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Date Posted:
5/17 4:15pm
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
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Well, KT's writing skills were fine, imo. Her scene with Ben and Mara discussing things in Sacrifice was just wonderful. I can't speak for her knowledge of SW however.
But I think it's more the franchise at the moment. NJO hit and I tried to follow it. Some of the books were good, well-written. Traitor was brilliant but Stover's books are always great. I liked some of the others, too, but it was the sheer depression of it all. I figured after that and all the complaining, that they'd give us something more upbeat....  ah, well.
Hopefully, Stover's new book with Luke before NJO will work out. I have high hopes for it.
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Jade_Pilot
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
5/17 4:29pm
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
- Date Edited:
5/17 4:34pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Jade_Pilot
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Jedi_Emeritus posted:
Whatever happened to Luke rushing off to rescue a princess without any thought to his own safety, Han racing after a squad of stormtroopers, yelling for his companions to 'get back to the ship', Luke flying off half trained to attempt a rescue of his friends against impossible odds, Leia risking everything to rescue the man she loved? There doesn't appear to be any of that in anything since Zahn, and I for one am annoyed at what the profic writers have done to one of my favorite franchises.
I think there are a lot of us here who are asking the same question, Jedi Emeritus. The EU, at times, has gone a different route, but the remedy for that (to me) has been fanfiction. I absolutely LOVE some of the EU: Rogue squadron, Wraith Squadron, Mara Jade, Ben Skywalker and though I don't always like the way they are portrayed, I do find solace here in the wonderful Fanfiction stories available.
My concern is that 'Sacrifice' has smushed (southern word) the creative muse of some of our writers here. I would love to read an LOTF AU that brings this all to a more satisfying conclusion.
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Jedi_Emeritus
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
5/17 4:39pm
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
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Jade_Pilot posted:
My concern is that 'Sacrifice' has smushed (southern word) the creative muse of some of our writers here.
I understand your concern and I believe that it did for some time - I do think that the writing has recovered somewhat since. (BTW, I've used smushed myself way up here in the great white north!  )
Jade_Pilot posted:
I would love to read an LOTF AU that brings this all to a more satisfying conclusion.
I would not mind reading something like that myself - the only problem I have with it is that I don't believe the series is redeemable in any way. If the previous material were any better (NJO and everything else written in between was just as bad IMO) you may be able to do something with it.
I personally would never try to write anything like that b/c I simply don't know or care about most of what has been written in the last decade and trying to rewrite LotF would entail reading some of that other stuff. I would prefer to see a completely new set of stories to completely replace what is out there now.
Yeah, I know - not likely. Oh well, I guy can dream, can't he?
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Padawan to EmilieDarklighter If you had to identify, in one word, the reason why the human race has not achieved, and never will achieve, its full potential, that word would be 'meetings'. Take My Hand: http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/28300611/
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Rigil_Kent
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
5/17 4:52pm
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
- Date Edited:
5/17 4:58pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Rigil_Kent
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Jedi_Emeritus posted:
I would prefer to see a completely new set of stories to completely replace what is out there now.
Working on it... 
But you've put in words exactly what my boggle with most of the EU is, Jedi_Emeritus, and why I don't bother to read any of the profic these days.
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madman007
Registered:
Aug '07
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Date Posted:
5/17 6:10pm
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
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Jade_Pilot posted:
Jedi_Emeritus posted:
Whatever happened to Luke rushing off to rescue a princess without any thought to his own safety, Han racing after a squad of stormtroopers, yelling for his companions to 'get back to the ship', Luke flying off half trained to attempt a rescue of his friends against impossible odds, Leia risking everything to rescue the man she loved? There doesn't appear to be any of that in anything since Zahn, and I for one am annoyed at what the profic writers have done to one of my favorite franchises.
I think there are a lot of us here who are asking the same question, Jedi Emeritus. The EU, at times, has gone a different route, but the remedy for that (to me) has been fanfiction. I absolutely LOVE some of the EU: Rogue squadron, Wraith Squadron, Mara Jade, Ben Skywalker and though I don't always like the way they are portrayed, I do find solace here in the wonderful Fanfiction stories available.
My concern is that 'Sacrifice' has smushed (southern word) the creative muse of some of our writers here. I would love to read an LOTF AU that brings this all to a more satisfying conclusion.
You will. Soon! 
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Now starting my new epic Traits Of Descent - A mysterious vigillante is murdering former Black Sun members http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=28968173&brd=10476&start=29053268 "They'll probably miss you and hit me." Paul Newman 1925 - 2008
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Etain
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
5/18 2:52am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
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Jedi_Eremitus posted:
If she had seen the movies she would know that to attribute what happens to the clones to the Jedi order is ludicrous in the extreme - they didn't request the army's creation, they didn't ask to be put in positions of authority and they certainly didn't simply throw the clones out as cannon fodder. We are shown too little of what actually went on in the clone wars to jump to the conclusion that since the Jedi were the generals, the clones were immediately thrown into battle without any thought of their safety or welfare - that is jumping to conclusions based on insufficient evidence. If you want to blame it on someone, watch the movies and realize that Palpatine was the author of the entire mess - everything was done on his orders with the express purpose of wiping the entire Jedi order out down to the youngest child. Blame the Jedi for being blind to his true nature, but to blame everything on them and then think they got what they deserved shows a remarkable lack of understanding to me.
