Jedi Council Forums - Four different flavors of help needed (3DS MAX/Character Studio)

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Author	Topic: Four different flavors of help needed (3DS MAX/Character Studio)
RocketGirl Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 3/12/05 6:38pm Subject: Four different flavors of help needed (3DS MAX/Character Studio)
	Okay, I've reached a very happy place in the making of Star Wars: The Last Remnants...the major set piece--that being the capital city of Ularen, where the action takes place--is DONE! (I'll be posting pictures in a day or two when I have less of a headache that feels very similar to having your head cleft in twain by a bloody giant fan-blade.) However, there is one problem that has been plaguing me for months now that I can't bloody solve, and I'm hoping someone here can give me a tad of advice or three. See, I'm trying to animate a Stormtrooper using Character Studio, but the armor is a pain in the pudu-chute. Specifically, the goin-plate or codpiece. See, it has to move based on the movements of two legs, not just one, and for the life of me I can't seem to get it to work. Applying Physique to it doesn't work; I can't get it to retain its shape, even when setting the verts to rigid. Applying a Preserve modifier to force it to retain its shape doesn't to a damn thing. Using Reaction Controllers doesn't really seem to work either, though I'm not sure if I'm using them properly; the tutorial is kind of arcane. And speaking of arcane, Cloth Simulators--the shareware/freeware ones, anyway--have the most indecipherable, arcane, non-helpful, and uninformative documentation I've EVER encountered...and that's saying a lot considering some of the docs I've had the misfortune to have to get through in my life. I don't know if cloth simulation is even the way to go since I'd like a solution that doesn't require processing. But even if it is the best solution, I'm totally lost. Heck, I can't even figure out how to make, say, a cape, because the docs don't tell you have to attach a cloth to a specific point on the body... I'm stymied. Right now it's looking like my options are: 1) Give up II) Never show Stormtroopers above the waist C) Make my Stormtooper armor flexible and hope nobody notices or 4) Ask advice on TFN. SOMEbody must've animated a Stormie before and can tell me how they did it Is there a way to make an object take it's position/orientation from the anverage of two other objects? Is there another method I don't know about? HELP...! Thanks. -----signature----- Introducing new Dark Side RocketGirl™: Quicker, Easier, More Seductive!™ "Duuude, the fat guy totally just blew up!" -Pink Five My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/BionicDance Read my webcomic: http://kanirabaxter.comicgenesis.com/
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Dub273 Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 3/12/05 6:53pm Subject: RE: Four different flavors of help needed (3DS MAX/Character Studio)
	If I were attaching stormtrooper armor to a Character Studio skeleton, I wouldn't use Physique or the Skin modifier or any of that jazz. I'd simply use the "Select And Link" tool to attach the codpiece of the armor to the pelvic bone of the biped. In fact, this is probably what I'd use for every single component of the armor. Each piece is inflexible in and of itself, so best practice would probably be to link the helmet directly to the head bone, the chest plate to the Spine 3 bone, etc. Perhaps for the feet, hands, and fingers, you might make an exception and use Physique. (You do know the tool I'm talking about, right? "Select and Link"?) And by the way, don't feel stupid or frustrated or any of that. We aren't born knowing this stuff. Took me weeks to get up and running with CS, and I still have to scratch my head and stare at it for some time to get anywhere. -----signature----- ==\dub/== http://www.dub273.com
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RocketGirl Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 3/12/05 7:06pm Subject: RE: Four different flavors of help needed (3DS MAX/Character Studio)
	See, I wish it were that simple. But in general, the pelvic bone of the Biped object doesn't move much at all. It's the movement of the legs that will really affect the crotch-plate the most...but there's no way to parent something to TWO objects, at least not that I've ever found. I wish it were that simple--just link/parent the object to one other object--but the solution you just described would have results that wouldn't solve the problem: the cod-piece will remain still even when the leg-bones should be moving it, and the body-glove mesh underneath the armor will pop through the groin-armor because it isn't moving along with the legs. But thanks for trying, at least. -----signature----- Introducing new Dark Side RocketGirl™: Quicker, Easier, More Seductive!™ "Duuude, the fat guy totally just blew up!" -Pink Five My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/BionicDance Read my webcomic: http://kanirabaxter.comicgenesis.com/
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Vigilante74 Registered: May '04	Date Posted: 3/12/05 7:11pm Subject: RE: Four different flavors of help needed (3DS MAX/Character Studio)
	Are you limited to the Character Studio rig? -----signature----- I will drink no beer before its time... it's time. Beer and for Alana.
