Jedi Council Forums - Living Jedi Dream - The Jacen Solo Discussion thread

Locked Topic | Read Only Topic | Previous Active Topic | Next Active Topic

Pages: 1 | 2 - Previous | ~~Next~~ | Reload

Author	Topic: Living Jedi Dream - The Jacen Solo Discussion thread
Flowerlady Registered: Dec '05	Date Posted: 3/14/07 7:11pm Subject: RE: Living Jedi Dream - The Jacen Solo Discussion thread
	When did Jacen Solo really fall to the dark side and what was the cause? Was it the Killiks attacking his daughter? The war with the Yuuzhan Vong and his breaking by Vergere? Was there something about Jacen from the beginning that made him destined to become evil? Or something else? Perhaps there are even some who think he hasn't truly fallen yet. Why? I also think Jacen's fall to the Dark Side has been a slow slide which personally I think goes the whole way back to the beginning of the Vong War. At that time, Jacen was a very confused boy who was finding himself and his galaxy in the midst of a war with a people no one knew anything about. Jacen then instead of lashing out or wanting to fight the threat decided to shut down and refused to even touch the Force. He was scared of it and what he could do, IMO. And we all know "fear is of the Dark Side." However, Jacen didn't only fear the Force he felt that it made him invincible. Jacen is and had always been arrogant, maybe not in a Corran Horn or Kyp Durron type of way, but he always thought that it had to be him to "save" someone or something or prevent something from happening. Then came Myrkr and everything changed. I agree with RC about Jacen doing things in the logical, the means justify the ends way that Jacen so much portrays in SbS and afterward. Then came Vergere and her torture and her veiled Sith philosophy teaching. If he had been tottering on the edge before, Darth Chicken gave him the push that sent him down the hill. He then finished out the brutal war and finally went searching for "truth". I think that Jacen's idea of what the Force is was very muddled by Vergere. She planted the seeds and Jacen's quest gave them the fertilizer to grow. He completely embraced the idea that there is no Dark Side, which should have been his first clue that he was in trouble. You know, I actually think Jacen Solo's fall to the Dark Side is more believable than even Anakin Skywalker's. I also think Jacen will end up being more evil. Sure Vader did terrible things, but Vader was also a puppet. Jacen as the capacity to become the next Palpatine. After reading Exile, I even got to thinking and wondering about if Profic had always meant for Jacen to fall to the Dark Side. As some of the others who posted before me pointed out there has always been something about Jacen that had been "off" or "odd". Could this all had been planned out since the beginning of NJO? Let’s face it, two of the authors of LotF had helped develop the NJO series and it’s no secret Denning, Zahn, Luccino and Stackpole are constant contributors to the plots and ideas, Denning even hinted at something concerning the Dark Side with his Tatooine Ghost. Does anyone else think this? If so, what do you think will be Jacen’s fate? FL -----signature----- Master to DanaeMariSkywalker, JediMasterArmada and PHGS_Weyr All WIP's on hiatus.... website: http://www.authorswe.webs.com/ Thank you to all that believe in me...Love ya!
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
TheCrazyRodian Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 3/14/07 11:46pm Subject: RE: Living Jedi Dream - The Jacen Solo Discussion thread
	I think... wait... you know, since I haven't read past the NJO, I don't really know enough to make an educated statement about Jacen. I still think, to a certain extent, his actual fall takes place after the NJO, but like wise TKL said earlier, falling to the Dark is a long process. It just seems like, even at the end of the NJO, he was still a lot of important choices away from being Dark. -----signature----- My body wears a green scent, as on the verge Between green laughter and green sorrow I have walked all day Until my legs have gone lame, and still the spring seems spirited away. --Yi Sanghwa
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Darth_Lex Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 3/15/07 5:59am Subject: RE: Living Jedi Dream - The Jacen Solo Discussion thread - Date Edited: 3/15/07 6:02am (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth_Lex
	It depends on what you mean by "falls to the dark side", really. If you mean, "when did Jacen lose his moral compass and become capable of evil?", I would say that moment comes in Traitor. There is a fundamental truth of moral philosophy in Vergere's teachings - no one is responsible for your choices but you. Nobody, not even an infernal (or divine) power, can "make" you do anything. So Vergere is entirely correct to say that the Force, particularly the dark side of the Force, is not what makes a Jedi's choices. The Jedi does. But Jacen misinterprets the lesson. Just because no one can make your choices but you doesn't mean that any choice you make is therefore correct. Palpatine says, "Evil is a point of view"; Vader says, "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil." Maybe so - but the morality of SW, particular as Lucas has defined it in the films, clearly condemns those statements as wrong and immoral. The Sith are evil. But - it's not because the dark side of the Force made them evil. It's because they choose to use the Force to do evil deeds. So, if the question is, "when did Jacen choose to be evil?", I would say that occurs at the end of Betrayal, when he murders an innocent Jedi to protect a Sith. He made some questionable choices at the end of the NJO, and he used some questionable (probably dark side) Force powers in those final battles. But he was