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All Helmet, No Head - The Mandalorian Discussion Group and Index---New stories, new discussion--9/2!
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Darth_Garak
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
8/11/07 2:44am
Subject:
RE: All Helmet, No Head - The Mandalorian Discussion Group and Index***Mandos and Morality***8/10
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You're saying that there are two instances in which Mandos take a moral stand. One in everyday life when they decide not to go around town shooting people just for the heck of it (unless they are part of the Death Watch or Mando Wars Era....since they seem kinda bent on wiping out the Republic....but that doesn't count, the Sith are behind that mess) and the second instance is when they take a job. It's one thing go save some hutt's money or whatnot and totally different thing to kidnap a child and hold it for ransom, all the time knowing that you might have to kill the child.
Boba Fett said "'Never use your kids, scumbag. Never." to H'buk in Bloodlines. Two other interesting comment Fett made were : "I am sorry for the deaths of the innocent. But that happens in a war, Leia Organa. The innocent die in wars, and your side should not have started this one." and "I've killed virtually everything that moves, one time or another, a hundred different species, sentient and dumb; if it breathes I've probably killed it or something like it. But I've killed clean. I've killed without stretching it out." I know this is all from Fett's point of view, and he isn't as much a Mando as he should be, but his words sound true to the Mando culture.
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MsLanna
Title: CR GSFF Central
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
8/11/07 3:36am
Subject:
RE: All Helmet, No Head - The Mandalorian Discussion Group and Index***Mandos and Morality***8/10
- Date Edited:
8/13/07 2:09pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
MsLanna
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Darth_Garak posted:
You're saying that there are two instances in which Mandos take a moral stand. One in everyday life when they decide not to go around town shooting people just for the heck of it (...) and the second instance is when they take a job. It's one thing go save some hutt's money or whatnot and totally different thing to kidnap a child and hold it for ransom, all the time knowing that you might have to kill the child.
Yes, that's phrased much better, thanks.
And I think they consider BEFORE taking a job wherther it's in the limits of their morals, because after taking it they're commited.
Jango Fett posted:
He who hires my hand, hires my whole self.
EDIT: Okay, hoping to make sense now.
I tried to find the word 'wrong' in the vocabulary list and didn't.
We're used to think in opposites, light/dark, good/bad right/wrong
So what would the implcations be if there is no such thing a 'wrong'. Not right is always impling now/in this case. Then things would always be implicitly acceptable depending on cicrumstances.
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browwiw
Registered:
Jan '07
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Date Posted:
8/14/07 4:45pm
Subject:
RE: All Helmet, No Head - The Mandalorian Discussion Group and Index***Mandos and Morality***8/10
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I always hesitate to talk about the morality and ethics of fictional cultures because, well...they're fictional and we can only interpret them from our own moral filters and preferences. As real people, we believe what we believe and try to make their entertainment preferences somehow play well with those beliefs.
Attempting to make them jive with real-world religions or secular philosophies is futile. It won't work because they are fictional and, thus, inscrutable. Mandalorians are Mandalorians and we can only know of them what the author has revealed to us. Consider this a disclaimer and a call for rationality (not that I have found anything irrational in this thread...but, hey, we've all suffered through the Literature forum).
That said, here's my thoughts.
I think it's possible to be a good Mandalorian and still be a bad person. That is, you can follow the precepts of your culture, speak the language, and 'walk the walk', but still be a murderous sack if kark. Case in point: Ghez Hokun. It could be argued that Ghez is the perfect Mandalorian, interpreting and applying his culture literally. That doesn't stop him from being a cold blooded killer that weighs life through the application of force. Not even the Death Watch could stomach him. And though it's never brought up, I think it's very telling he wasn't chosen to be a Cuy'val Dar (I'd hate to think what his Commandos would have been like).
I like to believe that Mandalorians put a premium on fairness and respect. Why don't they like chemical and biological weapons? IMHO, it's because it doesn't give the enemy a chance to fight back. You can't battle a germ or molecule. Even the most meager of enemies should be given the chance defend themselves and die on their feet. My idea is that the Mandalorians looked back on all the atrocities they committed in the Mandalorian Wars (nearly wiping out the Cathars, nuking and entire planet) and said to themselves "Is this what we want to be? Is winning worth diminishing yourself? What does this say about us as a people?" Again, that's just my theory.