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Antilles01 Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 3/13/05 2:57am Subject: RE: Four different flavors of help needed (3DS MAX/Character Studio)
	I'm not very knowledgable about Character Studio but it sounds to me like you might need to use expressions to control the codpiece's position and rotation. You can take some variables, like the amount of rotation of the leg bones, and through some function of those values you end up with the position and rotation you need....boy that was helpful wasnt it. Im sure someone on some max/3d forum can help you. -----signature----- Brian Webb Freelance Rotologist "Surely you can do better!"
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Dub273 Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 3/13/05 8:49am Subject: RE: Four different flavors of help needed (3DS MAX/Character Studio) - Date Edited: 3/13/05 8:51am (2 edits total) Edited By: Dub273
	See, I wish it were that simple. Character rigging and animation is NEVER simple, no matter what the newest software hucksters would have you believe. But in general, the pelvic bone of the Biped object doesn't move much at all. I would have to say, then, there must be some kind of serious flaw with either your Biped rig or the way you're animating it... because the pelvis should drive almost EVERY action of your stormtrooper, from posture to ambulation. That's the reason why the pelvis object is the focal point of any Biped rig, and it's the reason 3D character animators start with the pelvis and work their way outward. If the pelvis ain't moving, then chances are you really need to move it yourself -- manually if necessary. (The CS walk and run cycles, while adequate starts, usually need a whole lotta pelvic lovin' before they read properly.) It's the movement of the legs that will really affect the crotch-plate the most... It shouldn't, though. The pelvis should be driving the legs, and not the other way around, except in certain IK situations (i.e. the trooper is dangling by his leg). The legs don't change their position relative to the pelvis -- they are its slaves, and only exist to keep the pelvis from crashing to the ground! and the body-glove mesh underneath the armor will pop through the groin-armor because it isn't moving along with the legs My (remote) diagnosis of the problem is the application of the physique modifier on the under-armor, not the other way around. Focus your attention on the under-armor's Physique settings for starters, and don't by shy about rotating the pelvis. -----signature----- ==\dub/== http://www.dub273.com
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G-Unit Registered: May '04	Date Posted: 3/13/05 10:19am Subject: RE: Four different flavors of help needed (3DS MAX/Character Studio) - Date Edited: 3/13/05 10:19am (1 edits total) Edited By: G-Unit
	I believe Zap and TheRealFennshysa have both animated stormtroopers for their films. You could try pm-ing them. -----signature----- Aaron Greer-Director/Writer/Producer http://www.nexthorizonfilms.com/ "I'd rather direct than produce. Any day. And twice on Sunday." Steven Spielberg Current Project- Gatekeeper
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RocketGirl Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 3/13/05 4:10pm Subject: RE: Four different flavors of help needed (3DS MAX/Character Studio)
	Character rigging and animation is NEVER simple, no matter what the newest software hucksters would have you believe. [b] Oh, I disagree. Character animation is usually as easy as my mom when the rent is due. That's why this is so frustrating...much as I love a challenge, this has become nearly the bane of my existence, this one thing. Going through the docs and tutorials, I can't find a damn thing in MAX that'll allow one object to have its transforms determined by two others' unless the first object is meant to deform. [b] I would have to say, then, there must be some kind of serious flaw with either your Biped rig or the way you're animating it... because the pelvis should drive almost EVERY action of your stormtrooper, from posture to ambulation. That's the reason why the pelvis object is the focal point of any Biped rig, and it's the reason 3D character animators start with the pelvis and work their way outward. But the pelvis isn't the focal point of the Biped object. Granted, it might as well be since the Master Bip Node is centered on the pelvis and really doesn't move much relative to it. In a weird way, the pelvis (or the main Bip node) is redundant, at least as far as animation is concerned. If the pelvis ain't moving, then chances are you really need to move it yourself -- manually if necessary. (The CS walk and run cycles, while adequate starts, usually need a whole lotta pelvic lovin' before they read properly.) You misunderstand. I animate by hand-keyframing the Biped objet; I find the the built-in CS functions are, honestly, counter-intuitive as hell and they often get in the way more than they help. I get much better results if I do it myself, and in truth I tend to think of the Biped object more as a very convenient bones generator for character animation. Physique is a very powerful tool, but it's the only half of CS that I really value. When I say that the pelvis doesn't move much, I mean that I generally don't keyframe it to do a damn thing. The main biped node inside it I move all over the place in lieu of