Author Topic: T.A.C.T.I.C.S.=Thread for Advice and Criticism Towards Improving Combat Scenes
Pelranius 
Registered: Apr '03
6497_Kir Kanos
Date Posted: 8/26/04 4:25am Subject: RE: T.A.C.T.I.C.S.=Thread for Advice and Criticism Towards Improving Combat Scenes
Try focusing on what's going on inside the head of the pilots during a dogfight, but make references to what's going on outside as needed. It worked reasonably well for me.

 

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rhonderoo 
Title:
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Registered: Aug '02
46448_MLB 2008
Date Posted: 8/24/05 7:36pm Subject: RE: T.A.C.T.I.C.S.=Thread for Advice and Criticism Towards Improving Combat Scenes
Unlocking and upping by request. happy

 

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Zonoma 
Registered: Jun '05
7280_Dagobah
Date Posted: 8/24/05 7:56pm Subject: RE: T.A.C.T.I.C.S.=Thread for Advice and Criticism Towards Improving Combat Scenes
Oh man! I sooo needed a thread like this!

 

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Kudzu 
Registered: Jun '05
18640_Clonetrooper
Date Posted: 8/24/05 8:16pm Subject: RE: T.A.C.T.I.C.S.=Thread for Advice and Criticism Towards Improving Combat Scenes - Date Edited: 8/24/05 8:28pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Kudzu
OK, important point.

Don't waste time on technical terms. Yes, please please please don't just say, "Luke flew his starfighter towards the starship and fired warheads." Identify what the ships are. Does wonders for mental imaging, and it appeases the Fleet Junkies and unofficial starship peoples like mesa, tank you bombad. But take this example

Luke flew his T-65B X-wing towards the Mark I Imperial-class Star Destroyer and fired MG7-proton torpedoes.

"Artoo, look out!" he snapped as a TIE Interceptor flew towards them, laser cannons blazing.

The Imperial-class Star Destroyer opened fire with its XX-9 dual turbolaser turrets and Luke jinked, knowing that his X-wing couldn't repel firepower of that magnitude. Just then, three Mon Calamari MC-40a Light Star Cruisers dropped out of hyperspace and immediately raised their shields.

Luke smiled. His T-65B X-wing squadron wasn't going to be able to destroy an Imperial-class Star Destroyer with just medium laser cannons and MG7-proton torpedoes, but the MC-40a Light Star Cruisers, with their MTL-5 quad turbolaser cannons, could handle it.


Versus

Luke flew his T-65B X-wing towards the Imperial-class Star Destroyer and fired proton torpedoes.

"Artoo, look out!" he snapped as a TIE Interceptor flew towards them, laser cannons blazing.

The Star Destroyer opened fire with its turbolaser turrets and Luke jinked, knowing that his starfighter couldn't repel firepower of that magnitude. Just then, three Rebel MC-40a light cruisers dropped out of hyperspace and immediately raised their shields.

Luke smiled. His squadron wasn't going to be able to destroy a Star Destroyer with just lasers and torpedoes, but the Mon Calamarian warships, with their quad turbolaser cannons, could handle it.


Versus

Luke flew his fighter towards the starship and fired warheads.

"Artoo, look out!" he snapped as an enemy fighter flew towards them, laser cannons blazing.

The big ship opened fire with its weapons and Luke jinked, knowing that his fighter couldn't repel firepower of that magnitude. Just then, three Rebel ships dropped out of hyperspace and immediately raised their shields.

Luke smiled. His guys weren't going to be able to destroy an Imperial warship, but the Rebel ships could handle it.


Which is better? You be the judge.

 

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_JM_ 
Registered: Jun '01
6324_Porkins
Date Posted: 8/24/05 9:11pm Subject: RE: T.A.C.T.I.C.S.=Thread for Advice and Criticism Towards Improving Combat Scenes
Middle one is best, as intended.

Not sure I’d have bothered to say it was a T-65B unless that was a plot point, that the X-Wing being flown by the protagonist (Luke in this case) was either a younger or older model than most in service.
(XWA specdesc says the model in service in the run up to the Battle of Endor was the T-65C, so in this instance Luke could have decided he was a good enough pilot to compensate for the marginally worse performance).

As has been said in another thread avoid info-dumps where possible but be descriptive where needed (such as where a ship is not as well known as others since it originated in the EU (including games) rather than having been seen in the films). To use Kudzu’s example I might have done a little description of the MC-40a but I would have had this be someone’s thoughts rather than stated directly.

Actually I’d have probably switched points-of-view for that, which is another thing to consider doing in combat scenes, and had it be either the leader of the MC-40a group or the ISD Captain’s assessment. Using different points-of-view can let you get a nice idea of how events can be interpreted differently and let you show more events or thoughts.

