Jedi Council Forums - Lightsaber Impalement

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Author	Topic: Lightsaber Impalement
inkpenavenger Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 12/28/06 3:14am Subject: Lightsaber Impalement
	I've got some scenes wherein a character is stabbed through the chest or stomach with a lightsaber. The method I've thought of for shooting these scenes is to 1) Film the impaler with a full-length prop stabbing at nothing to reference the blade length 2) Film the impaler with a shortened prop stabbing at the impaled actor 3) Rotoscoping the full-length blade and compositing it onto the second shot. If this is the easiest/best way to do this effect, let me know. It just feels like there's a more KISS method that I'm just not noticing. -----signature----- Revan sounds like a girl's name anyway... www.youtube.com/inkpenavenger www.fanfiction.net/~randomphantasm www.myspace.com/gothamknights_wod
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neo_mp5 Registered: Feb '04	Date Posted: 12/28/06 3:23am Subject: RE: Lightsaber Impalement - Date Edited: 12/28/06 3:24am (1 edits total) Edited By: neo_mp5
	well, the easiest way is to just stab the full length prop under the other guy's arm, and shoot it from the side actually, i take that back. the easiest way is with a close-up on the face and a sound effect. another would be a shortened prop from the front, eliminating the back from the equation altogether. -----signature----- You rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles. my sound videos now on youtube! http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=neomp5
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YodaSmeagol Registered: Mar '05	Date Posted: 12/28/06 7:43am Subject: RE: Lightsaber Impalement
	Your method sound like it is very specific, which is not bad, but just complicated. More complicated than it has to be. I am assuming that this is a camera angle from the side, no? If so, then I suggest just have your impalee be stabbed with the shortened lightsaber blade. Then, in After Effects or whatever program you're using, start the mask at the handle then extend the mask to go further out the other side. Then mask out the part of the lighsaber that overlaps your impalee's torso. Or you can create a 2 masks for it: one for the side impaling him, and one for where the blade comes out the back, which you could most likely estimate position well enough. Estimating length is easy, position isn't. Either way, just rotoscope in the whole blade as if it were all there. If that doesn't make sense, watch Ryan vs. Dorkman. When Ryan gets stabbed at the end, this is how they did it (well maybe not exactly, but the same idea). Hope this makes sense. -----signature----- Life is pain. Anyone who tells you differently is selling something. Movies are great.
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-Phi- Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 12/28/06 10:21am Subject: RE: Lightsaber Impalement - Date Edited: 12/28/06 10:25am (1 edits total) Edited By: -Phi-
	Just shoot it without a saber prop at all, and rotoscope it in, just like an ignition sequence. It's a little harder to animate, but it is possible. Imagine for example this shot, but just letting the blade go right through as opposed to turning it off. The beauty of this method is that you can have camera movement and all kinds of shake and other excitement. Then you leave it to the animator to struggle through it. If they say it's impossible, make them watch "Who Framed Roger Rabbit," tell them it was all done by hand, and that they are lazy buggers for not doing so. Just to clarify, I have personally done a whole slew of shots with this kind of technique, including a sequence with 5 blades on screen, two of which didn't have any props at all, where all the collisions were handled by mime. -Spiff -----signature----- Why did the cross the möbius strip? LCC Archive: http://www.fanfilms.phispace.net/LCC/Archive.html http://Kiva.org ~ Be a Loaner
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1337mik3 Registered: Jun '04	Date Posted: 12/28/06 10:50am Subject: RE: Lightsaber Impalement