As for Mandalorians firing on Mandalorians working for an opposing force...I think they'd do it. A contract is a contract and nobody would hire Mandalorians anymore if they whelched over sentimentality. It would probably me a clean fight, possibly even ritualized, but it would be a fight.
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MsLanna
Title: CR GSFF Central
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
8/15/07 1:15am
Subject:
RE: All Helmet, No Head - The Mandalorian Discussion Group and Index***Mandos and Morality***8/10
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browwiw posted:
As for Mandalorians firing on Mandalorians working for an opposing force...I think they'd do it. A contract is a contract and nobody would hire Mandalorians anymore if they whelched over sentimentality. It would probably me a clean fight, possibly even ritualized, but it would be a fight.
*tries to fight off evil plot bunny with a stick*
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Padawan owned by Corellian_Ale Master of CloneCaptainRex. Proud FanFic Master of Darth_Sathanos I owe Steve Sansweet a cookie. gedin'la verd miit'goran
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Revanche
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
8/28/07 9:43am
Subject:
RE: All Helmet, No Head - The Mandalorian Discussion Group and Index***Mandos and Morality***8/10
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Howdy, fellas. Is Challenge 1 still going on?
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Corran_Fett
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
8/28/07 12:20pm
Subject:
RE: All Helmet, No Head - The Mandalorian Discussion Group and Index***Mandos and Morality***8/10
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Well, since we don't have voting on our fics, the deadline can be neglected in that case.
Thus, the challenges are still open, so go ahead and add your late entry!
To be honest, I'd have said "Yes" anyways, because I'll say anything that enriches the amount of Mando fanfiction.
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Errant_Miraade
Registered:
Aug '07
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Date Posted:
8/30/07 8:26pm
Subject:
RE: All Helmet, No Head - The Mandalorian Discussion Group and Index***Mandos and Morality***8/10
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browwiw posted:
I always hesitate to talk about the morality and ethics of fictional cultures because, well...they're fictional and we can only interpret them from our own moral filters and preferences. As real people, we believe what we believe and try to make their entertainment preferences somehow play well with those beliefs.
Attempting to make them jive with real-world religions or secular philosophies is futile. It won't work because they are fictional and, thus, inscrutable. Mandalorians are Mandalorians and we can only know of them what the author has revealed to us. Consider this a disclaimer and a call for rationality (not that I have found anything irrational in this thread...but, hey, we've all suffered through the Literature forum).
I agree with trying insert real ideology or philosophy into fiction or make fiction fall into line with real beliefs is a foolish notion. Well, unless there's an obvious real-world influence for that fictional element. If there was one for Mandalorian, I don't know what it is.
However in the absence of a stela with the Mando version of Hammurabi's Code, it's a good exercise for writers and roleplayers a like. It puts more thought and a degree more of realism into characters and the author's take on Mandalorian culture.
As an athropology major, it's also a fun way to daydream during a boring lecture. 
Corran_Fett posted:
I've really been talking nasty weaponry like disruptors, weapons of mass destruction, biochemical toxins and biological agents that cause contagions like the Krytos virus or other epidemics that can wipe out a whole species. I'm talking "highly illegal" and "banned for best reasons" here, but sure less hazardous black market products aren't that much of an issue.
I tend to disagree with disruptors being on the black list amongst Mandos. Weapons of mass destruction? Sure, as browwiw said, they just demean the culture as a whole. However, disruptors are only illegal in some star systems under the New Republic. The Empire seems to have restricted them further perhaps just to elite Imperial agents. Who knows what the GA has made in regards to disruptor law.
Mandalorians accept wholeheartedly using flamethrowers. It's a stand-by addition to their armor. As an off-hand comment Jaing says in Sacrifice that Mirta best be sure she gets the flamethrower when Boba keels over. It's pretty flippant remark, but also shows that Jaing thinks the flamethrower is best piece of equipment Mirta could get. Knowing Kal Skirata, Jaing would have become a paragon of Mando culture. So his estimation that flamethrowers are a-okay with Mandos says a lot.
Flamethrowers are a nasty weapon. They're great for clearing out enclosed places, but getting torched by a flamethrower is a horrible way to die. Getting hit square on by a disruptor bolt would be really painful as your molecules exploded, but it'd be quick. As that gout of burning fuel hits you from that flamethrower it's going to take you at least a few seconds of agony to die.
