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Author	Topic: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
Covax Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 6/17/04 6:49am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman - Date Edited: 6/17/04 6:55am (2 edits total) Edited By: Covax
	Pretty much, but it isn't always 'crap'. Like if a studio would force a "no 360-degree turns while in fight" rule onto the movie Hero (I'm lookin' right a you Miramax) that would just kill the spirit of the film. So you can let that ignorace be bliss or learn something here, become educated and show us something that we havent seen before- Wait exacly two weeks... -----signature----- Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can do neither, critique. http://www.Key-Pixel.com
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I_will_kill_you Registered: Jun '04	Date Posted: 6/17/04 1:38pm Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman - Date Edited: 6/17/04 1:43pm (1 edits total) Edited By: I_will_kill_you
	"Well...ummm. When they were at the door and it opened, and Darth Maul appeared I guess they could've ran away and left Padme to be slaughtered... that would give the Jedi a really good name. Obi-Wan had a pretty good reason to fight Maul... seeing as Maul killed his master and all... They were not on a path to a clear goal, and going through the door wasn't a clear point on the clear path to a clear goal. And the fight was just a fight. It dodn't have the deeper meaning of the ANH fight. The ANH fight WOULD have just been a fight, if Obi-Wan hadn't sacrificed himself intentionally. And Dooku taunts Obi-Wan in Episode II's duel. Empty, meaningless taunts yes. Nothing with any dramatic depth." And you lead a unclear life leading to an unclear death that nobody will care about. And work on your spelling My opinion on sword fighting is: If you want it real, it won't be flashy and spinny, it won't look like anything you have ever seen in a movie, real sword fights would never involve banging two swords together, thats just insane, it would dent and crack you sword. Its just a "git-r-done" fight, if you want it flashy, and dramatic and crap, then spins and fancy pancy moves work.
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Jedi_Spiff Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 6/17/04 1:54pm Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	Wait exactly two weeks... Heh heh heh... Mua ha ha ha haaaahhh. -Spiff -----signature----- "There are some things money can't buy. For everything else there's a Canadian taxpayer." - RCAF Now a member of the unofficial Master Zap fanclub. PwNN: http://wbm.zenutech.com/WBFilm/SWPlanet.html
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scudknight Registered: Apr '00	Date Posted: 6/17/04 2:40pm Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	I skmimmed over a few of the paragraphs in this essay and I had to dismiss the lot if it. There was too much to compare itself to choreographers as opposed to the real thing. While I am neither a fan of the ARMA group or SCA, both groups have produced a few worthy people. I did also enjoy the article of a knight vs. samurai. This article seemed to describe ways of improving the art of stage fighting by using real world techniques without using any real examples. Mind you I read it as a casual reader would. I think it was an eager article that should be given a true test and then re-written. In the meantime I like stuff like this and hope to get some helpful words in the future from members of the industry. Oh, and uh, Zap you rock! -----signature----- AQOF2 - DallasKnight Productions http://www.dallasknightproductions.com "I'm not perfect or saved, baby. So suck it." - Wil Wheaton Watnoose!
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AllenReturns Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 6/17/04 11:22pm Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman - Date Edited: 6/17/04 11:25pm (1 edits total) Edited By: AllenReturns
	Wait two weeks....? Im intruiged- can we get a hint? You mentioned above Mr. Clements dosent really offer suggestions on how to change it. I think that its because that kind of info would take way too long for the article to draw out. Even with that one you said you skimmed it. His suggestion is that you study period manuals (Things like Joachim Myer, I.33, Gladiatioria, Fiore Liberi, Hans Talhoffer, Vadi, Ringeck, Hector Maier and a myriad of others) and learn to fight from those as opposed to learning from other films- most of which have little to no background in actual combat. All these historical manuals are easily available online as well as many books to help with the interpretation of them. If you are interested in finding these manuals ask me and I can give you the links if you want. -----signature----- Guns for show. Blades for a pro.