moving the pelvis. In general, when my charcters walk I only animate the legs rather than turning the pelvis along with them, then move the main biped node to change the character's position. True, this isn't skeletally correct, but the results look right, and that's really what matters. It's also significantly faster and easier, more efficient. It shouldn't, though. The pelvis should be driving the legs, and not the other way around, except in certain IK situations (i.e. the trooper is dangling by his leg). The legs don't change their position relative to the pelvis -- they are its slaves, and only exist to keep the pelvis from crashing to the ground! Again, you misunderstand. The legs are what are moving when the character is walking for the most part. They are certainly what are colliding with the cod-piece, and what would be moving it around. They are what it should be reacting to; the groin-plate is attached to the pelvis, but it's the movement of the legs that are changing it. My (remote) diagnosis of the problem is the application of the physique modifier on the under-armor, not the other way around. Focus your attention on the under-armor's Physique settings for starters, and don't by shy about rotating the pelvis. Perhaps I should have started by being a lot more specific about how this character-rig is set up. Yes, Physique is on the bodyglove; that is how it was meant to be driven from the origina design concept. And, yes, most of the armor is simply parented to the bones rather than being driven by Physique because, yes, that would be overkill and redundant. The only reason Physique was ever used on the crotch-plate was as an experiment to see if Phsyqieu could be used to achieve the rather elusive results I've been having trouble achieving. The basic idea was to try setting every vertex in the codpiece to rigid and then assigning them all to the leg bones and the pelvic bone and giving them all equal influence. I expected that the codpiece would retain its shape because of the rigid setting for the verts, but would still attempt to "deform" based on the relative positions/orientations of the legs and the pelvis. The actual results I got were hilarious, but completely useless. (The codpiece would atually split down the middle when one of the legs was moved.) The codpiece is also not the only object that this is an issue with. There's a, um...I d'know, a butt-plate? Whatever, it's the opposite side companion piece that rides on the Stormie's bum. No matter how the pelvis is moved, this piece is still going to have issues during walking; the bodyglove is going to pop through as the stationary leg hits the farthest part of the walk cycle unless the buttplate can change its orientation based on the legs...even if the pelvis moves it. So far, the only solution I've found to any of this is to cheat by making the majority of the pelvic area of the Stormie non-deforming, keeping a sort of bikini-shaped area completely still and only allowing the legs to deform the bodyglove area at all. This solves the problem of the bodyglove popping through the codpiece, but it looks kind of odd. And it doesn't solve the problem--which will asuredly come up again, even if not with this Stormtrooper--of how to force an object to take its orientation and position from the orientation of more than one objet. I can think of many situations in which being able to do this would be deeply useful, but MAX seems to be built in such a way that it simply isn't possible... -----signature----- Introducing new Dark Side RocketGirl™: Quicker, Easier, More Seductive!™ "Duuude, the fat guy totally just blew up!" -Pink Five My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/BionicDance Read my webcomic: http://kanirabaxter.comicgenesis.com/
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Dub273 Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 3/13/05 5:13pm Subject: RE: Four different flavors of help needed (3DS MAX/Character Studio)
	But the pelvis isn't the focal point of the Biped object. Well, actually, it is -- or rather, should be... at least, this is what any seasoned character animator will insist. But, that is maybe a URL for another time. And no, I'm not misunderstanding what you're trying to do... I just think you're going about it the wrong way. However, if you get results you're happy with, then hey... more power to ya! And it doesn't solve the problem--which will asuredly come up again, even if not with this Stormtrooper--of how to force an object to take its orientation and position from the orientation of more than one objet. I can think of many situations in which being able to do this would be deeply useful, but MAX seems to be built in such a way that it simply isn't possible... Yes, it is possible, but not using Character Studio, which doesn't use the traditional MAX constraint system. If you're going to use the legs as your basis for the codpiece rotation, my suggestion would be to link the mesh to the pelvis, and then apply an orientation constraint (under the Rotation controller) to that mesh, using the left and right calf gones as your target. As long as you keep the initial offset, the rotation of the codpiece mesh should be the average of the positions of each leg. (In fact, I've just tried something similar, and it did seem to work.) I don't think this is going to solve your under-armor problem, but it might be worth a try. Let us know! -----signature----- ==\dub/== http://www.dub273.com
