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MaxVeers Title: TFN FanFilms Staff Manager Emeritus Registered: Apr '00	Date Posted: 6/4/04 8:42pm Subject: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	John Clements has written an outstanding tutorial for TFN FanFilms regarding lightsaber combat techniques from a fighter's point of view—what is realistic, what isn't, and how to take advantage of both. His "six simple pieces of advice to consider in creating better lightsaber fights" alone will put you at the head of the pack. But don't stop there. Mr. Clements' extensive knowledge of history and fencing techniques makes this detailed tutorial an essential read for any aspiring lightsaber-wielders. (In other words, just about everyone.) Fighting with Lightsabers by John Clements -----signature----- Kurt Luther TheForce.Net FanFilms http://www.theforce.net/fanfilms/
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Jedi_Spiff Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 6/4/04 9:38pm Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	Ah! One of the fight like a martial artist essays There aren't a lot of realistic martial arts in movies - he's right. But there really isn't a big audience for that kind of stuff (see me trying to convince friends to watch martial arts movies. It's sad). Anyway - I know a lot of martial artists who liberally critique film battles and choreography as if they knew it inside out. I shared many such notions before making my own film. Now having actually done it, I know a thing or two (no more than that) about movie choreography, and I've got to say - while martial arts principles are something to keep in mind, it's probably better not to constrain youself to them. Editing, directing, performance, speed and sound will make most of the difference. Afterwards, and only afterwards, will people notice the intricacies of the motions. As for the spinning the sword stuff. So long as you're not within immediate striking distance of your opponent, I don't really see a problem with it. If nothing else, such motions allow you to test the balance of your weapon. If you are within close proximity to your opponent however, it is suicide. -Spiff -----signature----- "There are some things money can't buy. For everything else there's a Canadian taxpayer." - RCAF Now a member of the unofficial Master Zap fanclub. PwNN: http://wbm.zenutech.com/WBFilm/SWPlanet.html
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Jace Taran Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 6/4/04 9:51pm Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	I don't think he was referring to saber twirling. I think he was referring to the person spinning around durring a fight, and how in real life the other guy would just stab him in the back while he was turning around or something. -----signature----- For those of you following along at home, don't forget your...subatomic house? You see that? I am a professional; the ceiling is now on fire, and I'm not worrried. Well, that does it for stupid snake...FACE. http://returnoftheghostbusters.com
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DMPjedi Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 6/4/04 11:42pm Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	Wow, that was a great read and now I'm tired. I really liked how he emphisized acting like you're in a real fight, which I'm making a huge point of for Weapon of Betrayal. -----signature----- Nate Caauwe - VFX Supervisor, Movie Spoof 2 & 3 http://PixelCorps.com DMPjedi is not here right now, please leave a message with NateCaauwe after the beep. Beep.
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Saintheart Title: RPF Manager/Kensai Emeritus Registered: Dec '00	Date Posted: 6/5/04 12:21am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	An interesting read. I'd certainly agree with the "no 360-degree turns while in fight" rule. That's just inviting your opponent to stick his sword/saber out and ringbark you. I think this article, though, can be seen primarily as a reality check for those of us who are determined to do outlandish moves or really florid techniques as part of the saber fight. To his credit, Master Clements acknowledges several times through the article that he's a martial artist, not a film director or choreographer, and his comments should be taken in that context. -----signature----- Michelle: my Italian queen, my angel, my reason, my wife. Jessica: my little princess, my daughter, born 10 August 2007 Director -- Star Wars: Knighthood . Yes, I'm still here, but can only check in x1 per day. Please be patient!