In a longer story you would probably mix full descriptions with flashbacks. Some fights would be told from the point of view of the present, this is what is happening to the character “now.” Some fights would be told in less detail from the point of view of the character remembering them.
If there are stages to a battle then sometimes these would also be skipped over if they went on for a while (describe the start of an attack, time-skip, character thinks how long this has been going on for, describe the next stage).

Just bear in mind that no advice is universal other than to advise to do whatever fits your own style and the story best.

 

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Bale 
Registered: May '05
Date Posted: 8/25/05 4:07am Subject: RE: T.A.C.T.I.C.S.=Thread for Advice and Criticism Towards Improving Combat Scenes
Great idea for a thread. Glad to see its been given new life. As action scenes are the bane of my writing I'm sure I'll be here often.

 

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Zonoma 
Registered: Jun '05
7280_Dagobah
Date Posted: 8/25/05 6:07am Subject: RE: T.A.C.T.I.C.S.=Thread for Advice and Criticism Towards Improving Combat Scenes - Date Edited: 8/25/05 6:07am (1 edits total) Edited By: Zonoma
excellent advice! thank you, Kudzu and _JM_

 

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Neo-Paladin 
Registered: Dec '04
14777_Binary Sunset
Date Posted: 8/25/05 6:57am Subject: RE: T.A.C.T.I.C.S.=Thread for Advice and Criticism Towards Improving Combat Scenes
So, combat is something that I've always enjoyed writing and reading, so long as it's fresh and gripping. Here are my thoughts on both.

Keeping it fresh
Find something new. A new weapon, a novel strategy, an unexpected twist, a new combination; show me something I haven't seen. If it's the same stuff over and over again, I feel like I've already read it and I'm already skimming past it to what happens next.

Keeping it gripping
This is actually pretty easy, but a lot of work. I always think of writing combat like painting a picture. In the movies it's easy because I see the strike on the screen; in the written form I have to use words to paint the picture clearly in the reader’s mind. To that end there are two strategies I use, also using the painting metaphor: classical and impressionist.

In classical I describe each blow, each block, each twist, each turn. It's text heavy but I find if I use a lot of staccato sentences it flows quickly. When it's done right the fight is as clear as Vader's fight with Luke in ESB.

Impressionist is a lot less distinct, but should be just as clear. Use a lot of metaphors to describe the feel of the fight, giving a clear impression, but leaving the blow by blow to the imagination of the reader. About half of AotC Dooku vs Anakin was like this, the shots were tight in and there was a lot of light-play in the shadows.

So there's my whole philosophy on writing combat in a single post. tongue

 

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Bale 
Registered: May '05
Date Posted: 8/25/05 4:33pm Subject: RE: T.A.C.T.I.C.S.=Thread for Advice and Criticism Towards Improving Combat Scenes
Neo-Paladin, great advice and wonderful metaphors. I'll definitely keep that in mind w/ the fight scenes I'm working on.

 

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Missing scene: Vader in the meditation chamber:
http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/26817395/p1/?4
Decoy teaser trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvDksDPJoyk
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PadmeLeiaJaina 
Registered: May '02
41227_Padme
Date Posted: 8/25/05 6:12pm Subject: RE: T.A.C.T.I.C.S.=Thread for Advice and Criticism Towards Improving Combat Scenes
I probably should scan through this document to see if anyone bothered to look this stuff up and post it, but does anyone have a comprehensive list of correct types of terms that you should use to describe flight movements and sides of ships?

I'm female and I have problems knowing right from left, much less what the heck port, aft, or starboard side would mean.

I can sorta figure out what banking would mean - but if anyone knows more terms and could list them, that would be much appreciated happy

(Or unless if you know of a site that spells all of this stuff out - linky please!)

 

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Neo-Paladin 
Registered: Dec '04
14777_Binary Sunset
Date Posted: 8/25/05 9:12pm Subject: RE: T.A.C.T.I.C.S.=Thread for Advice and Criticism Towards Improving Combat Scenes - Date Edited: 8/25/05 9:15pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Neo-Paladin
I can talk about swordplay a bit, leaving nautical terms to someone with better experience I hope. tongue

As for swordplay... the question becomes how in depth do you want to get? In the SW-EU there are 7 styles, but I have an almost allergic reaction to them, as they are too often used as short cuts to describe a battle with out actually giving an image of it. As I said in a conversation once, fanfic needs more Errol Flynn and less Dragonball Z. tongue

So setting those aside, and looking at terms there are a few that are part of the common parlance (so to speak).
Thrust (stabby! stabby! stabby!)
Slash (Whoosh! Woosh!)
Parry (get that pointy thing away from me!)
Feint (fake out!)
These are all that I assume people know. I also use high and low, as well as left and right and diagonals. Throw some footwork in there and you're on your way.

Of course you could go overboard. grin Secret weapon time: HACA is a society for of people studying the medieval martial arts of Europe. They've got some video clips that make good inspiration as well as lexicons of Medieval Terminology. Now much of the terms are Italian or French and 0.0001% of your readers will have any clue what the terms mean, however the definitions make good inspiration for what to throw in for something different. this fencing glossary is one of the more useful, but again primarily for inspiration. There's a few idea's I'm chomping at the bit to use.

