Jedi Council Forums - New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman

Locked Topic | Read Only Topic | Previous Active Topic | Next Active Topic

Author	Topic: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
VoijaRisa Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 6/10/04 8:50am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	[/i]Trying to actually hit your fellow stuntman is just stupid.[/i] But making it look like you're trying to hit him isn't. Unfortunately, there's way to much saber bashing out there. Not just in fan films. The entire Yoda/Dooku fight was just stick bashing and once I got over the initial shock of Yoda fighting, I realized this and how much that fight sucked. -----signature----- "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance." ~Terry Pratchett
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Plurimus Registered: Apr '99	Date Posted: 6/10/04 7:57pm Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	I was so annoyed reading the pontifficating self-righteous dribble of someone who has no experience in artisic swordplay for the stage or screen. At least have the guts to say who you're talking about. And your post doesn't sound self-righteous? Zap -- you must be a genius. -----signature----- Sic Anima Tecum Author of: Shimmering Sword: Samurai, Western & Star Wars Sword Fighting http://www.ShimmeringSword.com Lightsaber choreographer for Revelations http://www.panicstruckpro.com/revelations
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Covax Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 6/10/04 9:35pm Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	There never will be a perfect answer to reality/fantasy aspect in theatrical combat, but for me it’s mainly due to current desire and trends. You can enjoy a realistic run-and-gun battle in Heat and still enjoy the gunkata in Equilibrium because they serve as contrasts to each other. Too much of one and you’ll get bored and crave the other. Bruce Lee was always ‘at war’ with the idea of Wu Xia (read: wirework) films, he wanted dirty, gritty and realistic combat, not ballet. And yet, decades later, we have Couching Tiger Hidden Dragon, Hero and the upcoming House of a Thousand Daggers. Wu Xia ain’t going anywhere, but it shouldn’t be the only interpretation of martial arts. I see it as very bipolar. Same with video games, first we have shooters like Doom and Duke Nukem, where the genre gears towards bigger and louder, when suddenly Rainbow 6 shows up with ‘one shot one kill’ logic. Then you see the games shift to that style until the Unreal Tournament and Jedi Knight games come around. The we’re back down to Counterstrike and Ghost Recon. And back and forward and back again... until today where we have, not only a whole range but the ability to customise games to balance our current reality/fantasy craving. Making movies follows a similar logic, one that I believe depends on preference in production/direction style. You have a bunch of examples to point to and as the work progresses you should decide what fits the overall theme of your film. You can’t keep everyone happy, so you have to deside for yourself where you sit on the Reality-Fantasy line. What gets the message across better? You can hire on a choreographer (or even a separate director like Kevin Smith is doing for Green Hornet) but as a producer it’s your job to make sure the choreography is coherent to the story. I mean, personally if I was doing a SEAL Team 6 vs Taliban Soldiers I wouldn’t want them to whip out katanas vs scimitars. That-just-doesn’t-work. On the other hand a 2 move lightsaber fight is a waste of time. What was the purpouse of the fight with Darth Maul? He was a "bad guy", and they opened a can of whoop-ass on the "bad guy"... well duh. Eh... I’d like to presume to understand the intent, that if the Jedi/Sith fight in TPM was more ‘personal’ it would miss the point, the ‘well if this was a typical police action in the Galaxy how do you explain this Sith then?’ idea. I’ll agree that the AotC duel could have had more story depth than “I’m fighting my master’s master’s master” deal. I personally love telling a story though a fight. One of the reasons that Crimson Flame is so appealing is that we have these two guys fighting and their history isn’t the focus of the movie. The challenge (read: fun) then lies in trying to show how each fighter evolved from the core style, which would give you (if you care about that kinda thing) clues as to their history. That is... in-between the stick-thwackin’. -----signature----- Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can do neither, critique. http://www.Key-Pixel.com