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charonis Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 6/5/04 12:24am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	Jace Taran - I think he was referring to the person spinning around durring a fight, and how in real life the other guy would just stab him in the back while he was turning around or something. That is true, however, also not true. I have been involved in the martial arts for a loooong time, and during sparring, when someone does a move, many times opportunities are missed, and half a second later you say to yourself "Crap! I missed my chance!" Of course, it depends on the context of the twirly move if the guy should just stab him in the back but doesn't, i.e. he just ducks and looks at him as he continually spins around like a maniac. And then of course, no fight in any movie is very realistic anyway (well most movies anyway...). A true martial arts fight is very mentally focussed, trying to guess what the opponent will do, and then preparing to counter that move. But fights in movies are meant to be enjoyable, who wants a fight between the two main characters in the movie to end in one swipe? Unless of course, it is really one cool swipe -----signature----- Every man's blood is tainted... http://www.darkblood.co.nr Official Dark Blood Forums http://charonis.conforums.com
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Crunchy Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 6/5/04 5:09am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	Star Wars is about being flashy, that is why we swing the sabers around so much... -----signature----- Ryan Dube Who is the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows it? A RISING THREAT™ site: http://www.arisingthreat.com/ ART™ forums: http://bmcforums.image22.net/index.php ART™ online store: http://www.arisingthreat.com/store.asp
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VoijaRisa Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 6/5/04 6:57am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	I'm also an experienced sword fighter and have effectively employed a 360º spin while ingaged in full contact fighting. While it's rare to be able to get a chance to use it and not be hit for it, it's not impossible. The trick to it is being able to pin your opponnet's weapon long enough to know he can't hit you. In the 4 1/2 years I've been fighting, I've tried spin attacks 5 times: 2 times it worked and I did not get hit for it, once I missed and my opponent was able to kill me for it, once we hit eachother at the same time, and once we both completely missed. Also, just the other night I was fighting, and I had someone run by me and throw 1-2 attacks at my back before I was able to spin around to face him. I was able to block every one of them because I was able to see what attack he was starting into as he ran by. Point is that it's not impossible to spin or defend while you're back is turned. The long drawn out ones while your opponent stands there are obviously stupid, but if you've pinned your opponent's weapon with yours, and twist your arms over your head as you spin to hold it there, you can effectively spin and come out with a lot of momentum in your body which can then be put into your weapon for a strong attack. That's the only bit of critisim I had. Rest looked great. -----signature----- "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance." ~Terry Pratchett
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Plurimus Registered: Apr '99	Date Posted: 6/5/04 7:00am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	The line between credible and realistic is an issue a lot of the choreographers have dealt with here in this forum (and usually with a passion). The critique has to be taken within the context in which it was meant – a martial artist’s perspective. I, like he, share the same eye for sword fights. Consider this – if a fight is convincing enough to withstand the muster of a swordsman’s eye, wouldn’t it also withstand the muster of the general audience’s eye as well. Clements also mentions the intuitive nature of fencing which basically indicates that we ordinary folk already have the extremely predictive/inuitive powers that the Jedi would rely on. It’s the difference between knowing a move and having learned a move; knowledge and mastery. The chroeographer has to make it look like the actor doesn't just know the moves but that he brought them from out of his own mind and psyche. His essay will probably start the realism v. choreography fight, which isn’t a bad thing. It gets people to re-evaluate and re-think. He definitely respects everyone’s enthusiasm for the fan film art and defers to the needs of directors and their craft. The bottom line is that any choreographer has to follow the desire of the director and his interest in realistic or fantastic swordplay. Gillard recently admitted that he isn’t a sword master, which shows more or less that the sword fights that occur on screen are very much a function of the swordsmen/stuntmen under his guidance. In Lord of the Rings, one person created the general martial moves and fighting styles for the different peoples and creatures in Middle Earth, while the actual sword fighting of individuals and specific scenes was guided and created by another person. When I first read the blurb for Clements's article I thought he was going to show 6 basic sword cuts that could be applied to SW lightsaber fighting. Glad he didn't, though that's probably what a lot of people are looking for. Teaching technique is best done under a teacher or discerned from real observation of technique and not from a book. -----signature----- Sic Anima Tecum Author of: Shimmering Sword: Samurai, Western & Star Wars Sword Fighting http://www.ShimmeringSword.com Lightsaber choreographer for Revelations http://www.panicstruckpro.com/revelations
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Plurimus Registered: Apr '99	Date Posted: 6/5/04 7:12am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	360° spin Another consideration for the camera is that sword fights do not have to occur in real time, especially when the fight is cut up and re-edited for the final version. If you look at the assassination attempt on Cruise in Last Samurai, he’s fighting with one sword and then he suddenly has two swords. The editing is done so well that at regular speed it seems like he’s picked up a second sword from the ground. The 360 spin is so much a cliche move these days. Sword fight choreography is so rich with moves that not including it would not diminish the fight in any way. -----signature----- Sic Anima Tecum Author of: Shimmering Sword: Samurai, Western & Star Wars Sword Fighting http://www.ShimmeringSword.com Lightsaber choreographer for Revelations http://www.panicstruckpro.com/revelations
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Jamball Registered: Feb '04	Date Posted: 6/5/04 9:10am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	Choreographed sword fights in movies are supposed to be entertaining. Why else would you have them? There's a lot of stuff that happens in movies that doesn't happen in real life. Movies aren't trying to teach how to fight in real life. They trying to entertain. Sure, a 360 degree turn in a real sword fight is ridiculous, an open invitation to death. So why do they do it in the movies? Because it looks cool. It's entertaining. It's the same with people shooting people. In the movies, they never show over-penatration, but it's something a real life cop has to think about. I've seen a lot of sword fights with SCA. They're boring to watch. One or two hit fights are not fun. They're not flashy and entertaining. They're not something I'd pay to watch. There's real martial arts, and movie martial arts. Sure, the movies stuff is crazy, but it's done to entertain an audiance. Now, does that mean any one has free reign to do crazy kicks and flips, mindlessly waving a sword about? No. Movie martial arts are still grounded and based off of real martial arts, so it's important that the choreographer stay somewhat close to them, but I don't think it's necessary to make it real world. Gosh, I hope that made sense. --Jamball -----signature----- http://www.unseenhands.com -- We've got some cool flicks and cool music. Check it out! Don't feel bad about chasing fat people, they could probably use the exercise.