not knowingly making a choice he, in his own mind, understood to be morally wrong. Same thing in Dark Nest. He made some questionable choices, especially deciding that genocide of the Killiks to prevent a wider war (and save his daughter) was the right thing to do, but even then he often tried to manage them into being not-quite-as-bad (such as betraying his parents to Jag - but asking that they be captured alive and safe). He's making bad choices, but he's still trying (in his own warped way) to do the right thing. It's in LOTF, starting with Nelani's murder, where Jacen changes his choices. Now he is, by his own reckoning, doing bad things. He knows he is making the wrong choices - but he has convinced himself it's the only way. Necessity drives him to learn the knowledge of the Sith, to take over the GAG, to intern Corellians, to issue arrest warrants for his parents. He knows he shouldn't be doing these things (just as Anakin did from the start of ROTS when he murdered Dooku), but he justifies to himself that he has no other alternative. In my view, then, this is the point where Jacen has chosen to be evil. He is making evil choices, knows he is making evil choices, and makes them anyway. In the end, the comparison to his grandfather is apt. Anakin's descent to the dark side is slow. It begins in childhood, even, when he acquires the ends-justify-means perspective of a slave; it begins in earnest when he slaughters the Sand People to avenge his mother; and it builds to a crescendo during the Clone Wars, which undermine Anakin's moral compass just as effectively as Vergere's breaking of Jacen. But even after all that, Anakin still could make the right choices. He isn't evil - yet. Even after he murders Dooku, he might step back from the brink. Until the nightmare of losing Padme changes everything for him... And even then he doesn't choose to become evil until he turns against Mace to save Palpatine. It's only in that scene, IMO, where he truly "falls to the dark side". Jacen's descent is parallel. Some seeds were laid in childhood - like the quote from Ruin that Yobi includes above - in Jacen's arrogance in wanting to be more than an ordinary Jedi. The Vong war accelerates his loss of a moral compass, but it's not until Vergere's breaking that he really loses sight of it for good. Then, like Anakin, he's at high risk for choosing evil. But, unlike Anakin, events don't shove him over the brink right away. Instead, it takes a decade for someone evil to manipulate events to put Jacen in a position to jump headlong off the edge - all on his own. It's only when Jacen intentionally makes the wrong choice, and knows he's doing it, that his fall to the dark side really takes place. -----signature----- Return to Bolis Island (J/J wedding, post-LOTF) http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/29571370/p1/ ----- Christie Golden FTW!
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
obsessedwithSW Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 3/15/07 7:39am Subject: RE: Living Jedi Dream - The Jacen Solo Discussion thread
	You know, I actually think Jacen Solo's fall to the Dark Side is more believable than even Anakin Skywalker's. I also think Jacen will end up being more evil. Sure Vader did terrible things, but Vader was also a puppet. Jacen as the capacity to become the next Palpatine. I agree! I relate to Jacen better than Anakin I wouldnt kill everyone for the sake of one but I would sacrifice the ones I love for the world if I was put to te absolute choice. In Jacen's mind that is what he is doing. I think the Nelani/ Dooku comparasion is apt since it was the kill that inducted the boys into their Sith Apprenticeship. Jacen's was cold calculated but Anakins was revenge and in a way pleasurable backed by emotion. Anakin can be manipulated by emotion I dont see that as true for JAcen. But it also was emotion that saved him. If Jacen isnt compelled by emotion what is to save him? I am not sure he can. I found his dream wih his mother taking hm out to space very chilling because I thnk it is the most merciful thing she could do. -----signature----- Yes Darth Maul -bring sexy back! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW8kOYvwVng Avid SiriWaner ! Stories in Bio
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
dianethx Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 3/15/07 8:51am Subject: RE: Living Jedi Dream - The Jacen Solo Discussion thread
	Lex pretty much nailed it for me. When he killed that Jedi at the end of Betrayal, in his twisted thoughts to save Luke, I knew at that point that he was going down the slippery slope pretty darn fast. What killed me was that I could see his choices in that scene would only lead to him confronting and possibly killing Luke. Why couldn't he see that? -----signature----- Betrayal - http://boards.theforce.net/s/b1/10935143 updated 9/22/09 jedidas3's Master Merlin - Diplomatic Immunity - http://boards.theforce.net/nswff/b10808/30459852
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Flowerlady Registered: Dec '05	Date Posted: 3/15/07 9:27am Subject: RE: Living Jedi Dream - The Jacen Solo Discussion thread
	I agree...Lex summed it up pretty well... If Jacen isnt compelled by emotion what is to save him? I am not sure he can. I found his dream wih his mother taking hm out to space very chilling because I thnk it is the most merciful thing she could do. These are my thoughts exactly and is the reason I don't think Jacen is or will be redeemable anymore than Palpatine had been. and obsessedwithSW I think you are correct...that could be the best thing she could have do for her son.... FL -----signature----- Master to DanaeMariSkywalker, JediMasterArmada and PHGS_Weyr All WIP's on hiatus.... website: http://www.authorswe.webs.com/ Thank you to all that believe in me...Love ya!