	I would do it with half a blade... this way, it obviously shows it goes through the actor, it also helps the one stabing stabalize his arm, so it keeps it in place, and it will wrinkle up the shirt of the person getting stabed, that always looks cool. -----signature----- aim/videomik3 http://www.MichaelFrisk.com It is possible to fail in many ways...while to succeed is possible only in one way. -Aristotle
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durbnpoisn Title: TFN Staff Ca st & Crew Database Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 12/28/06 1:34pm Subject: RE: Lightsaber Impalement
	Or, you could create a collapsing prop blade for that one specific shot. Make a quick cut, before changing props, to make it less obvious. And the collapsing prop can be as simple as having the back of the hilt hollow, with no securing on the blade, so it just slides out the back. No chance of jamming and injuring your actor that way. And then, the only things you need to do are, mask out the blade protruding from the back of the hilt, and assume-roto the blade coming out the other side. That's how I'd do it. -----signature----- Fan Films Database: R.I.P. Cloning in AE: http://www.durbnpoisn.com/films/cloneTut/index.asp My Star Wars Fan Films: http://www.durbnpoisn.com/films
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StevenBills Registered: Jan '06	Date Posted: 12/28/06 1:53pm Subject: RE: Lightsaber Impalement
	1337mik3 posted: I would do it with half a blade... this way, it obviously shows it goes through the actor, it also helps the one stabing stabalize his arm, so it keeps it in place, and it will wrinkle up the shirt of the person getting stabed, that always looks cool. Just do it this way. It's less complicated, and it is practical. SB -----signature----- http://www.billsfilms.com "Whether you think you can or think you can't - you are right." - Henry Ford My Vimeo Page (all HD) ---> http://www.vimeo.com/user453456/videos
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durbnpoisn Title: TFN Staff Ca st & Crew Database Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 12/28/06 1:56pm Subject: RE: Lightsaber Impalement - Date Edited: 12/28/06 1:56pm (1 edits total) Edited By: durbnpoisn
	But, a lightsaber blade would not wrinkle the shirt. It would burn it. And there is also the added complication of the aggressor having to pull his blow (to avoid injuring the victim actor). So, all in all, that method would fail in terms of realism even if it did turn out to be easier. If you have to swap props anyway, go with a collapsing blade. -----signature----- Fan Films Database: R.I.P. Cloning in AE: http://www.durbnpoisn.com/films/cloneTut/index.asp My Star Wars Fan Films: http://www.durbnpoisn.com/films
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StevenBills Registered: Jan '06	Date Posted: 12/28/06 1:57pm Subject: RE: Lightsaber Impalement
	Look when Ryan(1) gets stabbed in RvD1. The shirt wrinkles, and it added a nice effect. It looked cool. -----signature----- http://www.billsfilms.com "Whether you think you can or think you can't - you are right." - Henry Ford My Vimeo Page (all HD) ---> http://www.vimeo.com/user453456/videos
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Robi-Wan Registered: Oct '06	Date Posted: 12/28/06 2:07pm Subject: RE: Lightsaber Impalement - Date Edited: 12/28/06 2:14pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Robi-Wan
	StevenBills posted: Look when Ryan(1) gets stabbed in RvD1. The shirt wrinkles, and it added a nice effect. It looked cool. Sure, but it would in fact burn the shirt, and no wrinkles would appear. Since the blade is laser it wouldn't actually keep in place. The movement of the stabbers hand would burn a bigger hole unless he is very steady in his hands. I remember seeing Yoda throw his saber into a clone in Episode III. I was SO disapointed when the saber didn't slide downwards cutting the clone in half. And for an effect-suggestion: Stab the full-length prob behind the actor beeing stabbed and roto the saber onto the body. That way you can also see the prop on the other side of the stabbed one. This must of course be filmed from the side. (and once again we have my famous bad english explanation) -----signature----- Registered May '06. http://youtube.com/RobinHeiberg http://soundclick.com/RobinHeiberg http://facebook.com/Robin.Heiberg Music doesn't need to be complex or complicated, as long as it sounds good.