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VoijaRisa Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 6/18/04 5:04pm Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	I think it'd be valuable enough to people here that you just post the links in the forum. -----signature----- "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance." ~Terry Pratchett
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Covax Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 6/18/04 9:19pm Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	Wait two weeks....? Im intruiged- can we get a hint? Sure. The title for our TFN Workshop project is S.U.M.T.. Be on the lookout. -----signature----- Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can do neither, critique. http://www.Key-Pixel.com
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AllenReturns Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 6/18/04 10:44pm Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	I think it would get more attention if it was S.M.U.T. - but I'll look for it Here are some links to period swordplay manuals: this is AEMMA:http://www.aemma.org/library_top.htm they have tons- just click on the button of what century you are looking for and you will get a list of several manuals to look at. Here are the ones hosted on the ARMA site: http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm again, many to choose from here. This is a book company called Chivalry Bookshelf. They have several books and comentaies on several of the manuals. Most of these are fantastic resources if you dont happen to read 14th century German http://www.chivalrybookshelf.com/ -----signature----- Guns for show. Blades for a pro.
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Plurimus Registered: Apr '99	Date Posted: 6/19/04 5:13am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	Remember when looking at primary sources, you should not believe everything that you read (and most these books require a historical background). Even if you can figure out the text, you have to understand that any fighting manual is propoganda for their style of fighting and that learning from a book is in no way compares with first hand instruction. Even Clements has to admit that his interpretations of techniques from old manuals are just that - his interpretations. Re-creating fighting techniques may or may not help the contemporary fight choreographer. And there's ample opportunity to create a false-positive technique, one that appears to be authentic but isn't. From my own experience, understanding the fundamental of a technique demonstrated live requires years of experience to understand the principles. Discerning those principles (especially when explained in a foreign language or a language used hundreds or a thousand years ago) requires even more experience and training. I think most choreographers are looking for techniques that look cool. They don't care whether or not there's any real application. RvD, Gillard's choreography, and ILM's Yoda all fit that expectation. -----signature----- Sic Anima Tecum Author of: Shimmering Sword: Samurai, Western & Star Wars Sword Fighting http://www.ShimmeringSword.com Lightsaber choreographer for Revelations http://www.panicstruckpro.com/revelations
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Covax Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 6/19/04 2:14pm Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	I think it would get more attention if it was S.M.U.T. That is the first part of the joke. There are a few other 'layers', for example what those letters stand for are another kind of joke, and how it applies to the movie is another. When you've had two months you tend to over-analyze your own material... Even if you can figure out the text, you have to understand that any fighting manual is propoganda for their style of fighting and that learning from a book is in no way compares with first hand instruction Same like any history. Still, propaganda is useful if you're developing a character. Like a berserker fighter would carry himself differently than the gentleman fencer or silent assassin. Stuff like how they behave in retribution a strike is something we could guess at but it's useful to have some background. -----signature----- Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can do neither, critique. http://www.Key-Pixel.com
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AllenReturns Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 6/22/04 3:30am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman - Date Edited: 6/22/04 3:32am (1 edits total) Edited By: AllenReturns
	The only one that i can think of that can really be considered propoganda is any of George Silver's manuals. He's always bagging on the Italian's. While these manuals may have some political adgendas to them their main purpose was to teach people to maim and kill. There is no way that we can come up with stuff that is more effective than what they used. You are right that most fight choreographers dont care about historical accuracy. That's why we get moronic looking fights that look more like a game of pattycake as opposed to something that can pass as lethal. That's why we get lame movies with Arthur swinging a two handed sword. Thats why we get a movie about Troy with steel weapons. That why we get a movie about medieval Scots that wear kilts. Thats why it looks silly when we see fights with weapons as fast and as deadly as lightsabers, weilded by highly trained, sense hightened warriors, spinning around, exposing their backs and leaving holes in their defence the size George Lucas' bank account. Cause it 'looks cool' and no one wants to put effort into doing their homework. The fact is that when done by people who know what they are doing, these period moves do look cool. If used it will add a sense of lethality and realism that I think any self-respecting director or fight choreographer wants. Unfortunatley most are content with being sheep and doing what everyone else is doing, 'cause it looks cool'. Reminds me of middle school. -----signature----- Guns for show. Blades for a pro.