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nMe Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 6/5/04 10:07am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	In the 4 1/2 years I've been fighting, I've tried spin attacks 5 times: 2 times it worked and I did not get hit for it, once I missed and my opponent was able to kill me for it, once we hit eachother at the same time, and once we both completely missed. Point is that it's not impossible to spin or defend while you're back is turned. The long drawn out ones while your opponent stands there are obviously stupid, but if you've pinned your opponent's weapon with yours, and twist your arms over your head as you spin to hold it there, you can effectively spin and come out with a lot of momentum in your body which can then be put into your weapon for a strong attack. He didn't say it was impossible, he said it was foolish. From your own experience, that 360 move has a 40% success rate. If that had been a real life-and-death fight, by your own admission you'd be dead right now, which was Clements' point. Is your opponent going to capitalize on the opportunity every time you leave yourself open? Of course not. But are you going to stake your life on the chance that he won't? If you look at the assassination attempt on Cruise in Last Samurai, he’s fighting with one sword and then he suddenly has two swords. The editing is done so well that at regular speed it seems like he’s picked up a second sword from the ground. It doesn't seem like it, they actually show him picking up the 2nd sword as he rolls past it, although it looks kinda fake, like his hand passes over the sword, and when he's standing he's got it in his hand. Even looking closely I couldn't actually see his fist close around the hilt. I think it is possible to create an entertaining fight and still have it be fairly realistic. My biggest pet peeve in almost every movie I've seen, fanfilm and Hollywood, is something Clements and so many others have said before: it almost always looks like the fighters are striking at each other's weapons rather than their bodies. Take a look at the moves in a lot of fights, and ask yourself, "if the defender hadn't blocked that attack, would it have actually hit him?" A lot of times, the answer is 'No'. -----signature----- "I have difficulty forming relationships with women because my last girlfriend was a filthy, vicious ice queen who ruined my life. Let's get naked." -- Love: The Movie Priceless.
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VoijaRisa Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 6/5/04 10:25am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	From your own experience, that 360 move has a 40% success rate. More importantly it only had a 20% failure rate. That's about the same as everything in swordfighting. Every move has it's counter and if your opponeny can exploit it, you will get hit for it. Spinning around, if done intelligently (not Obi-Wan's raise my saber over my head thing), can be no more dangerous than allowing your head to be open for a moment while you attack your opponent's legs. -----signature----- "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance." ~Terry Pratchett
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VoijaRisa Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 6/5/04 11:05am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	[/i]I've seen a lot of sword fights with SCA. They're boring to watch. One or two hit fights are not fun.[/i] I've seen a lot more than you have I'm sure. And it really depends on the fight. I've seen fights that have beaten any choreographed fight I've ever seen. You're right that the one or two hit fights aren't as fun to watch, but it helps to have a trained eye to pick out why it ended in 1 hit. When you can pick up on all the subtilties of an SCA fight, even the short ones become amazing. However, 99% of the world has no idea on these subtilties and everything has to be overdramaticized for those people. Which is movie fighting. But there's no reason that you can't have both a realistic fight and a exciting one. Like I mentioned earlier, I've seen SCA fights that beat out any choreographed one because of the intensity. A particularly memorable one was with both combatants using bastard swords. It was extremely fast paced and ended up with both killing the other at the same instant. Very fun to watch. -----signature----- "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance." ~Terry Pratchett
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Jedi_Spiff Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 6/5/04 2:48pm Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	Hm. Okay, maybe he was talking about 360º spins. At any rate, the same philosphy applies to spinning kicks in many striking arts - the reason being not many people do them agressively enough because there's little control and the techniques are blind. When such techniques are appropriately used however, they are devastating. -Spiff -----signature----- "There are some things money can't buy. For everything else there's a Canadian taxpayer." - RCAF Now a member of the unofficial Master Zap fanclub. PwNN: http://wbm.zenutech.com/WBFilm/SWPlanet.html
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Jamball Registered: Feb '04	Date Posted: 6/5/04 3:23pm Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	When I was competing in Tae Kwon Do, I was able to effectively use a spinning side kick a few times. Of course, since I was going for a win, it was aggressive and as quick as possible. I've seen some black belts do spinning heel kicks with amazing speed and accuracy, and even though, for split second their back was turned, the other person didn't have time to attack. This makes me think that a spinning move with a weapon shouldn't be much different. --Jamball -----signature----- http://www.unseenhands.com -- We've got some cool flicks and cool music. Check it out! Don't feel bad about chasing fat people, they could probably use the exercise.
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