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RocketGirl Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 3/13/05 5:36pm Subject: RE: Four different flavors of help needed (3DS MAX/Character Studio)
	Well, actually, it is -- or rather, should be... at least, this is what any seasoned character animator will insist. But, that is maybe a URL for another time. Well, it's not, technically speaking. The Biped skeleton has a root node which, yes, is centered on the pelvis, but is not the pelvis object of the Bip. And no, I'm not misunderstanding what you're trying to do... I just think you're going about it the wrong way. Even if I am, the solutions you've discussed won't actually solve the problem. Yes, it is possible, but not using Character Studio, which doesn't use the traditional MAX constraint system. If you're going to use the legs as your basis for the codpiece rotation, my suggestion would be to link the mesh to the pelvis, and then apply an orientation constraint (under the Rotation controller) to that mesh, using the left and right calf gones as your target. As long as you keep the initial offset, the rotation of the codpiece mesh should be the average of the positions of each leg. (In fact, I've just tried something similar, and it did seem to work.) Ah, now that is the information I think I was after. I've been muking about with controllers but the only ones that seemed at all relevent were Reaction Controllers, and you couldn't set more than one React To target. I don't think this is going to solve your under-armor problem, but it might be worth a try. Let us know! Wel,l the thing is I'm not having a problem there that won't be solved by solving the rotation problem... Thanks for the hint, anyway. -----signature----- Introducing new Dark Side RocketGirl™: Quicker, Easier, More Seductive!™ "Duuude, the fat guy totally just blew up!" -Pink Five My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/BionicDance Read my webcomic: http://kanirabaxter.comicgenesis.com/
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Dub273 Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 3/13/05 7:13pm Subject: RE: Four different flavors of help needed (3DS MAX/Character Studio)
	I said earlier to use the Orientation constraint for the codpiece, but I actually meant to say the Look At constraint. Procedure is same, though -- keep initial offset and add the left and right calf BONES (not "gones"... danged fingers). Mayhaps the orientation constraint serves you in that capacity; I didn't try it. -----signature----- ==\dub/== http://www.dub273.com
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MasterZap Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 3/14/05 2:27am Subject: RE: Four different flavors of help needed (3DS MAX/Character Studio)
	RocketGirl, didn't you make one of these threads before? Anyhow, in these threads it was posted that for most (all?) stormtrooper armour ever made, the Codpiece is actually part of the main body, and doesn't actually move one iddy bit vis-a-vis the chest (et al) plate. Concordantly, 'tis hence uniquivocably so, that if you are havi'n these problems, thou areth doing something a stormie couldn't really do in reality. Also, doesn't this "error", if even detectable, survive through the cel-shading approach you are taking for TLR? /Z -----signature----- mental ray Tips blog - http://www.mentalraytips.com ZapTroNic Visuals - http://www.ZapTroNic.com Oldschool Homepage - http://www.Master-Zap.com FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER - http://twitter.com/masterzap
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Dub273 Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 3/14/05 5:49am Subject: RE: Four different flavors of help needed (3DS MAX/Character Studio)
	Zap, how did you rig your dancing 'trooper? Were you using Character Studio? I was going to say something about the limited mobility of a stormtrooper myself, but I guess you beat me to it. On the first day of the Revelations shoot we had a bunch of the 501st down there, and none of them could even sit down between takes. Then there were the shots where they were supposed to be running. Oh my, a fast shuffle was about the best any of them could do... they looked kinda like penguins waddling along from where we were sitting. Then again... perhaps if a CG approach can lead to a more flexible stormtrooper, then hey. -----signature----- ==\dub/== http://www.dub273.com
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MasterZap Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 3/14/05 7:44am Subject: RE: Four different flavors of help needed (3DS MAX/Character Studio)
	Zap, how did you rig your dancing 'trooper? Were you using Character Studio? Indeed. Default rig straight off scifi3d, slapped on stock mocap, didn't touch a single dial (except I applied my own materials to it and my own lighting system and whatnot). Noone complained about any pelvic penetrations. (I never heard anyone complain over those, actually ) I had issues w. gimbal flopping on the elbows instead, which was more due to the nature of the dance mocap than anything else. /Z -----signature----- mental ray Tips blog - http://www.mentalraytips.com ZapTroNic Visuals - http://www.ZapTroNic.com Oldschool Homepage - http://www.Master-Zap.com FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER - http://twitter.com/masterzap
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