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Plurimus Registered: Apr '99	Date Posted: 6/22/04 5:04am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	Re: propoganda and George Silver's Fencing manual The fencer, especialy one who examine's the fencing style of others (whether from training with an instructor or parsing technique from old manuals) with the intention of eclectically expanding a person's repertoire, MUST look at any instruction with skepticism. He must become like the historian who cannot simply believe everything he reads and hears. A good fencer must evaluate technique within the context of the time, its intention, and its actual utility. That's not to say a student should challenge their instructor to the point of obstinancy. Rather he can still maintain perfect respect and still remain a critical observer. Because of the combative nature of fencing and because of the history of charlatans who have taught fencing, a mature fencer must evaluate technique and decide for him/herself. I don't care if you're Agrippa, the Comte de Jarnac, or Voltaire. I'm going to evaluate whatever you say about fencing technique and decide for myself. Even with my own book, I offer a lot of conclusions about fencing and the lightsaber fighting SW. You don't have to accept them (you shouldn't unless my arguments are compelling) simply because I wrote it and am trying to be an honest interpreter. European fencing manuals developed during the early days of the printing press. Up until that point, fencing instructors were terribly protective of their techniques. It prevented ruffians from learning how to put teeth in their coercive ways, and it garnered a myterious reputation for the man. With the printing press, the manual could now travel across the continent where others could evaluate what was written, and if they liked it the reader would perhaps travel to that instructor or bring the instructor to his city. That's in fact what happened in the European capitals in the 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries. I use the propoganda in the sense that commerial advertising is propoganda. They both have an agenda. All writing could be seen this way, but particularly with fencing manuals, the writer had a specific goal, which was to say that their technique was better than that of others. Even Clements has to admit that his interpretations of the text are his interpretations. From my readings of Clements', he evaluates old manuals with the intention of discerning useful, fighting techniques. But with the huge influence of tradition in the European fencing circles, who's to say in this day and age that some of Clements' re-created martial techniques weren't actually effete and simply for show. My feeling about Clements' based on his many essays on sword fighting is that he loves European swordplay and he wants to be one a growing group of contemporary individuals who want to bring credibility to European fighting which compares to the Eastern traditions of Japan and China. Thus, they've coined the word European martial art. Nothing wrong with that. But he's doing what I suggest all mature students of fencing do, evaluate for yourself. Beginners should shut up and learn what they can. What's wrong in one school of sword fighting might be right in another school. I'm not being flip about that. The philosophical understanding of technique and human physiology in one school may be incompatible with a particular movement. All fencing techniques are not universal. The lunge was "invented" by someone, the parry-riposte is a contrast to the Italian school's simultaneous attack/defense, verbalizing during a fight is unique to particular schools (kiai) or a particular individual. People have identified one of my instructors by the things I say during fencing bouts. What usually happens with contemporary books on both Eastern and Western martial arts is that the best quotes from "standards" get quoted over and over again to the point that everyone, amateurs and experts alike, begin to accept everything they say. Musashi gets mentioned as the great swordsman all the time, Zen instructor Daisetzu Suzuki is often cited, George Silver is mention a lot, as well as Richard F. Burton's Book. Perhaps Musashi's techniques were good (I hear citations to his cart with two wheels often), but as a member of society, he died in miserable isolation, which is extremely un-Japanese in their tight social system. Suzuki never did any sword though he drew from it for his Zen teachings (a very Japanese thing to do, BTW). Richard Cohen (who wrote the recent book By the Sword calls Silver "ultraconservative, formidably combative, and unashamedly xenophobic" (p. 32). Burton's book lives on because it's freely carried by Barnes & Noble as one of their "period" books on swordplay; a book which was considered so boring that Silver was not encouraged by his publisher to do the successive two books on European and then Asian swordplay. I'm sure people have your own ideas about me based on my book. And, like Silver, I remain formidably combative. Reminds me of middle school. LOL I agree that people need to do their homework, but there's nothing wrong with playing around too. I've found that being in this forum has made me less critical of fan film sword fighting. The people here are well intentioned and pretty mature about things. Let's face it, there are a few here who will be making the future Master & Commanders and Troys. There's more substance in the fan film forum than there is in... say the EP spoilers thread. -----signature----- Sic Anima Tecum Author of: Shimmering Sword: Samurai, Western & Star Wars Sword Fighting http://www.ShimmeringSword.com Lightsaber choreographer for Revelations http://www.panicstruckpro.com/revelations