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
JediMasterArmada Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 3/15/07 10:50am Subject: RE: Living Jedi Dream - The Jacen Solo Discussion thread
	If Jacen isnt compelled by emotion what is to save him? I am not sure he can. I found his dream wih his mother taking hm out to space very chilling because I thnk it is the most merciful thing she could do. I agree with you there obsessedwithSW sending him into space is the most merciful end that Jacen could have. Well, other than having his Star Destoyer blow up while he was on board or having a fighter crash into the bridge. When he killed that Jedi at the end of Betrayal, in his twisted thoughts to save Luke, I knew at that point that he was going down the slippery slope pretty darn fast. What killed me was that I could see his choices in that scene would only lead to him confronting and possibly killing Luke. Why couldn't he see that? Don't ya find it sorta ironic that Jacen couldn't see it when others would have? One of the reasons I think that Jacen didn't see it is because Lumiya offered Jacen what he wanted on a silver platter, metaphorically speaking. All he had to do was embrace the knowledge os the Sith and join them. Think of it from jacen's point of view. Fulfillment at the cost of studying another view of the Force that has been misunderstood because of the actions of many whereas the few didn't embrace its destructive powers for that purpose. In his own way Jacen is an idealist of sorts. The idea that the dark side could be vindicated if you cast aside its general greed and lusting for power and used to create a peaceful galaxy is also very appealing. Jacen's pretty much been raised in war and has never really felt totally secure anywhere, so creating a peaceful galaxy for his daughter to live in is what he wants. Even though Lumiya didn't realize fully what she was manipulating she hit the right strings and twisted him to her will. As for him not seeing that he could possibly be the one to kill Luke remember what Luke's visions have been. It's been of someone causing him pain, if I remember correctly, not killing him but delighting in hurting him. And that's more like what the new Jacen would do than simply kill him. Causing Luke pain and making Luke wish that he were dead before killing him would be much more satisfying to the new Jacen than killing him outright I think. -----signature----- Rebirth (Anakin Solo) - http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/27608496/p1/ Break Me Down (Ben sequel to Hide) http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28227782/p1 Padawan to Flowerlady
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Darkwriter Registered: Jan '06	Date Posted: 3/15/07 5:04pm Subject: RE: Living Jedi Dream - The Jacen Solo Discussion thread
	I'm really trying to hold on to this guy. He's one of my two favorite Star Wars characters (the other being Tenel Ka), and there's apart of me that will hold on to the thought of redemption for Jacen Solo until he's dead. Though I hope he doesn't die. That would be sad. A lot of things led to his fall...and even I will admit that he's fallen. For one, the Solo/Skywalker family isn't exactly all that "together," and Jacen's never really had a father-figure he's seen eye-to-eye with. Sometimes it's Han and sometimes it's Luke, but it's never consistant, and it's obvious that he's grown too far from both of them---and the reason for that is most likely his five-year trek. A person can't just go away and come back to the same people. In just the course of a month people change dramatically. But all that aside, I have to say that Jacen's captivity with Vergere was his turning point. He was isolated with her at a crucial time in his life; he was confused and searching. And that age, 18-ish, is when most people undergo dramatic transformations...it's the point in our lives that we're trying to figure out who we are. For a Sith-like person to come in and make confused Jacen Solo into what she wants him to be only has a limited number of outcomes. The moment Vergere captured him, he was doomed. That said, the Jedi Order was at a tenuous stance as well. Whereas the Old Jedi Order would have been able to give Jacen a concrete definition of what being a Jedi is, Luke and the other Jedi were struggling to rebuild the Jedi themselves. But above all, the single thing that led to Jacen's fall was his arrogance. It's okay that he's confident in himself, because we all need that, but since his return from Vergere he's been too arrogant, and that's led to now; he doesn't realized when he's wrong. I think a lot of what Vergere has taught Jacen is good. People need to take responsibility for their choice, and they need to make split-second decisions. But too much of that arrogance is bad, as we've seen with Jacen Solo. Jacen's fall was gradual, it happened over time, and there were a lot of factors that caused it, but that's not to say that his fall was inevitable. JU=ust a single change could have saved him. And I have to believe that he can still be saved...because I just can't let go. It's been too long. Janet. p.s. sorry for the long rant! -----signature----- Jacen Solo Rest in Peace Jagged Fel for Emporer JAG: I came for an apology JAINA: Make it quick. I'm busy. JAG: Actually, I came to listen.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History

Pages: 1 | 2 - Previous | ~~Next~~ | Reload