So why are disruptors so likely get you an instant death mark while flamethrowers are waved through the same check point?
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Corran_Fett
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
9/4/07 4:50am
Subject:
RE: All Helmet, No Head - The Mandalorian Discussion Group and Index***Mandos and Morality***8/10
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 You got a point there with the flamethrower. But then again, flamethrowers are rarely used, and most of the time against a big bunch of enemies. You won't waste fuel for a single X-Ray, unless he's a tough opponent and/or you're "dueling" with him.
I can see disruptors used mainly in assassination business. You won't be giving the guy you're to assassinate a chance to fight back, anyway. I have to admit, playing Jedi Outcast and Academy, the Tenloss Disruptor was one of my favorites, but mainly because it was the only proper sniping weapon in the game. But somehow it just feels brutal blasting an enemy to nothing but molecules, and then there's still the "No disintegrations, please." thingy.
browwiw posted:
I like to believe that Mandalorians put a premium on fairness and respect. Why don't they like chemical and biological weapons? IMHO, it's because it doesn't give the enemy a chance to fight back. You can't battle a germ or molecule. Even the most meager of enemies should be given the chance defend themselves and die on their feet. My idea is that the Mandalorians looked back on all the atrocities they committed in the Mandalorian Wars (nearly wiping out the Cathars, nuking and entire planet) and said to themselves "Is this what we want to be? Is winning worth diminishing yourself? What does this say about us as a people?" Again, that's just my theory.
That's how I see it as well, and a disruptor fits well into that category, assassinations being the exception. In KotOR II, there was a weapon called "Mandalorian Disintegrator", which was the most effective "blaster" for a reason. But there's still the flamethrower, which doesn't really fit into all that. Maybe it's just me misjudging the "value" of a disruptor rifle
browwiw posted:
I think it's possible to be a good Mandalorian and still be a bad person. That is, you can follow the precepts of your culture, speak the language, and 'walk the walk', but still be a murderous sack if kark. Case in point: Ghez Hokun. It could be argued that Ghez is the perfect Mandalorian, interpreting and applying his culture literally. That doesn't stop him from being a cold blooded killer that weighs life through the application of force. Not even the Death Watch could stomach him. And though it's never brought up, I think it's very telling he wasn't chosen to be a Cuy'val Dar (I'd hate to think what his Commandos would have been like).
Yeah, when I think of HC again, that does apply to Hokan. But then again, he's more of a sociopath and may be interpreting the Mandalorian ways in a wrong way. But you can have Hokan types anywhere, not just with Mandalorians, and even Walon Vau probably fits into that category.
I still think you can't state a Mando's moral virtues for all of them, it really depends on the individual. It can't be denied that they are an intimidating culture, but they're not ruthless and brutal, at least not to an inhuman extent.
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correllian_ale
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
9/4/07 1:56pm
Subject:
RE: All Helmet, No Head - The Mandalorian Discussion Group and Index***Mandos and Morality***8/10
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Hey C_F, hope you don;t mind me throwing down my two cents.
Personally when talking about Vau and Hokan, there's really no comparison. IIRC, Vau became a Mandalorian of his own accord (rebelling against his parents or what have you), Skirata kind of viewed him as a wannabe.
But, Vau despite his mean streak, did care for his men. he raised them as his father had him (who wasn't Mando). He practiced tough love to a degree beyond most Mandalorians to be sure, but all signs point to a father just as proud as Skirata.
Hokan, on the other hand, not only was he defining Mandalorian tradition to fit his own prejudices and physchotic beliefs, but he was essentially going against everything his people stood for. I realize he was a rejected Death Watchman, I still believe the essence of Manda culture rang true in both groups. True Mandalorians wanted to fight for neccessity, while the DW wanted to just flat out conquer.
I think neither group would want to be associated with the bio-weapon Hokan was hired to ensure was guarded to fruition, regardless of the views of most Mando that the clones were darmanda Vau was training his men to survive (was his methods brutal - yes), while Hokan was working to wipe them out. Just on that aspect alone, I think Vau would be a canidate for Mandalor by comparsion to Hokan.
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Commander5052
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
9/4/07 3:16pm
Subject:
RE: All Helmet, No Head - The Mandalorian Discussion Group and Index***Mandos and Morality***8/10
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Sorry to interrupt the flamethrower discussion, but I've started a story about The Battle of Malachor V, with POV characters from both sides.