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AllenReturns Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 6/23/04 1:29am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman - Date Edited: 6/23/04 1:44am (3 edits total) Edited By: AllenReturns
	I agree with several points and less so with others. I hadnt noticed until now that you had a book. I'll take some time to read it and hopefully better understand where you are coming from. I agree that many of the masters kept their techniques as secret as possible. Thats a big reason Fiore dei Liberi wrote Flos Duellatorum with the poetic lilt he did. I agree that a book is just a book and does not guarantee sucsess in the fight. There are far too many people who ascribe to one technique or another without ever lifting a blade or doing any kind of serious training. Sport fencing is not rapier fencing. Kendo is not iaido. A dowel rod or rattan is not a bastard sword. Padded boffer swords are nothing worthwhile. When you get right down to the training and execution of the fight- politics are out the window. It either works or it dosent. You win or you lose no matter if you learned to fight in a bar or you had your sensei fill your head for 25 years with dribble about mysticysim and zen and all that. You still have to hit the guy. Thats why back in the day and more importantly now, schools (or clubs and organizations) are made to instruct by those who know more. Any honest scholar understands that the study of history has to be able to change. The legendary Ewart Oakeshott was constantly making revisions on his work up till the day he sadly passed. Some of his work in his early days is in direct contradiction with later works of his because he discovered and learned more. A true sign of a scholar. Just for the record and for whatever its worth, I found Richard Choens book, By the Sword extremley flat and based more on an armchair observation of the fighting arts as opposed to someone who has spent countless hours putting it to practice. I havent read any of his other writings but I wonder if hes taken the time to actually use Silver in some sparring with accurate weapons and the like. I have encountered several people who complain about many of the longsword manuals only to find out they are trying to do it with shanai or rattan or something. -----signature----- Guns for show. Blades for a pro.
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Plurimus Registered: Apr '99	Date Posted: 6/23/04 4:40am Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman
	I found Richard Choens book, By the Sword extremley flat and based more on an armchair observation of the fighting arts as opposed to someone who has spent countless hours putting it to practice. I'm with you on that. That's what happens when the book is more of a life reflective, all-emcompasing booking about the art. It's definitely a secondary source with his interpretations of things, but I have unexpectedly found it more interesting than I originally thought. I haven't got into the samurai section yet, and I await with trepidation. I did like the fact that he mentioned St. George and D'Eon. The unusual thing is that in all of his politeness, he simply calls St. George a Haitian mulatto, instead of a negro. Of course, he focus on St. George's fencing prowess, but he doesn't even challenge history by saying that he lived in a world which was belligerently racist society -- France. (Not a dig at France, but an observation. I could say the same about the US. Lived in France, live in US. Love both.) The attraction of D'Eon as a transvestite was given a section for obvious titilating interest. I have to admit that I don't like very many books on fencing. Most fencers (and martial artists in general) write because they feel compelled to write. Rarely do they have the skill. I've collected books here and there and most try to be comprehensive books with a very dry style. Nice books about fencing bore me. Apologia are far more interesting because of the passion invested in asserting something instead of merely telling about it. I like the fact that Clements is quite verbal about his opinions and interpretations. -----signature----- Sic Anima Tecum Author of: Shimmering Sword: Samurai, Western & Star Wars Sword Fighting http://www.ShimmeringSword.com Lightsaber choreographer for Revelations http://www.panicstruckpro.com/revelations
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AllenReturns Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 6/23/04 10:24pm Subject: RE: New lightsaber combat tutorial by a professional swordsman - Date Edited: 6/23/04 10:28pm (1 edits total) Edited By: AllenReturns
	Agreed- speaking of which... Some one sent me this link to this fantastic article on dispelling myths about Japanese swords and matrial arts. Very simple, straingforward, necessary, and for a large part- correct! This would really benefit all who are reading and have even a passing interest in swords. http://www.jref.com/culture/sword.shtml I had one of those great sword moments you love to tell around the campfire, the other day. While chatting with someone who was a bit too into anime and Jap culture (or what the movies told him was japanese culture), he stated that he knew a technique where you could hit someone with your 'chi'. I really tried not to laugh but it didnt work. I replied that I suppose that could happen as i felt I could certainly smite with my id. -----signature----- Guns for show. Blades for a pro.
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