 

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PadmeLeiaJaina 
Registered: May '02
41227_Padme
Date Posted: 8/25/05 11:11pm Subject: RE: T.A.C.T.I.C.S.=Thread for Advice and Criticism Towards Improving Combat Scenes
Thrust (stabby! stabby! stabby!)
Slash (Whoosh! Woosh!)
Parry (get that pointy thing away from me!)
Feint (fake out!)


LMAO! laugh Nice descriptions there tongue

I do forget about Feint for lightsaber dueling - so that's a good tip! Thanks! grin

Still seeking nautical and air support type terminologies...

 

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_JM_ 
Registered: Jun '01
6324_Porkins
Date Posted: 8/25/05 11:44pm Subject: RE: T.A.C.T.I.C.S.=Thread for Advice and Criticism Towards Improving Combat Scenes
Probably forgot things, just free-associating away.

  • Bow = Prow = Front

  • Stern = Aft = Back

  • Port = Larboard = Left

  • Starboard = Right (from Steer Board, which was why you put the other side against the dock so you didn’t crunch your steering oar).

  • Quarter = 45 degrees off (e.g. port forward quarter = ahead and to the left)

  • Beam = Flank = Off to one side (e.g port beam = to your left and level with you)


  • Broadside = Guns mounted along the side of a ship or the total number of guns that can fire to that side.

  • Spinal = Mounted along the length of the ship, normally pointing forward (some SSDs have a mini-superlaser mounted this way).

  • Point-Defence = Anti-Fighter / Anti-Missile light guns.


  • Superlaser = Large beam weapon for killing planets or large ships.

  • Turbolaser = Various sizes of pulse weapon from diddly little ones on Corvettes up to dirty great ones on SSDs.

  • Laser = Fighter calibre gun for making holes in things. Shorter range than Turbolasers.

  • Ion Cannon = Disables enemy computers and control systems rather than burning holes. Can act like an electric shock on Vong ships according to some authors.

  • Concussion Missile = Light fast missile, most useful against smaller targets like fighters that can dodge.

  • Proton Torpedo = Slower less agile missile with a lot more BLAM, can be used on smaller targets (as in Rogue Squadron novels) but useful for killing starships.

  • Shadow Bomb = Proton Torpedo without an engine but with a more powerful warhead, generally used by Jedi but I’m sure someone like Wedge could aim well enough to not need the Force to guide and push it to the target.

  • Splinter Fire = Rather than one big shot, that would make a nice deep hole, the gun fires less powerful shots more rapidly. This has the advantage of confusing Yuuzhan Vong defences as to what shot to block, and can be very useful when killing people on the ground as even a splinter shot is enough to kill most people.


  • Roll = Rotating around the axis of flight (Half-Roll = rotating so your head and feet swap position, that way you can look “up” from your cockpit and see where you are going if you then loop “upwards” (as they did in ANH)).

  • Yaw = Nose left or right movement.

  • Pitch = Nose up or Nose down movement.

  • Loop = Bring the nose up and keep bringing it up until it gets all the way back to where it was. (half-loop = only go half way, negative loop = put the nose down and keep putting it down)

  • Bank = One wing up a bit, one wing down a bit. For some reason SW ships do this when turning even when not in atmosphere.


  • Positive-G = Pushed down in your seat (if your inertial compensator is not at maximum).

  • Black-Out = Pushed down in your seat hard enough the blood drains from your brain into your feet.

  • Negative-G = Pulled out of your seat (if your inertial compensator is not at maximum).

  • Red-Out = Pulled out of your seat enough the blood is forced into your head, more dangerous as can cause little blood vessels in eyes (bad) or brain (very bad) to pop.

 

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Neo-Paladin 
Registered: Dec '04
14777_Binary Sunset
Date Posted: 8/28/05 6:26pm Subject: RE: T.A.C.T.I.C.S.=Thread for Advice and Criticism Towards Improving Combat Scenes - Date Edited: 8/28/05 6:43pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Neo-Paladin
So, what else we got going on here?
Would anyone be interested in some sort of round-robin style of challenge that would stimulate practice of writing Combat?

The idea I've got in mind could have any number of authors and could garner both combat and non-combat plot elements. It would focus on ground combat (edit: but not Jedi, there would be lots of weapons, but no lightsabers and actually would lead to a wider variety I hope).

Anyone interested?

 

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PadmeLeiaJaina 
Registered: May '02
41227_Padme
Date Posted: 8/29/05 9:48pm Subject: RE: T.A.C.T.I.C.S.=Thread for Advice and Criticism Towards Improving Combat Scenes
_JM_

That's a great list! Thank you!

A combat round robin eh? thinking That could be interesting!

 

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