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Plurimus Registered: Apr '99	Date Posted: 6/11/04 2:48am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	Thank you, Covax, for a constructive post. The negative posts in this thread have worked my last nerve. The spirit of Clements essay are meant as friendly advice. He doesn’t say fan film sword fights are bad, but that they could be made better. And when push comes to shove, I can say that I would trust his judgment on anything to do with sword fight combat choreography over the entire collective experience of this thread with myself included. And trusting his judgment doesn’t mean I or you have to agree with anything or everything Clements suggests. There is a lot of bad sword fighting in fan films. And it’s usually because of lack of practice and/or not enough “acting” by the stuntmen/sword fighters. Uh, yes. Acting is required. There’s nothing worse than a competent (or even superb) fighter who looks into the camera or gets embarrassed in front of the lens. Covax, I so much like the fact that you brought up computer games. You don’t know how many people have come up to me and suggested some first person sword fight game. Games today are certainly visually compelling in their graphics but utterly boring in their perfection and simplistic moves. Too perfect in that every head strike is a perfect and exact copy of the previous head strike. And simplistic in that I know sword fighting is not limited to a handful of about a dozen moves based on two, four, or six buttons. We all know in this thread that there are an infinite number of attacks, basic and special moves, and combinations to sword fighting choreography. Creativity will NEVER be exhausted. For this reason, any fan film is more interesting (no matter how good or bad it is) than a video game. But the one thing where video games usually succeed is that the little pixel guy does all his moves well. When you don’t do a sword fight well, you pull your audience out of the movie. In this sense, it doesn’t matter whether your fight is eye candy or an integral part of the story, a fantasy, fantasy/reality hybrid, or pure realism. Just execute it well. And banging sticks together isn’t doing it well. It may be fun, but it’s the least interesting of fan film fights. One of the best “lightsaber” fights I’ve seen in a fan film is in American Jedi, a spoof of American Pie. There is no extended fight but just a few moves spoofing lightsaber fighting with lacrosse sticks. I love watching lacrosse because the control of the stick, apart from hand positions, exactly mimics the cut of a sword. The combination of vector, force, and torque needed to make a ball roll out of a lacrosse stick net is that same used to get a cutting slice from a sword. It’s also like casting on a fishing rod. And the way to block a sword cut is the same as catching a lacrosse ball. You don’t lock and brace your arms like they are steel (which jars your bones). You collapse your blade slightly (I’m talking millimeters) so that your sword matches the speed of the opponent’s blade and then put power into the sword to hold and prevent the blade from hitting you. And watch their foot movement. Their knees are bent, they’re bodies drop slightly because they know someone else might crash into them. They know how to move on a dime and they have the finesse of in-fighting with their sticks. -----signature----- Sic Anima Tecum Author of: Shimmering Sword: Samurai, Western & Star Wars Sword Fighting http://www.ShimmeringSword.com Lightsaber choreographer for Revelations http://www.panicstruckpro.com/revelations
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
AllenReturns Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 6/11/04 3:06am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	well put- I'm sick of people whose extent of research is limited to anime, video games, and poorly made films. Here's someone who is an expert in the field and for some reason people still think they can do it better. Check your ego's at the door and take some valuable advice when it is offered in friendship. -----signature----- Guns for show. Blades for a pro.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
VoijaRisa Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 6/11/04 7:03am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	Here's someone who is an expert in the field I think what people are saying is that this tutorial was not written by someone who's an expert in the field. At least in the field of cinematography. He may well know all sorts about swordfighting, but proclaiming to know what looks good in a film based on what works irl, is a bit off. That being said, I think the biggest point this artice was trying to make was that duels are becoming so much about the big flashy moves aspect, that when you look past the whole fancy moves part, it's completely fake, with attacks that, even if the person being attacked didn't bother to block, could never hit, sloppy, repetative attacks, and many things like that. So don't look at the tutorial as a "this is everything you need for a lightsaber fight" tutorial, but more as a "here's the realistic aspects you should try to incorporate" tutorial. -----signature----- "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance." ~Terry Pratchett
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Covax Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 6/11/04 7:07am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman - Date Edited: 6/11/04 7:08am (1 edits total) Edited By: Covax