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durbnpoisn Title: TFN Staff Ca st & Crew Database Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 12/28/06 2:09pm Subject: RE: Lightsaber Impalement
	I'm speaking purely from opinion here, and nothing else. I don't think that's the way it would happen. Whether it happened in RvD that way or not, doesn't enter into it. I think the shirt would not move as if a prop were shoved against it. I think it would burn completely out of the way. Did I mention this is just what I think? -----signature----- Fan Films Database: R.I.P. Cloning in AE: http://www.durbnpoisn.com/films/cloneTut/index.asp My Star Wars Fan Films: http://www.durbnpoisn.com/films
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StevenBills Registered: Jan '06	Date Posted: 12/28/06 2:19pm Subject: RE: Lightsaber Impalement
	I used the method in one of my saber fights, and it didn't look too real, and it was limited to one camera position. I guess it just comes down to personal taste, and what looks better for the situation. SB -----signature----- http://www.billsfilms.com "Whether you think you can or think you can't - you are right." - Henry Ford My Vimeo Page (all HD) ---> http://www.vimeo.com/user453456/videos
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Robi-Wan Registered: Oct '06	Date Posted: 12/28/06 2:25pm Subject: RE: Lightsaber Impalement - Date Edited: 12/28/06 2:26pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Robi-Wan
	I really think you could've pulled it off there if you didn't stick the hilt so much behind him. -----signature----- Registered May '06. http://youtube.com/RobinHeiberg http://soundclick.com/RobinHeiberg http://facebook.com/Robin.Heiberg Music doesn't need to be complex or complicated, as long as it sounds good.
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StevenBills Registered: Jan '06	Date Posted: 12/28/06 3:27pm Subject: RE: Lightsaber Impalement
	Yeah, it was a combo of the bad angle, and bad acting by me bro. Oh well, that was a first video. -----signature----- http://www.billsfilms.com "Whether you think you can or think you can't - you are right." - Henry Ford My Vimeo Page (all HD) ---> http://www.vimeo.com/user453456/videos
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DorkmanScott Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 12/28/06 4:58pm Subject: RE: Lightsaber Impalement
	Logically, yes, the shirt should burn through and there should just be a hole. It wouldn't wrinkle because it wouldn't be pressed against his chest, it would hang freely. If I recall correctly, the "stub" we used in RvD was actually intended more to provide a consistent reference point -- if he didn't have something right against his body, the tip could potentially move all over the place and end up coring him out like an apple. We wanted to have a straightforward stab with as little motion as possible. I think we even considered removing the wrinkles around it, but that proved to be too much of a pain and so we just left it. Strangely, that's actually something to which people respond positively almost 100% of the time. Despite the fact that it doesn't make sense if you think about how lightsabers work, I think it might actually look strange, and too much like "an effect," without the interaction. It reads better as a "stab" that way. M. Scott -----signature----- Yes We Did http://www.ryanvsdorkman.com Check out my blog: http://dorkmanscott.wordpress.com
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durbnpoisn Title: TFN Staff Ca st & Crew Database Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 12/28/06 6:20pm Subject: RE: Lightsaber Impalement - Date Edited: 12/28/06 6:22pm (1 edits total) Edited By: durbnpoisn
	I certainly am not trying to begin an argument as to the physics of lightsabers. Ever since my first post on this matter, I have said, this is purely a matter of opinion. And as such, my opinion is as follows: No matter what you've seen before, you have to plan your shot based purely and completely on what YOU as the director see as a realistic shot. My opinion on that matter is that there should be no shirt wrinkle. Granted, my solution will not provide for that any better than the others. I'm only pointing out that a shirt wrinkle will actually draw attention to the effect. And, if you want the effect to be, uh, effective... You don't want anything obvious showing where and how the effect took place. It's just something to think about. The devil is in the details. And little details like that, can sometimes ruin an effect if not accounted for in the planning stage. And Mr. Scott himself has now pointed that out in the form of where he an Ryan considered the means of covering it. Consider my opinion on this to be another helpful suggestion, no matter what method you should choose in the end. -----signature----- Fan Films Database: R.I.P. Cloning in AE: http://www.durbnpoisn.com/films/cloneTut/index.asp My Star Wars Fan Films: http://www.durbnpoisn.com/films
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