The Mandalorian POV characters are Mandalore the Ultimate and Canderous Ordo, but I used a lot of other characters (Mandalorian and Republic both) from the KotoR games and comics, especially the Mando ones. Enjoy.
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Errant_Miraade
Registered:
Aug '07
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Date Posted:
9/6/07 9:16pm
Subject:
RE: All Helmet, No Head - The Mandalorian Discussion Group and Index***Mandos and Morality***8/10
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Corran_Fett posted:
You got a point there with the flamethrower. But then again, flamethrowers are rarely used, and most of the time against a big bunch of enemies. You won't waste fuel for a single X-Ray, unless he's a tough opponent and/or you're "dueling" with him.
We've only seen flamers used by Boba and Jango. Canon support in the modern eras for other usage comes from the Corporate Sector, but they use it for crowd control. Ain't that nice?
Corran_Fett posted:
I can see disruptors used mainly in assassination business. You won't be giving the guy you're to assassinate a chance to fight back, anyway. I have to admit, playing Jedi Outcast and Academy, the Tenloss Disruptor was one of my favorites, but mainly because it was the only proper sniping weapon in the game. But somehow it just feels brutal blasting an enemy to nothing but molecules, and then there's still the "No disintegrations, please." thingy.
The "No disintegrations" was a warning to Boba, but of course he's never been stated as a good example of Mando-hood. About the Mandalorian Disintegrator, that's KotOR: Sith Lords era kit. I figure that most Mandos don't use disruptors because they are a lot of trouble. Customs officials, law enforcement to be sure, but also the slow refire rate and if I remember right limited range.
*shrug* I think the answer to a lot of Mando morality is "do the Five Actions, be civil to Mandos, and do cause the kind of trouble that drags us all in with you."
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The_Mandalorian_
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
9/10/07 11:07am
Subject:
RE: All Helmet, No Head - The Mandalorian Discussion Group and Index***Mandos and Morality***8/10
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Errant_Miraade posted:
[quote=Corran_Fett] You got a point there with the flamethrower. But then again, flamethrowers are rarely used, and most of the time against a big bunch of enemies. You won't waste fuel for a single X-Ray, unless he's a tough opponent and/or you're "dueling" with him.
We've only seen flamers used by Boba and Jango. Canon support in the modern eras for other usage comes from the Corporate Sector, but they use it for crowd control. Ain't that nice?
Well first off, while as far as i can tell you are correct about only Jango and Boba being seen using flamethrowers, the hose where the fuel comes from to make that flame is something that can be seen on most any Mandalorian in Jango Fett Open Seasons.
I've been following Mandalorian lore and culture for years and as far as I can tell you the newer commandos of Jaster and Viszla's age were more like our military today- more no nonsense and all about getting the job done. The crusader age is done with these guys, and while theyre certainly not just Mandalorians in name- they spend less time arguing with themselves about which is the better path to honor and glory and more how they can get back home. This doesnt make them cowards in comparison to their Crusader predecessors, this makes them a more evolved culture and people.
It is certainly off limits and positively out of the question to use biological weapons, but disintegraters are no different than sniper rifles and are okay tools of necessity.
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The_Mandalorian_
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
9/14/07 3:38pm
Subject:
RE: All Helmet, No Head - The Mandalorian Discussion Group and Index***Mandos and Morality***8/10
- Date Edited:
9/14/07 3:41pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
The_Mandalorian_
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Hey fellas, i thought you'd like to know that i just completed a short story taking place around the final days of the 212 Mandalorian Protectors campaign during the Clone Wars. Its a gritty story about four Mandalorian Protectors dispatched by Mandalore the Resurrector to take on a suicide mission in the heart of Mustafar that leads them to question the Mandalore's word, integrity, and sanity.
The fic is titled "Hell is for Heroes!" Hope you dig it.
http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/27467715/p1/?0
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Corran_Fett
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
9/15/07 8:12am
Subject:
RE: All Helmet, No Head - The Mandalorian Discussion Group and Index***Mandos and Morality***8/10
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Commander5052 and The_Mandalorian_, would you mind if I add your stories to the index?
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The_Mandalorian_
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
9/15/07 11:14am
Subject:
RE: All Helmet, No Head - The Mandalorian Discussion Group and Index***Mandos and Morality***8/10
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Nope, not at all. I'd love if you added my story.
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