	You don’t know how many people have come up to me and suggested some first person sword fight game. Games today are certainly visually compelling in their graphics but utterly boring in their perfection and simplistic moves. Too perfect in that every head strike is a perfect and exact copy of the previous head strike. The Jedi Outcast/Acamey games were fairly cool espescially if you crank up the damage value of all lightsabers. [shameless plug]Like in my last mod. [/shameless plug]. The lightsaber (or whatever weapons you replacec it with) exists as an object in space so you have to time your strikes and your blocks accordingly. Boosting the damage means that any shmuck with a lightsaber can kill you if you're stupid. It gives you a good sense of 'sword tactics', which is too often ignored in fanfilms... ("ya know... if I'm fighting three guys maybe I should choose better ground..."). One of these days I should finish that 'Covax's Combat Corner' article... -----signature----- Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can do neither, critique. http://www.Key-Pixel.com
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Covax Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 6/12/04 7:03pm Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman - Date Edited: 6/12/04 7:05pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Covax
	A good example of a tough choice on the fantasy-reality line is the new GI Joe fanlim Special Missions 2. Any other military-themed film I'd like to see authenticity in the hand to hand stuff, like Sambo or Krav Maga but maybe not in this case. That's because they're trying to remain faithful to the source material. And that... is a trick. Because with fan films we're not only dealing with our own reality (i.e. if there were real Jedi they'd act like this) we've got to deal with a make belive reality... and out of the two create a third, our own. It's not our interpretation of a source reality but a new reality of our own. And thus, we have to be responsible for it. If you've got to break cannon to tell your story your way, do it. Compromises tend not to work. Personaly I like to keep each character in my stories as real as possible with two exceptions: The Protagonist and the Antagonist. They get to have the facy wirework and improbable luck and corny lines since the story is about them acting out our fantasies. Since they are singled out by the nature of they story they are already 'apart' form normal reality... and so the rules that chain the rest of us down don't apply. -----signature----- Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can do neither, critique. http://www.Key-Pixel.com
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Plurimus Registered: Apr '99	Date Posted: 6/13/04 7:09am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	I think comic books have made a recent influence on film as well because it has a different pull in the reality versus fantasy issue. The Hulk has multiple window panes (like a comic book), Dick Tracy's costumes and sets were based on elemental colors (from comics), etc. Especially with new digital capabilities, there's a new tension on how real or fake to make characters. Fully realistic people are not yet perfected. You can see in in Anakin on that creature in the waterfall scene. There are knights and horses thrown around in Return of the King that still look digital. And for Shrek, I heard they had to make the princess look like a cartoon because they first tried to make her look as realistic as possible and it didn't work well with the other digital characters. One of the biggest problems is making our eyes believe what our brains know aren't possible in this world. For example, when Anakin does a Force jump across the hall in AOTC, he still looks fake (at least to me) because I know he can't do that in reality. And the digital creation didn't convince me either. But I did believe it when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon did their Force fun on the Neimoidian ship at the beginning of AOTC. What is real? What is not? Its a question of fooling our intellect. When the intellect is not fooled because of a visual cue, we are immediately pulled out of the film. The people who did the Dune re-make didn't try to perfectly create precise movement in their space age fighting style. Instead, they added a blur which represented movement that we humans cannot comprehend, which in the end made me believe that their super power movement was real. A blur might seem like a cheap cop out for not being able to perfect digital movement of characters, but at least it succeeds in the story telling because it doesn't pull me out of the film. This is also the reason why GL doesn't like to use wire stunts. When we see someone on screen do something unnatural, our intellect tries to find a resonable explanation for it. In this case, because we know how the movies like Crouching Tiger are made, we automatically say "wire stunt" in our head. GL obviously thinks ILM can made up for what a stunt wire tick won't do, but in order for us to be fooled, the stunt needs to be hidden within overwhelming visual action so our brain doesn't have time to register -- fake. I think this happens with the oliphants in Return of the King. I was so blown away by the visual action that I didn't have time to think about how fake they were. During the scene where Faramir retreats from Osgiliath, there are only a few Nazgul and lots of real horses running across a field. There, because there were so few focal points on the screen, it is easy to discern the real horses-running footage from the digital (Nazgul) inserts. If "Hollywood" still has difficulties, how much more difficult is it for fan films whether amateur or professional. -----signature----- Sic Anima Tecum Author of: Shimmering Sword: Samurai, Western & Star Wars Sword Fighting http://www.ShimmeringSword.com Lightsaber choreographer for Revelations http://www.panicstruckpro.com/revelations