Oh, I do blame Palps, but the thing is you can't really do it in-universe. He covered all his tracks and nobody knows he's pulling the strings on both sides. But since people are people, they will have to blame somebody. (Provided they think there is something to blame somebody for.) And there are not many options for that.
Otherwise, I agree on the downturn profic has taken. I had to give up NJO in a book by Stackpole of all people. I like his writing. There's not much out there for me. Somehow, I hope there will be more stand-alone books/trilogies set before NJO like in Bantam times. Or more Tales books. I love the Tales. 
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RC_DARMAN is back! ~ Proud Toastmaster of katriene ~ Sock of MsLanna
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divapilot
Registered:
Nov '05
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Date Posted:
5/18 8:00am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
- Date Edited:
5/18 9:02am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
divapilot
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Back to the clones thingy (that's a northern word, J-P! )
Correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure you will) -- the clones were constructed, not born. They were imprinted and programmed, not educated. They were never designed to be independent, thinking or self aware. If they were, they would not have blindly followed Order 66.
Look at the relationships between clones and Jedi. Commander Cody and Obi-Wan Kenobi were friends. Commander Bly had the utmost respect (and possibly attraction) for Aayla Secura. Yet, on a moment's notice, they turned and shot. Cody would have surely executed the friend to whom he had, moments before, handed a weapon to. Bly shot Aayla in the back. Without a moment's hesitation.
Clones cannot be looked on as innocent victims. They lack the ability to do anything that supercedes their programming. Maybe there was a part of Bly or Cody that said, "Hey, wait a minute. I really like this person. I hate to have to kill them," but I never saw it. It was like flipping a switch.
To glorify their Mandalorian ethnic background is kind of like celebrating St. Patrick's day with Irish zombies. They have lost what made them human -- a heart.
Did the clones get the short end of the stick?? I don't know. In many ways, they didn't seem to have much more humanity than the droids that comprised the other side's army. I wouldn't go blaming the Jedi for "getting what was coming to them" in terms of creating the situation that led to their demise. In fact, I would say the Jedi were some of the few people who attempted to find the humanity in the clones.
Which was Palp's plan all along. He depended on the clones to be mindless programmed followers, not independent thinkers.
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Etain
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
5/18 11:49am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
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Erm, could you tell me what the writing says. Even if I open the pic in a new window, it doesn't get any bigger.
Curiosity will kill me. 
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Alexis_Wingstar
Registered:
Sep '06
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Date Posted:
5/18 11:56am
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
- Date Edited:
5/18 11:56am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Alexis_Wingstar
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It says, "I had friends on that deathstar."
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Jade_Pilot
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
5/18 12:04pm
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
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divapilot posted:
Back to the clones thingy (that's a northern word, J-P! )
oooohh...'thingy is a good word, girl!'
Correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure you will) -- the clones were constructed, not born. They were imprinted and programmed, not educated. They were never designed to be independent, thinking or self aware. If they were, they would not have blindly followed Order 66.
Excellent point!
Look at the relationships between clones and Jedi. Commander Cody and Obi-Wan Kenobi were friends. Commander Bly had the utmost respect (and possibly attraction) for Aayla Secura. Yet, on a moment's notice, they turned and shot. Cody would have surely executed the friend to whom he had, moments before, handed a weapon to. Bly shot Aayla in the back. Without a moment's hesitation.
That never sat right with me, but your explanation makes a lot of sense.
Clones cannot be looked on as innocent victims. They lack the ability to do anything that supercedes their programming. Maybe there was a part of Bly or Cody that said, "Hey, wait a minute. I really like this person. I hate to have to kill them," but I never saw it. It was like flipping a switch.
Yes, this goes back to the whole pre-programming.
To glorify their Mandalorian ethnic background is kind of like celebrating St. Patrick's day with Irish zombies. They have lost what made them human -- a heart.
Did the clones get the short end of the stick?? I don't know. In many ways, they didn't seem to have much more humanity than the droids that comprised the other side's army. I wouldn't go blaming the Jedi for "getting what was coming to them" in terms of creating the situation that led to their demise. In fact, I would say the Jedi were some of the few people who attempted to find the humanity in the clones.
Which was Palp's plan all along. He depended on the clones to be mindless programmed followers, not independent thinkers.
Master Manipulator extraordinaire.
Etain: I think it says: "I had friends on that deathstar."
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Etain
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
5/18 12:15pm
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
- Date Edited:
5/18 12:16pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Etain
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Ah, thanks. I'm pretty blind, I'm afraid. 
divapilot posted:
Which was Palp's plan all along. He depended on the clones to be mindless programmed followers, not independent thinkers.
I think that's what it is for normal clones. There's supposed to be a difference for RCs, ARCs and Null-Arcs (bunch-a-bonkers), but if that is the topic to dispute, I'd rather not. A discussion of what defines a sentient person is to hot for me.
Me <- 
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Jade_Pilot
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
5/18 12:18pm
Subject:
RE: **Over 30 Writers Club** New Discussion Question (5-12-08)
- Date Edited:
5/18 12:35pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jade_Pilot
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Does anyone know by the time of ANH if there were in fact any clone stormies left?? I had always assumed these were infantry men and not clones anymore.
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