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Crunchy Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 6/13/04 7:21am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	^^Qui-Gon was in AOTC?? -----signature----- Ryan Dube Who is the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows it? A RISING THREAT™ site: http://www.arisingthreat.com/ ART™ forums: http://bmcforums.image22.net/index.php ART™ online store: http://www.arisingthreat.com/store.asp
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Covax Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 6/13/04 9:23am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman - Date Edited: 6/13/04 10:05am (1 edits total) Edited By: Covax
	What is real? What is not? Its a question of fooling our intellect. When the intellect is not fooled because of a visual cue, we are immediately pulled out of the film. On a tanget, the opposite is also true: movies have effected how we perceve real life. For example we're so used to seeing a guy get shot and blow back 5 feet with one bullet that Police Officers, when they shoot a guy and he dosen't fall back they 'reflexively' assume that they miss. And so then they keep firing, hence the satastics that guys shot by cops tend to be riddled with bullets. So, to quote ol' reliable Yoda, they have to unlearn what they belive is real at the police academy. -----signature----- Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can do neither, critique. http://www.Key-Pixel.com
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Plurimus Registered: Apr '99	Date Posted: 6/13/04 9:31am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	Qui-Gon was in AOTC?? Oops! Meant TPM. Please don't take my SW fan club card; the one with Yoda on it, Crunchy -- don't be such a smart butt with an A (Am I allowed to say that?) movies have effected how we perceve real life. Ya, know. That's so true. -----signature----- Sic Anima Tecum Author of: Shimmering Sword: Samurai, Western & Star Wars Sword Fighting http://www.ShimmeringSword.com Lightsaber choreographer for Revelations http://www.panicstruckpro.com/revelations
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Crunchy Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 6/13/04 10:00am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	Isn't the Yoda card expired?!?! -----signature----- Ryan Dube Who is the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows it? A RISING THREAT™ site: http://www.arisingthreat.com/ ART™ forums: http://bmcforums.image22.net/index.php ART™ online store: http://www.arisingthreat.com/store.asp
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Plurimus Registered: Apr '99	Date Posted: 6/13/04 4:18pm Subject: Yoda is 2003
	You're right Crunchy. The Yoda card is 2003. What's the 2004 card? -----signature----- Sic Anima Tecum Author of: Shimmering Sword: Samurai, Western & Star Wars Sword Fighting http://www.ShimmeringSword.com Lightsaber choreographer for Revelations http://www.panicstruckpro.com/revelations
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
AllenReturns Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 6/17/04 4:11am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	Something that people keep repeating is that Stage combat isnt the same as real combat. This is so true. However, in the context of the film, we are supposed to believe that this form of combat is real and has been practiced and perfected for hundreds and hundreds of years. The suspention of disbelief is snapped everytime someone turns their back to their opponent, or does some big overhead chop when all that was needed was a fast thrust. Stage combat is different because people dont do their homework and we have generations of fight directors trained from Errol Flynn movies and sport games like olympic fencing and kendo- which really is just a game of tag. The point is that I believe almost all film directors that have any kind of fight scene in their movie, want it to be believable. Fortunate for most directors, most people have no idea what sword combat is like- therefore they can get away with crap like, The Mask of Zorro, The Last Samurai, and Troy - because the audience and director are ignorant. So you can let that ignorace be bliss or learn something here, become educated and show us something that we havent seen before- and happens to be alot more practical than spins and twirls. -----signature----- Guns for show. Blades for a pro.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History